Balkan Banania

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' timestamp='1296198163' post='2607089'] When peace becomes a better option than war then people will accept surrender terms. If war is better than peace then people will fight to the death. [/quote] Seeing what we paid after karma war and the reason that we are again attacked I don't think that there is a case where surrendering will be an option. [quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1296198706' post='2607101'] NPO will break long before NpO does. [/quote] Nah... If you believe that one of the Orders will break you are delusional, or it is just wishful thinking.

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1296163298' post='2606095'] Observation in things you weren't involved in? When all the people who had a say in it have told you repeatedly: "No, MK didn't have a say in NPO's reps"? Want my glasses? [/quote] Let me get it straight, you are telling me that I should take the MK public statements as the absolute truth and assume they are completely sincere. Personally I am a fan of historical materialism, so I have to say I prefer my observation, common sense and political thinking. [quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1296164737' post='2606139'] Now it is fair to say that we didn't [i]object[/i] to the terms. But the alliances on that front came up with them on their own. [/quote] fair enough (I would add a +0.7 in yous sum ), although keep in mind that this was the case in many secondary wars Pacifica participated. Not that it matters as we are to blame for wars that we didn’t even participate, but who cares now, the world is burning. [quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1296164737' post='2606139'] One signature isn't comparable to numerous official publications. [/quote] Now you are only downgrading the signature of the only respectable leader at your part of the web. Personally I think that a signature weight much more than a propagandistic yellow newspaper (of great taste and very enjoyable of course ).

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1296162336' post='2606058'] … You don't have to take Azaghul's word for it as he was only the one in charge of all reps within MK… [/quote] I suppose you are joking, although I really value Azaghul as a player I have no reason to take his word as valid. This is a political game, MK is good at it and you usually do PR stunts “bending the truth” in the way and exploiting the fact that some of the players are moralists and/or naïve. So no I don’t have to take Azaghul's word for it, I prefer to use common sense and observation.

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1296159399' post='2605996'] - Karma war: IIRC, the only alliance that we didn't give white peace too, AND THAT WE WERE FIGHTING AND HAD A SAY IN THE TERMS OF, was TPF. Those reps and terms weren't excessive, and in discussions with the other alliances on that front we were on the side of lighter terms. The eventual terms were a compromise, after much discussion and arguing, between MK which wanted them to be lighter and PC which wanted them to be harsher. [/quote] Out of curiosity, you are implying that MK didn't get any of Pacifica's tech? Also if I remember correctly our surrender was signed by the "Voice of Karma ", so I suppose you had a say in the terms... Edited clarification, just in case. The emoticon indicates that I don't like the titles that LM and Archon had at the time, I have nothing against them.

[quote name='Lord Strider' timestamp='1296065261' post='2602914'] I advocated over and over that they try and become friends with a lot of the alliances that attacked them in Karma. If NPO and GOONS were friends again, like they were once with the old GOONS, this most likely wouldn't have happened. [/quote] You know very well that this wasn't to happen. We are more of use as enemies than friends. Our existence as a bogeyman (even a crippled one) allowed your side to exploit the moralists of this world, thus having both the numerical and the PR advantage up to now. Now you think that you are so strong that you do not need them, so you are condemning the moralistic argumentation. Maybe you are right, we will see... [quote name='jalopy' timestamp='1296099358' post='2604077'] I hated the NPO before it was cool. [/quote] Hating NPO was cool since the Citrus war, so I believe that you are wrong, especially if you are “the blitz”.

Ave Legio! Good luck friends [quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1296124650' post='2605276'] Hint: they're not a weak link. [/quote] I don't think anyone believe they are, or implied it.

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' timestamp='1296097131' post='2603975'] Radio silence, only official spokespersons from their propaganda departments will be speaking. the serfs will be ordered to remain silent [/quote] It has nothing to do with radio silence, at least from our part. It’s just the fact that the OWF ,unfortunately, is not the central point of the game, so most of the people don’t bother with it. [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296098000' post='2604013'] What people are forgetting is that the moralist rhetoric was appropriate for its time, [/quote] I never said I disagree with this, it was a good PR stunt, but nevertheless it was tiresome coming from your coalition [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296098000' post='2604013']it is however now heavily outdated and yet we are incapable of discarding it. [/quote] It is outdated for you because it is not in line with your current political stance and power position. On the other hand being the hegemony (I am using the term in a loose way and not as an insult ) doesn’t mean that you can change the way of thinking or the political orientation of the whole Planet Bob. [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296098000' post='2604013']In my opinion it is likely the result of a basic human instinct to want to do good (or at least to do what you think is morally good) which is why we cannot move on from this particular train of thought and develop something fresh. [/quote] I think the reason is not some basic human instinct, but the fact that various leaders/alliances do not crave for power (not even by proxy) for various reasons, so morality is the only other option they have. In my opinion we have on the one hand realpolitik, like the one Pacifica, Polaris, LUE/MK, GOONS and Umbrella were/are practicing, thus these are the alliances that actually act in the global scheme (of course there are always lapdogs but meh…).On the other hand there are people believing that power is not the main goal of this game, or they don’t bother. These are the people that normally will react on the action of the above alliances and since they do not seek for power the only other possible way to judge things is through morals and personal friendship. So there is no way to eradicate the moralistic way of thinking from Bob, but personally I would prefer people to not exploit it. There are several alliances that are moralistic. They for sure should keep preaching, as they are the consciences of the game and actually work as a regulator. On the other hand having for example MK, or Pacifica to the same extend, playing the moral card is just not my cup of tea. [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296098000' post='2604013'] So when you claim we made 'lulz' our flag, it was simply a change in political ideology, a necessary change every alliance must make at least once during their existence.[/quote] It was not a change in political ideology, as your goal was the same from the start; it was just a change in your PR campaign to further support your main goal. [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296098000' post='2604013'] OWF degradation is not something you can blame on one alliance. Everyone is responsible for a large majority of terrible posts being made, even alliances in your sphere of influence and alliances in ours. Everyone needs to suck it up and take responsibility for the god awful posting.[/quote] I agree, but judging from the side of a Pacifica’s member, it was just really hard to make any political oriented post when every single post was followed by an unbelievable amount of trolling and accusations. [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296098000' post='2604013']I feel no sympathy for those who followed the Mushroom Kingdom believing them to be moral crusaders who would save us all. Only a fool would believe that of anyone, especially in the world of politics. [/quote] I may agree on the second part, although I would prefer the term naive, but nevertheless you used them. So allow me to feel sympathy for people that were exploited. [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296098000' post='2604013'] With regards to your claim that we are not doing this for the game or for fun but to only eliminate potential opponents; Why can we not be doing all three? I'm certainly having fun, and I do feel that this war is good for the game, not just because we've declared on the NPO, but because we've actually declared on [i]someone[/i]. [/quote] My objection is aimed mainly to the PR line that you are trying to impose. You are not doing it for the game, you are doing it for political reasons, and all good, just say it. [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296098000' post='2604013']I don't think that because we declared on NPO without a "legitimate CB" that it will be the end of the CB, but it will at least show to people that sometimes having no reason is the best reason. [/quote] You have a reason and a good one military and political speaking, but in any case when you are throwing international law in the trash bin you are setting a bad precedent. I believe that when you are starting an agreesive war unprovoked and without at least an attempt to press politically your agenda (using your military weight of course) you are taking a significant aspect of the game away, but maybe it is just me. [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296098000' post='2604013'] And I'm pretty sure I have been talking politics.[/quote] It was more like a general urge, than a comment for you specifically, I liked your post. Also I tried to make this wall of text readable, but meh…not a native English speaker.

Good hunting friends. [quote name='NorthernLights' timestamp='1296108038' post='2604857'] Why don't you want to dance with us? [/quote] I don't think that anyone needs an invitation anymore

Good luck brothers

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1296110767' post='2604999'] It is a nice one. By the way, congratulations. You nefarious plot to ensnare unwary travelers by posting a link to a 2 year old thread nabbed a not so observant victim. [/quote] Bah.. it was just Steve, it is hard to notice anything when you are riding a white horse and keep shouting the same song all day. For FAN, I always enjoy fighting along you and against you, I only hope that we will see some more posting in the OWF from you guys (well not from everyone, but you get the point )

[quote name='uaciaut' timestamp='1296069097' post='2603035'] Either you're absolutely idiotic, or you're just trying to anger the Legion. [/quote] I follow your example and quote from back then: [quote]This is the largest circlejerk I've ever seen. [/quote]

As I hold MK et al. at higher esteem than VE I think that Pacifica will offer peace terms to PB later than Polaris to VE and Co. because we will be enjoying ourselves more. I know that every time I fight FAN I have a blast (I mean it).

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1296024533' post='2602310'] [color="#FF0000"]"Karma" was nothing more than a convienent buzzword to rally against Pacifica. Nothing more, nothing less.[/color] [/quote] [quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1296024955' post='2602323'] I'm pretty sure I said these exact words in a post somewhere [/quote] This was obvious from the begining, but by repeating again and again the same moralistic propaganda you made the OWF a sad place to be. On this ground I would like some compensation for all the moralistic posts by MK et al. during the Karma war. A post by Bob with the above quote will be sufficient On a serious note, I don’t have a problem with this war. My problem is that you firstly downgraded the OWF by overusing the moralistic rhetoric along with a ton of trolling. At the same time by using Vox you revised history to your liking (just to avoid unneeded trolling, we were indeed a hegemony and did many things that can fully justify the Karma war). Then you decided to make the lulz your flag, and now, after you have made this place a beacon of stupidity, you decided to do something “for” the game. As I see it your action can potentially kill a significant aspect of the politics of the game if it becomes a norm, while at the same time I think that the OWF degradation drove many players out of the game. I feel sympathy for the people that decided to play this game as moral leaders and for some reason believed that MK et al. could hold the principles espoused by the Karma war, but I think that the path you follow was clear from the beginning. Concerning the recent war it is also obvious that you do not do this for the game, or even for fun, you are doing this in order to neutralize a potential enemy, so please cut the propaganda. Your actions have as sole purpose to benefit MK and PB which is of course logical, but please stop claiming that you are doing the game a favor, you don’t. Concluding, this war is not bad and I will entertain myself, but please improve your propaganda, or stop it and let's try to speak about politics. The audience is a bit less naïve than during the Karma era.

I liked it, some good lines

[quote name='Link Gaetz' timestamp='1295961013' post='2599977'] What has become of TOP? [/quote] They choose sides some time ago…It is their right and I suppose there were several incidences that made them take the specific path. Personally I hold no grudges against them; it is called surviving. Although I have to say that I think they lost something in the process, but it is their call and all I have is an uneducated opinion. Concerning the specific war I echo Farnsworth’s concerns over the evolution of international affairs and the possibility that in future political confrontations,depending on the outcome of current wars, we will witness a complete lack of legitimacy. As a Pacifican, I was sure that this time was about to come, so I am prepared for a long and bloody war (at least I hope so ). We took our lessons in Armageddon (Karma) war; we took some notices from the resilience of FAN and we have the spirit from the Great Patriotic War to guide us. So see you in the battlefield. Pacifica Prevails

No matter the outcome of this and the path it will go I see this action as unneeded, but personally I don't have a problem with this. \m/ is a sovereign alliance, the international law is in the trash bin due to MK et al. declarations, so I don’t get why all this fuss. MK set the precedent and \m/ is just following. See you in the battlefield, or whatever is best for you.

Bah… I am a bit sad, as in reality this political simulator game degenerated to a simple click and click again game. As said by Farnsworth: [quote name='Farnsworth' timestamp='1295936617' post='2599159']I consider this a sad, regrettable day in the history of Planet Bob. International affairs loses legitimacy and intrigue when this sort of behavior prevails.[/quote] This is an expected declaration, although I thought that the “moralists (hello Bob et al.)” will actually waited for the other war to end and then fabricate a CB, but meh…it doesn’t matter. Any one being a Pacifican should be prepared for a fight for existence, I know I am. Concerning FAN, they do what they think best and personally I don’t blame them. I am hoping that they still have the same ability they had in the past, thus will make this war entertaining. So a toast to an eternal war. Also please, in order to at least make these forums bearable, stop trying to take the moral high ground, it was tiresome a couple of years in the past, it is more now.

It’s a pity that common sense is not that common in CN politics. I am sorry that things came to this, but the Emperor made a wise decision. Good luck to Thessaly, hopefully this will wake them up.

I sense someone is megalomaniac. You didn’t do anything, it was VE et al. that wanted this war and they started it. The CB is obviously rather thin and it is the political and military power of the attacking alliances that makes it “valid” for the international community (OWF crowd). So I don’t see you being an indispensable part of it, anyone treacherous/amoralist or just bored could do it. It is just that you were immediately available. Personally I would prefer a war declared for the real political reasons rather than a declaration based on some laughable CB. It would actually be innovative and a somewhat brave move.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1295247465' post='2578412'] Back then, the game had few alliances; treaties were few, and the separations between factions were very clearly delineated. Now, the game has ten times as many alliances, and they inhabit a treaty web that can only be called an absolute mess. These changes make all the difference, and those of us who were here before Great War 3 are very, very aware of the differences between how things were done then and how things are now. What was once a solid political simulator has been made stagnant and often pointless by the sheer number of treaties signed by so many alliances. [/quote] Crymson makes a valid point. From my point of view the problem is not the absolute number of treaties, but the fact that there is no actual political discussion in the OWF.. The back room politics, although necessary, now are the only politics going on. This leaves the OWF a barren place. Several reasons for this, firstly it is the treaty web that dictates people’s opinions and posting. Secondly people tend to take the easy way out of any discussion playing either the morals card or the “do something about it” card. Thirdly there is no polarization concerning “ideologies”, as nobody actually wants to discuss anything. Overall the game is no longer a political simulator, especially during peace time, thus it is only logical for people to quit or/and crave for war.

It's a shame, but nevertheless it is good to know when to stop pursuing a specific project. Good luck, hopefully you will find a deserving home.

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1292975727' post='2548886']You seem to have missed many of my posts, for I've already made it quite clear that I believe PC/iFOK are cravenly avoiding a situation in which they would find themselves on both sides of a large conflict.[/quote] I didn't, it is just the fact that your reaction is rather mild compared with the one half a year ago . [quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1293009438' post='2549785']You don't have your facts straight, but that hasn't stopped you before, so I'll let you continue to believe your own delusions.[/quote] Hypocrisy at its finest, so I have to quote again your moral outrage concerning a similar (or the same if you prefer) incident. [quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1281467368' post='2410006'] The amount of hypocrisy NPO still displays is hilarious. Now, the only question is if your grand displays of cowardice when your ally is attacked are greater than your hypocrisy.[/quote] The double standards and the moralist rhetoric are rather tiresome, so please try to be consistent, or step down from your white horse. After all this is a political game, let's try to reduce the mindless propaganda.

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1292972099' post='2548806'] We did what you guys did when NSO asked you not to stick your nose in. [/quote] Indeed, so I return the naming [quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1281467368' post='2410006'] The amount of hypocrisy [s]NPO[/s]iFOK still displays is hilarious. Now, the only question is if your grand displays of cowardice when your ally is attacked are greater than your hypocrisy. [/quote] Also I await the great KingZog to start a campaign against the cowards, like you know last time [quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281312879' post='2405387'] I doubt very much that the [s]NSO's[/s]NEW treaties include a "request for help" clause. Thus I'm going to conclude that any treaty partner not defending [s] the Legion of Brown [/s] NEW is led by lying cowards. [/quote] and so on and so on (too many low quality posts that have the same meaning)... Some other rather vocal ones chose to remain silent this time; I suppose it is just a coincidence: [quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1281313334' post='2405438'] I don't give two craps if [s]NSO's[/s] NEW's allies don't join as I am not even at war here; just making the point that, in this case, the MDP/MDoAP/MADP clauses in their treaties are being rendered "optional". Play with this as you may, it matters not. [/quote] [quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1281417750' post='2409173'] I guess the consequences are so terrible for you that[s] NSO [/s] NEW is worth sacrificing to keep you safe eh? [/quote] Overall I am just irritated by the level of hypocrisy that several alliances display and their continuous effort to avoid any accusation for wrongdoing. Please stop repeating the same argument over and over again, acknowledge the fact that this was a logical political decision although you dumped an ally in the way (side casualties) and that you are not the beacon of light, courage knowledge and everything else in the world, nobody is (except of Pacifica of course ).

I don’t get why all this noise…All treaties are actually optional and for most of the times exist as long as they are beneficial for the stronger party (Karma war highlighted it, but so did all the wars before it). My only problem is that depending on what side of the spectrum people are they decide to play the moralist card or the realpolitik card and they do it using big words and revising history, thus making the OWF a sad place. Of course there are exceptions, like NSO that has a rather straight forward FA policy concerning treaties. I think the iFOK and PC stance is immoral, mainly due to the double standards applied, but at the same time it is the best decision for the said alliances. After all history is written by the victors, especially when peoples memory and political awareness is rather shallow.

Two very competent alliances sign a treaty, thus strengthening even further their political position. Congratulations and good luck, I think it was a very good decision for both parts.