Balkan Banania

I think Shan Revan’s analysis is rather accurate. As a GATOer back then I was not very happy about our decision to line up with LUE, from an ethical point of view. On the other hand the declaration on NPO was a logical political move as a confrontation seemed inevitable. In reality GATO and LUE had a golden opportunity to end the antagonism with NPO, but GATO was lacking the needed determination. In fact I was unpleasantly surprised by the fact that many GATO members were unwilling to fight, especially during the last week of the war.

The death of an influential and historical alliance is never pleasant and GGA was a significant alliance starting from the era of PC and at least up to the era of Birlow. I salute the current and old members of GGA and wish them good luck.

It is interesting to see how fast the attitude of the Polaris posters changes, depending on whom they are trying to suck up to. I thought Polaris considered NSO as brothers, but mehh...big words are free. Good luck NSO.

Congratulations on peace.

I think it is one of the best issues and I found a sig

Congratulations and good luck in this crucial moment for TOP

[quote name='James Dahl' date='09 February 2010 - 07:04 AM' timestamp='1265691850' post='2169859'] The war's spark was stupid, but this question is important, and this war will determine the outcome of our world's most basic freedom, the [b]Freedom To[/b] unrestrained expression. [/quote] I suppose the attacks on KoN were artistic expressions by the artists of Athens, as was the intention to obliterate TPF using a 6 months old CB . I think there is a distinct difference between freedom of expression and imposing your will to the weaker, but whatever. I will quote Moridin's opinion, as I am really sick of this discussion about morals. [quote name='Moridin' date='09 February 2010 - 08:32 AM' timestamp='1265697122' post='2170163'] Can we please not pretend this war is at all about ideology or freedom or any of that,... This is a war where there are two sides fighting for dominance, it's not TOP wanting to infringe on your free speech or C&G valiantly fighting for the oppressed. [/quote] People overplayed the moral card during the Karma war, but then it was easy as we were the embodiment of every evil, thus an easy target even for low quality propaganda. Now in order to play it you will need some more effort and I don’t see effort in the OP, but I may be wrong, or just grumpy.

[quote name='Fantastico' date='02 February 2010 - 08:12 AM' timestamp='1265091165' post='2152448'] For posterity's sake: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79847"]The rest of the story.[/url] [/quote] I think that maybe you should reconsider

I like the hearing of TOPocalypse , although I hope that TOP/IRON will find peace soon, hopefully when NpO get peace by the side of C&G et al . Concerning NpO actions, I don't get it, these seems to not be the actions of a sovereign alliance. As STA selected a side, so must NpO, it is not so difficult to actually make decisions. If you want to stand by MK et al. then ditch NSO again, after all you know the drill.

Good luck friends

[quote name='Tick1' date='04 February 2010 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1265299745' post='2158913'] I guess people are illiterate also. Guys they said you are to destroy all improvements [b]except[/b] those needed to maintain SDIs. Ignorant people I just don't understand why your alliances don't gag you! [/quote] I suppose this was added with the edit, thus no reason to be offensive

[quote name='Ninja Colt' date='02 February 2010 - 02:18 AM' timestamp='1265069935' post='2151488'] Yes, that is 4 seconds apart. [/quote] I have no love for MK, but this should be at least complimented. Personally I am like

[quote name='Great Lord Moth' date='04 February 2010 - 06:15 AM' timestamp='1265256941' post='2157902'] At this rate, the two sides will pummel one another into insignificance. ...GPA in first, NPO in second? ;>_> That seems familiar. [/quote] Well, then we must start our preparations On a serious note, Gopher thanks for keeping the peanut gallery informed about the war

It is a pity that you have to make such a difficult decision. I suppose it is difficult entering a war against the sides of NSO and NpO, given that NSO had covered your back during the first turn of the war. Maybe MK should have not asked for your entrance or you should have declared neutrality, as it seems like your participation is overkill, but whatever. The treaty web is a mess and any decision would be justified. Anyway this is a shine example of the idiocy of this war; hopefully all combatants will realize it and it will end soon with a blanket white peace , but this is for the C&G to decide.

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='01 February 2010 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1265053807' post='2150891'] We didn't need Grub to tell us the conflict escalated beyond the alliances initially involved. \m/ has a pretty good literacy rate contrary to popular belief. We we there too, we saw the DoWs. For anybody questioning \m/'s motives in accepting the peace, here they are. We had proved our point to the world. NpO made demands and we stood up to them. Most neutral observers has decided by the point of that peace that \m/ was foolish to raid FoA and that Grub was foolish to revive a done and done issue. So our goals in this war were pretty much met. While it would have been nice to win an eventual victory over the NpO and accept surrender terms, that outcome was by no means a sure thing. [b]My perspective on the conflict changed when I got a PM from Jyrinx of STA detailing the situation regarding TOP/TSO and how this war was weakening the opposition to the Orange camp.[/b] Battles of ego are fun and all but we know when the time comes to drop ego and focus on things more important. We fought for nearly a week and inflicted significant damage to the New Polar Order (as they did to us). Our egos were satisfied. But the continued escalation of the war was detrimental to our interests. While we could have won the war, it would have been a damaging victory for the whole coalition, including (most likely) CnG. And while \m/ and CnG aren't on the best of terms, CnG's continued success is in line with our interests. If CnG had been caught between TOP and NpO's allies, it would have been trouble for all of us. We were considering all of this before Archon ever asked us to do him a favor by peacing out. Archon's request of us only served to cement our resolve that declaring peace was a good idea. [/quote] So I can wear a tin foil hat and speculate: The \m/ war started, Polaris brought NSO and STA in. NSO discussed with IRON their entrance and IRON/TOP were positive about it. STA and NpO discussed with the Oranges details concerning their entrance. IRON & TOP said they plan to hit the whole C&G and NpO, STA and NSO argued STA and NpO discussed with MK the possibility that IRON & TOP will enter the fray. STA and NpO decided that their interest lie with C&G, thus they contacted \m/ et al. as you say, I suppose that MK made some contacts as well. STA and NpO discussed with the Oranges details concerning their entrance and got ready for their exit from the war. NpO couldn’t drag NSO out of the mesh as then the news for the coming peace would reach IRON and consequently Orange, thus they left NSO out of the "negotiations". NpO "accepted" peace in a hurry after the Orange declaration (I think it would be better if you had a template ready, posting IRC logs without signatures seems amateurish ). Another approach for the concluding part is that NSO was determined to fight the war, not leave IRON behind and not accepting the NpO/STA plan, thus they tried to keep NpO and STA in the war by not accepting peace. Either way it seems like a trap and a poor show by former Frostbite brothers. I am also open to any other interpretation of the facts. Maybe by people with more insight than me, especially some of the moral crusaders of the past.

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='01 February 2010 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1265005855' post='2149990'] In all honesty, Chief and Grub came to an agreement to end the war before TOP even declared their war on C&G. What took us so long to actually make the announcement was getting Poison Clan and FOK's approval and thus their signatures. If they had said no to the peace deal, we'd still be fighting Polar because \m/ had no intention of leaving Poison Clan behind and I know Poison Clan didn't want to do that to FOK either. It really was an amazing coincidence, one I'm not going to even deny for a second that I find highly amusing, absolutely amazing and something I'm glad happened in the manner it did. But that's all it was; a coincidence. This front of the war was over before Archon or anyone else said or did anything in regards to the conflict. Whatever the reasoning for NpO was, devious or not, I do not know nor do I care. And to be honest it doesn't really matter either. Even if we were still at war with the NpO, TOP/IRON declaring war on C&G "pre-emptively" was foolhardy, stupid and just opened the door to more than they bargained for. [/quote] So just to be sure I understand what you say: \m/, the one seeking peace as is the one getting pounded had the resolve to keep fighting until their allies are notified and agreed on the peace agreement. On the other hand Polaris, the second (or third whatever) stronger alliance of CN was so eager to accept peace that they couldn't delay the procedure in order to at least notify NSO for the finalization of the peace agreement. I don't count TOP / IRON because all CN is aware about the agenda of Polaris. Anyway, at least one order has balls o/ NSO

Happy birthday Legion, wishes for many more years of prosperity and progress.

First of all read all the above replies, secondly I suppose that as ODNers think that the concept of fighting against the odds for your allies is arrogance, they also believe that ODN is the humbler alliance out there.

Let’s see, Grub was so eager to accept peace that he did it without prior notification of one of his closest allies NSO, maybe because then the words would reach IRON, maybe not. Personally I don’t think the war stressed Polaris so much that he couldn’t wait a day or even some hours. Also it is rather interesting that Grub didn't make an official statement about the peace agreement as it was announced rather vaguely via some IRC logs without signatures or anything, allowing for a gray period of time and that the peace was agreed almost the time TOP / IRON declared. Of course these are only circumstantial evidences so obviously everybody can decide for himself. Personally I am disappointed of Polaris either way but I don’t matter. They have decided their future, sacrificing some alliances in the way, but mehh...at least they have their thirty pieces of silver

This is a rather naive approach, I would expect more from you. It is obvious that a new political hegemony arise from the ashes of this war. Anyway as with all wars determination is the key. I think that if TOP, IRON, TORN and DAWN stay together they will manage to overcome the odds and get out in one piece, not as the winning side of course, but regardless in one peace.

I suppose you are kidding, as the reason everyone is at war was just brought to light and the actual conflict just started.

NSO, an alliance that I really respect, their actions during the recent wars are making the reasons evident. Good luck in the future.

It seems that this man speaks the truth; I wasn't expecting such an exceptional orchestration of events just to put TOP in this position, so I must say I am rather surprised. On the other hand I may be wrong so I will just wait and see how far this will go Hail Neutrality

I suppose you have some inside info concerning the upcoming DOWs? Also thanks to FOKers for the info concerning the video, of course your kindness do not change my stance on the matter

So you support that there is no abuse of power involved in the recent incidences? I disagree, but as usual where people stand is a matter of perspective and for the ones involved a matter of politics as well. Thus let’s agree that we disagree