RIA Treaty Cancellation

[Prodigal Moon]

You Virians ought to be grateful to RIA (and Rok, andCB) for making your mind up for you.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1302286361' post='2686967']
You Virians ought to be grateful to RIA (and Rok, andCB) for making your mind up for you.
[/quote]

Say again?

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302286333' post='2686965']
I keep trying to make this about ideas and you keep rubbing your pants and talking about me. I did not lead Browncoats, I was a GOONS spy who happened to be the MoFA. Lamuella took over after I left at the conclusion of the Bubblegum War, talk to him about the disbandment, not me. Cult of Justitia is an organization founded upon ideals and which acts upon them, and it membership is comprised of rulers who are attracted by those ideals mostly in spite of me; they are former Senators of GATO, Presidents of GPA, founders and Senators of Vox Populi, NPO MilCom, and Sith Marauders (etc) not the feeble-minded fanclub you'd love them to be. As an organization we've united post-Moldavi-Doctrine Red, stood up to alliances 100 times our size, and never backed down from our ideals despite their tendency to make life very difficult. Any struggle we face is an inner struggle to prune ourselves, cultivating ourselves consciously. We live as free rulers never having asked for permission to exist and neve signing away our sovereignty. Whether we had 2 nations or 30 we have always done exactly what we want to do, our success is not in numbers.[/quote]

Keep telling yourself that.

[quote]
You must be a poor, lost soul if you don't understand why I am discussing foreign affairs in a treaty cancellation thread. Maybe Goldie can explain it to you, the mustache tells me he's a smart guy. This is the alliance politics forum, it is where anyone and everyone discusses mattters of alliance politics. We come here and talk about ideas and philosophies, to argue and to debate, to announce and to discuss. If you are incapable of doing those things, there are places where you can leave your brain on the bar and talk about your favorite band. Foreign policy is not propaganda, nor is it "ADD" in a foreign affairs thread.
[/quote]

It's not a matter of understanding, its a matter of questioning your veracity. Looks like you forgot where this conversation started, which was you trying to agree with Chief that spite comments from third parties have no place in a cancellation thread, which was ironic since you run around acting like a disingenuous self absorbed clown whose existence is driven by spite and personal angst, further exemplified by the fact that you agreed with Chief's comment while wearing a spite avatar and spite signature which you only dawned after your first post in this thread. If you want to talk about policy, go for it, but that simply hasn't been at the core of our conversation so far here.

For future reference, I believe this venue has a mechanism for reading previous pages of discussion in a thread. Try and use that from now on so I don't have to recap.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1302284587' post='2686944']
[color="#0000FF"]What exactly has RIA pulled lately? Quite honestly they're one of the few respectable alliances in your corner of the world. The last war I saw nothing but class coming out of RIA, and in a completely stupid situation (and I cannot empathize enough how utterly idiotic that entire war was), RIA defended and assisted each of its allies. What are you condemning them for? No longer wishing to be associated with your club?[/color]
[/quote]

That's because you were not involved in any planning on our side. And they have not just made mistakes in this war, they made a couple of them just before it. But I'm not here to kick RIA in the ground.

[chefjoe]

Congrats RIA

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1302284587' post='2686944']
[color="#0000FF"]I hate to interject in a (former) lovers' quarrel, but no, not really. I love to interject. I am in neither VE nor RIA, but even I saw that there was trouble in the relationship. You need only have paid attention to some of the things said by RIA members last war. It doesn't take much to see when a relationship is starting to go sour.

Anyway, I don't think this is as much of a shock to you as you say it is. I know that you're not a stupid man. You saw this coming as well, and as much as you might like to blame RIA for not doing anything to remedy the problems, let me ask you, what did you do? I'm willing to bet nothing, because quite frankly James Dahl is right. Ever since VE shacked up with PB, you've simply had friends with more political sway. VE finally has the kind of power that it has wanted for years, and it just doesn't need its old allies as much.

You may say I'm full of it, but I'm only saying what I've heard. Not from RIA, no. I really don't talk to them all that often, but you do have other allies, both current and former, who have noticed a change in VE since it joined PB.[/color]
[/quote]

You would loose that bet. And yes, I was aware of some type of member discontent, though I was not made aware of any specific concerns, feelings, or troubles and we were not made aware of the severity of it. As for what we did, about a month ago we went over for a frank QnA. Short story short, it died after two pages, and within those pages we only got favorable responses to the misconceptions which were addressed (mainly about RIAs role in planning), no hint was ever given about feeling second rate. I asked their gov to get their members asking more questions so we could make sure there were no more issues, yet none came, and as such we assumed the biggest problems they had were already solved.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not "blaming" or "faulting" RIA, as I think applying concepts such as those in this situation is inappropriate. Disappointment is much more of an apt word, and that disappointment is not in them as an alliance but in the fact the death of this very long and productive treaty could have been avoided. Part of the disconnect perhaps lies in the fact that they are a direct democracy, and much of our interaction was on the government level.

None of our allies are second rate, or third rate, etc. All of them are held equally. The distinction lies in perception, not in reality, and the development by their membership of such a perception could have rightly been avoided is all.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302287375' post='2686976']
It's not a matter of understanding, its a matter of questioning your veracity. Looks like you forgot where this conversation started, which was you trying to agree with Chief that spite comments from third parties have no place in a cancellation thread, which was ironic since you run around acting like a disingenuous self absorbed clown whose existence is driven by spite and personal angst, further exemplified by the fact that you agreed with Chief's comment while wearing a spite avatar and spite signature which you only dawned after your first post in this thread. If you want to talk about policy, go for it, but that simply hasn't been at the core of our conversation so far here.

For future reference, I believe this venue has a mechanism for reading previous pages of discussion in a thread. Try and use that from now on so I don't have to recap.
[/quote]
I'm wearing this avatar to show my support for VE as they lose an old friend My sig has an old meme, but it's content is the root of where VE is today, which is exactly what I have been saying. VE has always paid lip service to one spectrum of ideals and loosely tried to align itself to alliances doing the same or who espoused the same, but it is now aligned to another spectrum. Policy has been the core of my side of this conversation for 4 pages, my personage has been the topic of your replies.

e: I'll even change out of my costume if it helps you focus.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Bob Janova]

It is disappointing to be cancelled on for something which boils down to 'we don't like your bloc', particularly considering our long history of backing up SF even without being in the bloc or particularly aligned to its interests.

RIA are one of the few SF (and ex-SF) alliances that I actually quite like, so this is a shame.

James Dahl, you made a wonderfully eloquent post but unfortunately it didn't have much to do with what actually happened. As Impero says we value all our allies (and in fact our detractors RV and Schatt have something of a point when they say we get our political position tangled up by doing so), and we specifically came over to talk to you to address any issues you may have had.

[Ryan Greenberg]

Any treaty cancellation between two alliances on the scale of VE and RIA is always interesting to see. The fact that the cancellation was [i]apparently[/i] brought upon by RIA's negative view on Pandora's Box/Doomhouse adds even more intrigue to it. Good luck to both.

o/ RIA

Edited April 8, 2011 by Ryan Greenberg

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302288361' post='2686987']
I'm wearing this avatar to show my support for VE as they lose an old friend My sig has an old meme, but it's content is the root of where VE is today, which is exactly what I have been saying. VE has always paid lip service to one spectrum of ideals and loosely tried to align itself to alliances doing the same or who espoused the same, but it is now aligned to another spectrum. Policy has been the core of my side of this conversation for 4 pages, my personage has been the topic of your replies.
[/quote]

No, policy has been the veil you have tried to shade your selfish personal motives behind for 4 pages, just like you do in pretty much every other thread around here. Of course your personage has been the topic of my replies, because I'm not some 7th grader who eats up every word you say because you did TWIP 3 years ago. Every reply you make, at its foundation, is to further your personal vendettas, so addressing it is unavoidable. Like I said before, as a person whose existence is driven by spite and personal gripes but has utterly failed at cultivating an alliance to execute them, replies with ulterior propagandist motives are all you have left to further your aims. Since every reply you make is wrought from your own internal struggle with inadequacy, insecurity, and personal failure in the modern world, every reply should be made in kind.

Also, if your sig is the root of what you have been saying, how can you turn around and say in the very next sentence that the policy of separating treaties from friendships has been the topic of your replies? Come on now, that doesn't even make sense. Go make a blog on it or something, no one really buys your garbage anymore.

[Schattenmann]

[size="1"][quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302289373' post='2686993']
No, policy has been the veil you have tried to shade your selfish personal motives behind for 4 pages, just like you do in pretty much every other thread around here. Of course your personage has been the topic of my replies, because I'm not some 7th grader who eats up every word you say because you did TWIP 3 years ago. Every reply you make, at its foundation, is to further your personal vendettas, so addressing it is unavoidable. Like I said before, as a person whose existence is driven by spite and personal gripes but has utterly failed at cultivating an alliance to execute them, replies with ulterior propagandist motives are all you have left to further your aims. Since every reply you make is wrought from your own internal struggle with inadequacy, insecurity, and personal failure in the modern world, every reply should be made in kind. [/quote]
Schattenmann orchestrated the realpolitick cancellation of the RIA-VE treaty in order to manipulate the ensuing announcement to his personal propaganda message. Brilliant.[/size]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1302289031' post='2686990']
It is disappointing to be cancelled on for something which boils down to 'we don't like your bloc', particularly considering our long history of backing up SF even without being in the bloc or particularly aligned to its interests.[/quote]
Bob, let's get real: VE applied to SF twice (or at least once depending on who's telling the story) and had treaties with at least 3 of the members of SF (GOD, RIA, RoK and maybe I missed more). RIA on the other hand has no interest in being in PB, and PB's imperialist ambitions are a far cry from SF's laid back role in the world. The two situations are not anywhere near comparable, and as I said to kriek if VE didn't like being stuck to SF's hip, they were just as able to clean up their FP and cancel their treaties as RIA is.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Schattenmann

[King Xander the Only]

I'm disappointed to see this. Good luck to both of you.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302289387' post='2686994']
Schattenmann orchestrated the realpolitick cancellation of the RIA-VE treaty in order to manipulate the ensuing announcement to his personal propaganda message. Brilliant.
[/quote]

Was that suppose to be funny or could you just not think of anything else to say? I mean its really nothing even close to what I said or inferred.

Lets try again, this is what I posted and what you were replying to:

"No, policy has been the veil you have tried to shade your selfish personal motives behind for 4 pages, just like you do in pretty much every other thread around here. Of course your personage has been the topic of my replies, because I'm not some 7th grader who eats up every word you say because you did TWIP 3 years ago. Every reply you make, at its foundation, is to further your personal vendettas, so addressing it is unavoidable. Like I said before, as a person whose existence is driven by spite and personal gripes but has utterly failed at cultivating an alliance to execute them, replies with ulterior propagandist motives are all you have left to further your aims. Since every reply you make is wrought from your own internal struggle with inadequacy, insecurity, and personal failure in the modern world, every reply should be made in kind.

Also, if your sig is the root of what you have been saying, how can you turn around and say in the very next sentence that the policy of separating treaties from friendships has been the topic of your replies? Come on now, that doesn't even make sense. Go make a blog on it or something, no one really buys your garbage anymore."

By the way, you definitely should have kept the costume.

[Aurion]

I'm finding the "we supported SF so RIA shouldn't cancel on us!" rhetoric to be positively facepalm-worthy.

Just saying.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1302290044' post='2687001']
I'm finding the "we supported SF so RIA shouldn't cancel on us!" rhetoric to be positively facepalm-worthy.

Just saying.
[/quote]

I agree. Which is why you will predominately see it only from 3rd parties :x

Edited April 8, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Aurion]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302290158' post='2687006']
I agree. Which is why you will predominately see it only from 3rd parties :x
[/quote]


I know.

That doesn't mean I don't want to facepalm when I read it though!

Edited April 8, 2011 by Aurion

[eyriq]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302276111' post='2686833']
Times change. People change. You should know this better then most, since you went from being a respected and somewhat revered member of the community to an over the top joke of a human being who makes an ass of himself at every turn since he cant cope with the fact that the days of TWIP are over. We still hold a treaty with RIA, and still hold treaties and good relationships with all our other allies save Rok. We've done the things that are best for us, the things that needed to be done, and do not hold regret simply because a cancellation wrought of misconception without any attempt to make those concerns known may have came about as a result.

We are disappointed that this came to pass, but if there is any consolation, it's that we all get to see the ridiculous side of you that comes out every time you smell a VE thread in the air.
[/quote]

Haha, you mad. Don't pretend to degenerate Schattenmann, his worth is established and isn't going anywhere simply because you dislike him.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='eyriq' timestamp='1302290352' post='2687008']
Haha, you mad. Don't pretend to degenerate Schattenmann, his worth is established and isn't going anywhere simply because you dislike him.
[/quote]

I'm always mad, literally. Also, I disagree, and I'm not pretending to degenerate (did you mean degrade maybe?) him, I think I've been doing it pretty overtly.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1302290044' post='2687001']
I'm finding the "we supported SF so RIA shouldn't cancel on us!" rhetoric to be positively facepalm-worthy.

Just saying.
[/quote]


[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302290158' post='2687006']
I agree. Which is why you will predominately see it only from 3rd parties :x
[/quote]


[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1302290257' post='2687007']
I know.

That doesn't mean I don't want to facepalm when I read it though!
[/quote]

Are you two serious? Are you seriously this dumb?
The first "we supported SF" post is from [i]IMPERO HIMSELF[/i]:
[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302246879' post='2686631']
I understand your a direct democracy, but ask Delta how many situations I've worked with him on, both before PB and after.
[/quote]
The third is from Goldie, VE gov:
[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1302269345' post='2686739']
All I'll say, is when SF was on top of the world and doing its business, we took it in stride and helped you guys out with some questionable stuff, because you were our friends and allies. Now that you perceive the shoe on the other foot, you cut and run.
[/quote]

The second was from some Paragon guy[snapback]2686708[/snapback], and there's one from Kingwally, bringing the grand total of "'"we supported SF so RIA shouldn't cancel on us!'" as you put it to 50% VE, not "predominantly" third parties. Like, what is wrong with you?

[The Reccesion]

RIA is win!

Hiya Shadow

o/RIA

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302290943' post='2687012']
Are you two serious? Are you seriously this dumb?
The first "we supported SF" post is from [i]IMPERO HIMSELF[/i]:

[/quote]

The post you quoted is a reference to RIA's (and our) memberships perhaps not knowing the types of things our government worked together on, both before PB and after, and was responding to the assertion that we "stopped calling" after PB was formed. So yea, it says literally nothing about the point you were trying to make, and makes one VE member expressing the sentiment in question.

[eyriq]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302290535' post='2687009']
I'm always mad, literally. Also, I disagree, and I'm not pretending to degenerate (did you mean degrade maybe?) him, I think I've been doing it pretty overtly.
[/quote]

I don't know, I'll have to check, I most times just throw a word out there that feels right and if it doesn't get underlined in red I consider it a success. I'm also horrible at scrabble.

The main point that I'm making is really that Schatt's viewpoints have obvious value based on the past successes of his work, and supported by a sound analysis of his philosophy. Not liking him or what he says specifically in regards to your affairs isn't sound reason to disparage his character, and a narrative supported by said dislike isn't one that should be left unchallenged.

My emotions are like strings on a banjo, and your post happened to have hit a cord.

Edited: Couldn't stand the typos/bad grammar

Edited April 9, 2011 by eyriq

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='eyriq' timestamp='1302291484' post='2687015']
I don't know, I'll have to check, I most times just throw a word out there that feels right and if it doesn't get underlined in red I consider it a success. I'm also horrible at scrabble.

The main point that I'm making is really that Schatt's viewpoints have obvious value based on the past successes of his work, and supported by a sound analysis of his philosophy. Not liking him or what he says specifically in regards to your affairs isn't sound reason to disparage his character, and a narrative supported by said dislike isn't one that shouldn't be left unchallenged.

My emotions are like stings on a banjo, and your post happened to have hit a cord.
[/quote]

You may get quite upset if you read the rest of my posts after that one then. Also, once again, I disagree, and you should be able to find the rationale for my disagreement in my earlier aforementioned posts (I hate recapping, but I trust you can find them yourself).

[Prodigal Moon]

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1302287214' post='2686975']
Say again?
[/quote]
As Schatt has outlined in this very thread, VE's FA has been incoherent. Protect CB but join PB. Attack an ally's ally - which was almost inevitable. Try to be an unofficial member of SF and real member of PB. These are major potential conflicts. Either VE couldn't pick a side (tough when you stand for nothing) or is absolutely oblivious.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]VE applied to SF twice[/quote]
I'm fairly sure this isn't true, though I'll cede to more senior VEers on that one.

The rest of your post was pure rhetoric ('rawr imperialism boo VE') and not really worth addressing.

Aurion, if you're referring to my post, I didn't say they shouldn't, just that it is disappointing that they have, particularly without really talking it over with us at all.