A Statement from Doomhouse

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300591098' post='2670746']
i am the one spinning you trying to forcefully expel a member of an alliance? okay mate. some things don't need spinning. this being one of them.
[/quote]
Why don't you ask RV what he thinks about it before you spout off with your nonsense.

OOC: I know English isn't your first language, but could you at least use proper capitalization? It's irritating to read.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1300577746' post='2670498']
It's going to evolve into them being strangled by their own strategy, as I mentioned earlier. Things are different in many ways now. But the fact remains, NPO's guiding light is domination of the world, and Doomhouse's role has always been to oppose that in it's many varied forms.



Duckroll members have done nothing but say they want no part of this. I suspect they dislike NPO as much as they dislike Doomhouse, to be honest, and stand to come out of this fracas pretty well.

So, no, you moran.
[/quote]

I thought Molon Labe and BAPS were part of Duckroll.... heh, guess I was wrong.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300591396' post='2670751']
Why don't you ask RV what he thinks about it before you spout off with your nonsense.

OOC: I know English isn't your first language, but could you at least use proper capitalization? It's irritating to read.
[/quote]

Fine, I will ask him.

ooc: English is my first language thank you very much. Just so happens, I tend to check the forums while working on homework or studying and what not, so I end up typing fast which means I don't capitalize. Also, if I am not doing homework, I tend to forget anyways since I don't honestly care much to try and type out crap properly on this forum at least for grammatical issues.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300591715' post='2670755']
ooc: English is my first language thank you very much. Just so happens, I tend to check the forums while working on homework or studying and what not, so I end up typing fast which means I don't capitalize. Also, if I am not doing homework, I tend to forget anyways since I don't honestly care much to try and type out crap properly on this forum at least for grammatical issues.
[/quote]
OOC: Oh, my apologizes then.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300591795' post='2670756']
OOC: Oh, my apologizes then.
[/quote]

ooc: No probs mate. I do understand the issue with my writing sometimes, particularly since I can be long-winded. I can try to at least type grammatically better if I am doing nothing else at the time.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300590383' post='2670739']
Yes it is a war game I myself said that numerous times. it is also a game of growth and building. How would you feel Azaghul if some alliance had a grudge against MK and
attacked MK everytime you guys started getting ahead? I mean you'd just start getting ahead and the same adversary, the exact same adversary would engineer a CB and come after you. wouldn't that get old after awhile? Old NPO weren't saints, but my god forgive and move on.
[/quote]
The last time MK and NPO fought a war with each other it was when one of NPO's allies engineered a CB against a protectorate of one of our allies.

But I'm not sure what this has to do with my point about what happens once wars are declared.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300591098' post='2670746']
you seem to like to take some plays from NPO's playbook though. certainly stating that an alliance is a threat to your security and using that as a reason to crush them entirely is one of them. is that logical and factual enough for you?

now from this, one could logically deduce that any alliance that is seen as a threat to your security could be crushed at any time. given the fact that MK went ballistic over a tech deal gone wrong, it would appear that any inane reason could be seen as a threat and thus DH could very well roll out on any alliance. GPA, TDO, WTF all do tech deals with alliances most likely including MK. I wonder how GPA would feel if given the same demand that NSO received?

i am sure you and others will make an argument based on the history of NSO and the history of GPA and what not and how the situations would be different, thus stating MK would have no reason to demand what they did of NSO. but see, the fact that they have far outweighs anything else. their actions prove differently. now if you can give me proof of a similar situation with the demand being differently, i will drop this argument. but until then, MK's actions have proven how entirely ruthless they are willing to be over petty and idiotic !@#$.

and same with DH, otherwise GOONS would not be making the demands they are, nor would this war be continuing at all.

i won't say that NPO was neutral but they were uninvolved and more than likely going to stay that way. much the same as CnG during the BiPolar war was uninvolved. this entire war comes down to one actual reason, petty grudges held onto by DH.
[/quote]
Um, we never claimed that anything that NSO did in that situation was a "threat to our security".

Also just because NPO did something once doesn't mean that it is "taking it from their play book". NPO engages in tech deals, are we "taking something from there play book" when we do tech deals?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1300579962' post='2670540']
Again, I've covered this before, but we were going to help Pandora's Box and I imagine Doomhouse would have came along for the ride, since the NpO front was pretty heavy. But you can't do that with 25 million NS sitting on the sidelines with multiple ways to enter the war.

The reason is, you must seize the offensive. Attack, attack, attack.

You can say you weren't going to enter all you want, but the reality of the situation is, once Doomhouse committed we would have made a pretty tasty target and it would be a foolish thing to ignore NPO, after all the slights they had been slyly working in against Doomhouse during the previous months.

That's plenty of reason. And it shows a good deal of competance in the military war rooms of Doomhouse, imo.
[/quote]

Yet, your side says that you have no reason to roll IRON or Duckroll despite the fact that Molon Labe and BAPS are both involved against Umbrella and MK. I do not see the logic since it appears to fail when it comes to any other alliance except NPO. Which makes me feel that it is a total !@#$%^&* reason being used because of PR purposes. This also does not sit well since supposedly DH does not care a whit about PR.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300591328' post='2670750']
you should have learned those lessons during the BiPolar war from MK's incessant !@#$%*ing about TOP/Co pre-emptively attacking them.
[/quote]
MK's "incessant !@#$%*ing" during that time period got them the support of many of the people who are now incessantly !@#$%*ing to them. Well played Shrooms.

[The Trail]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300591715' post='2670755']
I thought Molon Labe and BAPS were part of Duckroll.... heh, guess I was wrong. [/quote]

They are.

BAPS isnt at war however.

And duckroll while we try to keep all members on one line we cannot stop treaty lines (Molon Labe being treatied to... uh.. TPF who is at war.

Nobody countered TOOL otherwise IRON would have joined. (Unless it was TOP. Allies of ours aswell)

Other then that IRON has a non agression pact with NPO which prevented us from attacking them.

That said I believe the majority of our treaties are non-chaining (as far as I know)
and aside from treaty lines neither duckroll nor IRON were planning to join the war

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300592089' post='2670760']
The last time MK and NPO fought a war with each other it was when one of NPO's allies engineered a CB against a protectorate of one of our allies.

But I'm not sure what this has to do with my point about what happens once wars are declared.


Um, we never claimed that anything that NSO did in that situation was a "threat to our security".

Also just because NPO did something once doesn't mean that it is "taking it from their play book". NPO engages in tech deals, are we "taking something from there play book" when we do tech deals?
[/quote]

NPO had a very specialized playbook mate. Game mechanics is one thing. Technically, I believe it was Grämlins who invented the tech deal (or were at least the first to use it on an alliance wide scale), so everyone engaging in tech-deals is taking a play from their playbook.

As for the NSO-MK situation, that was to illustrate how petty MK can be. Which means when it comes to defining what a "threat" is, they could also very well be petty about it.

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1300592308' post='2670763']
MK's "incessant !@#$%*ing" during that time period got them the support of many of the people who are now incessantly !@#$%*ing to them. Well played Shrooms.
[/quote]

Well it appears that some are able to be consistent, unlike others.

[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1300588326' post='2670706']
Marshall: A twin isn't the same person.

Barney: Of course it is. What do you think identical means? 'Ident-,' same, '-ical,' person. Same person. Hey, we can double-date.
[/quote]

ooc: Just had to say that How I Met Your Mother is awesome. back to the regularly scheduled debates and other things that think they are debates.

[quote name='The Trail' timestamp='1300592516' post='2670765']
They are.

BAPS isnt at war however.

And duckroll while we try to keep all members on one line we cannot stop treaty lines (Molon Labe being treatied to... uh.. TPF who is at war.

Nobody countered TOOL otherwise IRON would have joined. (Unless it was TOP. Allies of ours aswell)

Other then that IRON has a non agression pact with NPO which prevented us from attacking them.

That said I believe the majority of our treaties are non-chaining (as far as I know)
and aside from treaty lines neither duckroll nor IRON were planning to join the war
[/quote]

Ahh... my bad, I honestly thought BAPS went in. And I never meant to state that either IRON or DR would join in this war (DT is allied with Valhalla. ) just that it pretty much deflates the argument against NPO being seen as a threat because they had the potential to enter.

[Believland]

[quote name='Richard Rahl' timestamp='1300577403' post='2670486']
Paranoia and fear not valid reasons for war. Check.
[/quote]
While it's a valid reason -- as is any CB -- it's ****ing weak ****. You and I both know it.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300592713' post='2670766']
NPO had a very specialized playbook mate. Game mechanics is one thing. Technically, I believe it was Grämlins who invented the tech deal (or were at least the first to use it on an alliance wide scale), so everyone engaging in tech-deals is taking a play from their playbook.[/quote]
My point is whether NPO did it in the past or not is not very relevant. I don't see how what we've done has any connection to something that was a uniquely NPO action.

[quote]As for the NSO-MK situation, that was to illustrate how petty MK can be. Which means when it comes to defining what a "threat" is, they could also very well be petty about it. [/quote]
That's a very convoluted stretch. We weren't willing to bow to NSO's resorting to smear tactics, that has nothing to do with what we consider a "threat" or not.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300592089' post='2670760']
The last time MK and NPO fought a war with each other it was when one of NPO's allies engineered a CB against a protectorate of one of our allies.
[/quote]
Don't forget that they only engineered that excuse to hit Hyperion after GR or Hyperion (I forget which) refused to come up with a reason for them to hit us.

Edited March 20, 2011 by flak attack

[mattski133]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300591715' post='2670755']
I thought Molon Labe and BAPS were part of Duckroll.... heh, guess I was wrong.
[/quote]

I get the impression most of Duckroll was not thrilled about their involvement, but I guess the actions of Duckroll at this point speak more than speculation.

Summary: they could have crushed either side if they wanted to but they've done nothing so far.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300592134' post='2670762']
Yet, your side says that you have no reason to roll IRON or Duckroll despite the fact that Molon Labe and BAPS are both involved against Umbrella and MK. I do not see the logic since it appears to fail when it comes to any other alliance except NPO. Which makes me feel that it is a total !@#$%^&* reason being used because of PR purposes. This also does not sit well since supposedly DH does not care a whit about PR.
[/quote]

The involvement of ML and BAPS doesn't seem to reflect the general opinion of Duckroll. I say it doesn't "seem" to because I don't have a line inside that block and can only speculate as an outsider. But if they were going to enter, I think they would have by now to help their buddies out.

EDIT: to be more specific.

Edited March 20, 2011 by mattski133

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300572666' post='2670414']http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=70&t=99990&qpid=2670414
Size isn't the only way to gauge damage. Our side has fewer in anarchy and we're doing all the blitzing here. Where are the big MK, TOP and GOONS blitzes?
[/quote]

Bring your top tier out, and you will find out...

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300593576' post='2670771']
My point is whether NPO did it in the past or not is not very relevant. I don't see how what we've done has any connection to something that was a uniquely NPO action.


That's a very convoluted stretch. We weren't willing to bow to NSO's resorting to smear tactics, that has nothing to do with what we consider a "threat" or not.
[/quote]

How is it not relevant? I have sat back and watched as MK partook in the largest reps to date with one of the longest surrender terms to date. MK has utilized tactics from NPO, why should I not believe they won't utilize others? Because ya'll say you won't? That is not good enough. The precedent is set where MK is more than willing to utilize tactics they once found abhorrent. Ya'll set that, not me.

NPO also used to not bow to smear tactics and would also go to war when smear tactics were utilized against them. Go figure, you just gave me another tactic of NPO that MK utilizes. In fact, this war seems to be in part due to the smear tactics of Sir Paul. The terms in the OP are straight from NPO.

So it is relevant since there are other plays of NPO left unused. Since it is established that MK/DH is more than willing to utilize the playbook, everyone should be prepared for MK/DH to utilize the entire book.

Maybe if ya'll did not want to be associated in this manner, ya'll should have avoided using that playbook to begin with. Or at least kept it to only having been used during the Karma War to end it. I would say that everyone would have given ya'll a pass on that. But ya'll have continued to use said playbook, which means it is only a matter of time before you use the rest of the plays in said playbook.

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1300592857' post='2670768']
While it's a valid reason -- as is any CB -- it's ****ing weak ****. You and I both know it.
[/quote]
You're right BEazy it is a weak CB, does it not work both ways? I mean if the other alliances represented here think MK will at some point in the future attack one of us,
is it not ok for us to gang up and pre-empt them on a Paranoia CB aswell? or is it just an MK only thing? As for IRON, well them treaties with Argent and R&R is why it's ok for them to hide behind the hippie shield. by allowing IRON to do exactly what they attacked NPO for doing, they have set a nice double standard.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1300593993' post='2670777']
I get the impression most of Duckroll was not thrilled about their involvement, but I guess the actions of Duckroll at this point speak more than speculation.

Summary: they could have crushed either side if they wanted to but they've done nothing so far.



The involvement of ML and BAPS doesn't seem to reflect the general opinion of Duckroll. I say it doesn't "seem" to because I don't have a line inside that block and can only speculate as an outsider. But if they were going to enter, I think they would have by now to help their buddies out.

EDIT: to be more specific.
[/quote]

Oh I understand this completely. That is not my point. At the time that ML and possibly BAPS(? though TheTrail said that BAPS was uninvolved) entered, it was a very real potential that all of DR would. Which means all of DR was an imminent threat to the security of DH, far more so than NPO ever was. Thus, the fact that DR was not aggressively attacked shows the lie behind the "NPO was a threat to our security due to the possibility of their entrance to this war".

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='Chalaskan' timestamp='1300594032' post='2670779']
Bring your top tier out, and you will find out...
[/quote]
FAN had no top tier, who won VietFAN.

[Style #386]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300594439' post='2670785']
FAN had no top tier, who won VietFAN.
[/quote]
What does this even mean?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300594439' post='2670785']
FAN had no top tier, who won VietFAN.
[/quote]

KARMA. had Karma War not happened, NPO would have probably stayed at war for who knows how long with FAN. no offense to FAN but to state they conclusively won vietFAN is a misnomer. They sure as hell survived it and became stronger because of it, but to state they won because NPO was forced to declare peace is not conclusive in the least. If NPO manages to attain peace without having brought their upper tier out, it would be because they surrendered to DH, not because they have won. Either that, or DH ended up in a Karma style war where they were forced to declare peace with NPO. In neither of those situations does NPO win.

Barring a massive amount of 60k+ nations joining NPO, NPO will lose this war. There is no doubt to that.

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300594297' post='2670782']
You're right BEazy it is a weak CB, does it not work both ways? I mean if the other alliances represented here think MK will at some point in the future attack one of us,
is it not ok for us to gang up and pre-empt them on a Paranoia CB aswell?
[/quote]

Yeah actually it is, so feel free to do it in the future, just make sure you win. Remember, history is written by the winners, not the losers no matter how hard you try.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Sweeeeet Ronny D' timestamp='1300594653' post='2670789']
Yeah actually it is, so feel free to do it in the future, just make sure you win. Remember, history is written by the winners, not the losers no matter how hard you try.
[/quote]

Do remember that history can always be rewritten, just like how GWII and GWIII became crimes once Karma started. Thus, history is ever-changing and will continue to be so no matter how hard the winners try to keep it the same.

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='avenger218' timestamp='1300594439' post='2670785']
FAN had no top tier, who won VietFAN.
[/quote]

You are not even close to FAN, hell the nations you had that fought were learning to fight in the first round. Please don't tell me you are comparing yourselves to the FAN of old, cause honestly, your top nations that did fight, well they fought like a bunch of old men on crack.

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='Style #386' timestamp='1300594517' post='2670787']
What does this even mean?
[/quote]
there are different ways to win.
you can win by destroying and dominating your opponent, forcing a submission.
OR you can win by resisting conquest, not surrendering and surviving while your attacker
is getting destroyed by a coalition. FAN won by surviving, outlasting NPO.
even if we brought everyone out, fought a full on Brawl, retreated to hippie and fought a 2 year guerilla war, you guys meet NPO's fate, we never surrender, you guys are forced to white peace us, we win by surviving and not surrendering. aka pyhrric victory, the war with FAN was so costly to NPO that in the end NPO got defeated. the PR fallout from that war still haunts NPO. I see MK and pals making the exact same mistakes NPO did.
you may be winning this war militarily but your CB is a PR disaster.
Your actions in the post war (Which you've outlined your plans in the OP) and the fact that any alliance you view as a security threat is subject to getting attacked equates to Iron fisted rule. that will also hurt you in the long run.

When you face your Karma, which will happen, people won't have to tow the party line anymore and NPO will be yesterday's news. Think about that for awhile.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300594260' post='2670781']
How is it not relevant? I have sat back and watched as MK partook in the largest reps to date with one of the longest surrender terms to date. MK has utilized tactics from NPO, why should I not believe they won't utilize others? Because ya'll say you won't? That is not good enough. The precedent is set where MK is more than willing to utilize tactics they once found abhorrent. Ya'll set that, not me.

NPO also used to not bow to smear tactics and would also go to war when smear tactics were utilized against them. Go figure, you just gave me another tactic of NPO that MK utilizes. In fact, this war seems to be in part due to the smear tactics of Sir Paul. The terms in the OP are straight from NPO.

So it is relevant since there are other plays of NPO left unused. Since it is established that MK/DH is more than willing to utilize the playbook, everyone should be prepared for MK/DH to utilize the entire book.

Maybe if ya'll did not want to be associated in this manner, ya'll should have avoided using that playbook to begin with. Or at least kept it to only having been used during the Karma War to end it. I would say that everyone would have given ya'll a pass on that. But ya'll have continued to use said playbook, which means it is only a matter of time before you use the rest of the plays in said playbook.
[/quote]
Just because NPO did something in the past doesn't make it an "NPO" tactic! It's annoying that every discussion has to revolve around what NPO did or didn't do in the past and whether we are "copying" it or not. We follow our own playbook, not NPO's or anyone else's. Morality does not revolve around whether NPO used to do it or not. Debate our actions on their merits not on how they might compare to what NPO did in the past.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Azaghul