Balkan Banania

[quote name='Daikos' timestamp='1298397804' post='2641806'] Not knowing your alliance has been at war for a month != surrendering during a war. [/quote] Not that it actually matters but I believe he is a ghost: wrong color, wrong flag, very recent AA. Of course his only way out is to surrender, although I find it a bit strange when I see ghosts surrendering, but meh…I suppose it is easier, logistical wise.

You are in this war as a collective entity (DH), so I don’t think anyone was expecting you to surrender. Apart from that I have to say that the feelings concerning this war seem the same no matter the side. We all enjoy it, some opponents are good, some bad, some just turtles (surprising my MKer was a turtle). Let’s keep dancing

I read the OP, and I though honorable move. Then I read some posts and I was like and , I thought I am not a native English speaker and maybe I didn’t understand, or people are more informed than me. Then all become clear and I can I stick with my first thought

[quote]The Phoenix Federation is everything and more that I would want in an ally. [/quote] I couldn't agree more, happy to fight alongside you again...Have fun.

[quote name='Telchar' timestamp='1297424086' post='2629244'] What stops them from importing tech? [/quote] Technically speaking nothing, but if you give it a thought, most alliances cannot cover even their own needs of tech. Also I don’t believe that any alliance will reduce its own growth rate in order to help alliances that they know will be antagonistic to them (in the long run) to maintain their main strategic advantage. On the other hand you never know and I am just speculating…so we will have to wait some months and see…It's not that we (both sides) are going anywhere, we have a war to fight.

[quote name='Telchar' timestamp='1297411123' post='2629150'] It's clear that Pacifica thinks they can keep their nations in peace mode and wait for you to give them peace. And why is that? It worked for them last time, in Karma. So don't give them peace and make them actually pay more for it, don't back out from your demands! [/quote] I think people try to bury the obvious. Pacifica knows that peace is not an option. We are not delusional, if we peace out and accept terms then we will slip to oblivion while at the same time we win nothing, as the past clearly manifest. Take it as you like but we have a culture, and according to our culture surrendering in this war, seeing how it has unfolded and foreseeing the post war era both politically and military wise, is not an option for us. We fight because we want, can (due to WC) and we are actually enjoying ourselves, there is nothing more or less to it. There is also a clear reason that most of our upper tiers are in peace and it’s called realism, there is no doubt for this in our minds. So the ones that are out of PM will keep nuking and having fun and the ones in PM will stay there bored. From my point of view and being a Banking nation in the past (when it mattered) I consider their sacrifice as far greater than mine.

The answer is rather simple: Yes really!, we are spineless, opportunistic cowards, imperialistic pigs and we deserve five years of continuous war and of low quality threads calling us out. Now that someone shown them the light, our allies should declare on us and get revenge for all the years that we abuse them. Also in the end of the five years war all Pacifica’s members should make a tattoo of Raman Mew Mew and post pictures, in order for this enlightened member of Umb to be, hopefully, satisfied. For real such low quality propaganda is difficult to find audience these days, expect maybe if ShinRa is still around... [quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1297370838' post='2628251'] It's a poor strategy if they want peace. [/quote] Obviously we don’t want peace, there is no reason to…

[quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1297326942' post='2627836'] A Pacifican with a sense of humour? What is this? [/quote] An abnormity, I will start an expulsion process as soon as possible. Bring the ropes…

[quote name='Richard Rahl' timestamp='1297104373' post='2624288'] If coming in on an MDP equals following someone else, then hasn't every alliance, including your own, that has come in on an MDP "followed someone else?" [/quote] I didn’t raise any objection, not that I could even if I had any, concerning this war. My initial post contained something like “An expected declaration and decision.”. My remark was along the lines, that TOP had some opportunities to become a healthy power pole in CN politics, but for some reason they skipped most of them following alliances like Gre, FOK, even NPO. Concerning the current situation, I believe that siding with MK was a logical move and they are not yet ready to claim their position, hence my remark “we will see”. I have to add, since you stated something about an MDP, that when you declare following someone that has started an aggressive war there is no way to present it as a Defensive move, so please let’s stop the MDP propaganda . Does it matters? No, is it a technicality? Yes, should people stop bending the truth so obviously? Yes please…it will make the OWF a better place. [quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1297102162' post='2624214'] It's not our fault that your government chooses to keep its membership very uninformed. [/quote] I don’t say that your stance towards Pacifica is unjustified, after all people perceive differently the same incidences, so you can never be sure what someone think is reality, and this may be applied both ways[i]([OOC] Kurosawa’s Rashomon present this concept in a brilliant way[OOC]). [/i]What I say is that it is an exaggeration and a bit rude to state that we threw you under the bus in the Karma war, since you got out of the war unaffected, while we had to survive several months of war and some heavy reparations. The analogy is Polaris stating that you threw them under the bus in the BiPolar war, or maybe FOK stating it. Also I hope Bodvar Jarl will start posting more.

[quote name='Mark Ashton' timestamp='1297077540' post='2623902'] meh. You can't accuse them of changing side every other war, because that would mean they are independent, AND accuse them of being meatshields at the same time. [/quote] I didn’t accuse TOP of anything, it may be my wording. I just think that several times in their CN carrier they start to build up a central alliance profile (playing the FA game etc) and somewhere in the middle, or close to the end; they just get bored and decide to follow someone else. Maybe it is me, who overestimate TOP's skills, or it is due to the way that the alliance works, or whatever...we will see.

An expected declaration and decision. My only problem is that TOP had and I believe still has the material and the skills to become a central CN alliance, and for some reason they cede part of their sovereignty to other alliances at the last time. Hopefully after this war they will actually decide to fulfill their destiny, if they are in a condition to do so of course. Apart from that I fail to see why you still try to play the victim in the Karma war, hell there is a post in your embassy stating that we threw you under the bus in the Karma war . Stop playing the victim, you are a big alliance stats wise, you should try and become a great alliance regarding politics as well. I don’t hold any ill will towards TOP, but obviously I am cheering for the other side, so I wish you the worst concerning your declarations

[quote name='Volgan' timestamp='1297020430' post='2622449'] And a few years from now. A small boy sits at a table reading a history book and asks "daddy, what was legion" whereapon his daddy replies "it was, it was someeething out of history Son. Why dont you go and check the tinternet" the little boy says "I have daddy, theres no sign of it anywhere". "Ahhh", says the young boys daddy "the ODN must have wiped the floor with them clean out of existance". [/quote] I found it depressing how the sentiments of alliance members change according to the wills of the leaders and the recent political games. This always comes to my mind when I see old allies biting each others throat: “[i]Oceania is at war with Eastasia, Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia". [/i]Get a spine people; Legion was an alliance very close to you, not too long ago. Wishing for its destruction by your own hands is like condemning your whole history, or accepting that you were never good allies.

I always enjoy seeing alliances that are self-defined as the beacons of morality in CN getting their hands dirty (I mean ODN, GR and Int), hopefully this will decrease the number of self-righteous and consequently idiotic posts. Good luck in our friends in Legion, I think this is an opportunity for Legion to reclaim their position as a central player in CN politics. Now if this an oA, an oD a D or an A or even a YMCA, international law is always defined by the winners, so meh…we will have to wait how this will end. Keep in mind that there are several precedents set in this war; hopefully people will not post the exact opposite reasoning when these precedents are imposed on them (unfortunately I doubt).

I don’t get why all this fuss, as the whole thing is so transparent and done to the death for the last three and a half years years. The alliances in power impose double standards and try to establish their opinion as the norm. Their lapdogs and their members are clustering the thread in order to further this goal. The other side is trying to prove the obvious, but their audience is rather limited as most of the alliances don’t give a damn about it, as long as it doesn’t influence their position in the world or/and their safety at least in short term. We all know the outcome of these threads, especially since any international legality is thrown out of the window. This is another bad precedent in my opinion, but whatever… Good luck to ML, glad to have you abroad.

A bit suprised, but since NoR and their involved allies consider this to promote their interests, I can only say congrats and enjoy peace .

[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1296595787' post='2615012'] These comics are great. I hope you put them all on a page together and in order one day [/quote] I agree on this. Also overall some very good pieces...

[quote name='Kowalski' timestamp='1296647041' post='2616031'] If you're going to start threads as jokes then please do keep to each other's forums. [/quote] Come on, maybe this wasn’t as eloquent as you would like, but I see it more like a friendly tease than an attempt to discredit Sparta. Planet Bob is going to be in war for a long time, so maybe once a while we can lighten up and exchange some jokes. After all some lighthearted threads can be a good counterbalance to these “open letter” and “where the world is going” threads, they can provide a good mix.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1296631347' post='2615913'] If GATO's allies believe that this is the long term strategy that is in their best interest, and they have a good argument for it, then it should stop at that. [/quote] I agree with Letum on this, enjoy peace.

Although I consider the two wars as different conflicts, I also understand that the winners can dictate whatever term they want and it's up to the losing side to accept it or not. Of course when terms are imposed then it’s not a white peace, but that’s just a technicality. Enjoy peace.

Although I still have a soft spot for Plolaris and I would like to see us a bit closer if/when the circumstances are right, I agree with Moridin. Now days the only thing that we have in common, concerning politics, is that we are targeted by the same people that use vague and mostly invalid reasons/beliefs to justify their actions.

Welcome to the fight comrades.

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1296420600' post='2611441'] I will be waiting for the moment you prove that at one point in time I was in the moralist camp of Bob. Until then, spare me your nonsense about double standards. What you will however find, should you take up the challenge, is that I have not agreed to certain norms as they were present in the Q days, those being [i]your norms[/i]. When I began to lead my alliance you'll note a shift in the way we were dealing with things. Not necessarily moralistic, but not the opposite either. There are more ways to rule, and most often it is a mixture of both. But if you insist on seeing the world as black and white, please be my guest. Oh, and for the STA comment: you'll have to see through the propaganda a bit. Yes, the image of the STA is one of a 'moralistic' alliance, but I do believe they techraided for instance. [/quote] Concerning the OOC comment, all good Concerning the moralistic propaganda, obviously I mean your side and not you personally; after all you are a Hollander . It is a fact that prior and after the Karma war the moralists, like your friend Bob overused and exploited the naivety, or better say the urge to believe that something will change, of the OWF people. MK et al. enjoyed the ride and used some of the followers, so even via proxy you were in the moralist camp of Bob (both Janova and planet ). Now concerning our norms and your norms, they both have the same start, realpolitik. You can try and rule via the whip, via the carrot or using both. None of these ways is actually moral, as morals are not taken into consideration in the true decision but are used as an excuse for the masses. So the world is really just black and white when we discuss motives, either you do it for your alliance, or for the greater good. I strongly believe that only a handful of alliances will actually choose the greater good. The first one is Pacifica that strived via Pax Pacifica to bring peace and prosperity to this world and on the same ground we have MK et al. that now try to save this world from apathy . On a more serious note I consider STA as a moral alliance when it comes to politics since I don't see them to crave power, or being a lapdog just to have a connection with power. [quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1296419226' post='2611415'] There are three things about this that I simply cannot stop giggling at: 1) The idea of the NPO as a force of growth, fairness, and peace. 2) That the OP was pretentious enough to claim this. 3) (Most of all!) That the poster actually thinks anyone would [b]believe[/b] it! [/quote] Well to be fair: (a ) We tried to grow and helped other alliance grow along us in red, which was a taboo in the past. Add the fact that we voluntary helped the growth of MK et al. and you will agree that we were a force of growth. (b ) We didn’t participate or incite any war, on the contrary, so that makes us a force of peace. (c ) Internally we tried to eradicate the bad blood for the alliances that wronged us, most of the alliance embassy indicates it, at least the ones that sent a "normal" ambassador, and so we tried to be a force of fairness. So if we use actual facts, rather than feelings or beliefs the OP is right. Obviously you can believe whatever you want. I have also a question concerning TOP. I have observed that TOP for some reason seems rather aggressive against Pacifica for no clear reason, at least for me. I can only assume that maybe your FA strategy and your new allies dictate this behavior, but if this is the reason then I am really saddened for the route you selected, as I was (and to a part I am still) holding you in high esteem. On the other hand I may aswell be wrong...

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1296414365' post='2611325'] My god, are you a woman by any chance? The attitude you have is disgusting, because all you are doing it for is your own satisfaction. To be able to drown yourself in a shallow pool of alleged good intentions, thinking others will admire you over how good you supposedly are. Please, you are not anyones savior, get over yourself! [/quote] Are you a misogynist by any chance? Because I think your attitude is disgusting and your assumptions and aphorisms rather idiotic, and this coming from a married man is telling something . Now concerning the anathema of morality and moralistic reasoning, I know that you may found it unbelievable but I think there are are people believing that power is not the main goal of this game, or they don’t bother. These people, since they do not seek power, they probably will use morals and personal friendship to judge the CN politics. So they don’t do it for PR, as you did it for the last two years, they do it because that’s the way they play the game. There are several alliances that are moralistic, like STA for example, and since they are consistent they should keep preaching, as they are the consciences of the game. I understand that now you don’t like it as it doesn’t fit your agenda but you exploited it for more than two years, so at least respect these people that fought alongside you and brought you to power.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit Bob. Until then party...

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1296215599' post='2607314'] Here's to a painful death! [/quote] of whom? Here's to five more years of love, peace and prosperity...