Some basic understandings of this war

[Letum]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295555091' post='2587027']
Luckily, it was a parody of the other thread with the [i]exact same name[/i].
[/quote]

Does that make a difference?

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1295555601' post='2587043']
Does that make a difference?
[/quote]Yes.

It has been good chatting.

[zoskia]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295547966' post='2586753']
Are you like the last person to find out this wall a set up? Not even VE is bothering to pretend Polar started this anymore.
[/quote]

Yeah... I don't get why some VE friends are trying to re-write history in this most bizarre way, that is, trying to pretend that VE is fighting a defensive war... and trying to pretend that this wasn't a set up.

[neneko]

[quote name='zoskia' timestamp='1295557208' post='2587097']
Yeah... I don't get why some VE friends are trying to re-write history in this most bizarre way, that is, trying to pretend that VE is fighting a defensive war... and trying to pretend that this wasn't a set up.
[/quote]
I don't think anyone is disputing that Dajobo was baited by Lennox. Lennox intentions doesn't undo Dajobos actions though so unless you claim that Dajobo was in on the setup (and if that was the case I don't think he'd be in polar anymore) the cb is just as solid.

[Mompson]

So how much is VE paying you to post this up?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295539900' post='2586465']
[*] I think it is safe to establish that VE started a defensive war against Polaris, following a government-sanctioned spy attempt.[/quote]
If NpO attacked VE first that might be true, but since NpO didn't attack VE its not a defensive war that was started by VE. Unless a spy attempt is made in-game, whether to consider something as such is based on opinion and still an aggressive war if used as the reasoning. While its clear Lennox was spying imo and trying to get VE to start a war, to say NpO was spying is really stretching the definition to suit your needs.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Methrage

[Banksy]

[quote name='mompson' timestamp='1295559634' post='2587188']
So how much is VE paying you to post this up?
[/quote]
This makes literally no sense.

[Mompson]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1295559979' post='2587199']
This makes literally no sense.
[/quote]

It makes literally complete sense. It was a setup and everybody knows it. This is just someone else spreading the VE side around. We aren't going to be mad when they eventually admit they set it up. We'll just be like all those annoying people on announcements that say "I knew this weeks ago"

[neneko]

[quote name='mompson' timestamp='1295560272' post='2587208']
It makes literally complete sense. It was a setup and everybody knows it. This is just someone else spreading the VE side around. We aren't going to be mad when they eventually admit they set it up. We'll just be like all those annoying people on announcements that say "I knew this weeks ago"
[/quote]
This was a setup by Lennox himself. Lennox came clean with that already. As I feel like I've said a few times already I don't see how his intentions change the actions of dajobo though. Dajobo still sent a spy to VE even if the spy in question turned out to have ulterior motives.

[Banksy]

[quote name='mompson' timestamp='1295560272' post='2587208']
It makes literally complete sense. It was a setup and everybody knows it. This is just someone else spreading the VE side around. We aren't going to be mad when they eventually admit they set it up. We'll just be like all those annoying people on announcements that say "I knew this weeks ago"
[/quote]
Um, what you said was that VE paid Mello to make this topic. That makes no sense.

I couldn't care less about your VE conspiracy theories.

[Mompson]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1295560649' post='2587226']
Um, what you said was that VE paid Mello to make this topic. That makes no sense.

I couldn't care less about your VE conspiracy theories.
[/quote]

lol you're hopeless. It's an expression (not sure if you've learned about those over on your side of the treaty web)

[Chickenzilla]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295539900' post='2586465']
MK kindly didn't roll NpO for the intent.
[/quote]
Oh !@#$. We need to get on this.

[Van Hoo III]

I left because the majority of the RoK government flat out told me that they were [b]not[/b] defending Polar. I didn't leave because some random guy in RoK gov "believed" they weren't going to. Furthermore, the RoK government (almost to a man) contacted me to air their frustrations over that decision and insinuated that they would leave if that decision stood.

So, no ... this isn't just some misunderstanding, over-reaction, or "hissy fit" on my part. RoK initially was not coming in. Period. Anyone who says that they were is simply saying that they would have done so anyway regardless of what was actually decided.

I have no idea what was said to VE or SF.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1295549494' post='2586800']
EDIT: And now I'm a spy. I hope you're happy. Jerk.
[/quote]

That's ok, havent you heard? As the spy you are clear of all blame, you'll probably get a medal from Nordreich in fact.

On the other hand, all the rest of us that just looked at your screenshot, we're the real villains here. We need to be rolled immediately.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1295560431' post='2587214']
This was a setup by Lennox himself. Lennox came clean with that already. As I feel like I've said a few times already I don't see how his intentions change the actions of dajobo though. Dajobo still sent a spy to VE even if the spy in question turned out to have ulterior motives.
[/quote]

If you read the very logs VE posted it is very clear that Dajobo did not send him. He chats with him joking and when Lennox begins to sound more serious Dajobo clearly says they want nothing to do with it. Lennox at that point spying on Polar goes to join VE. He no doubt shares that log with Impero who quickly gives Lennox access to VE info to send to Polar. Things almost fall apart for the first time here as Dajobo is clearly not interested in what Lennox wants to send leading to a second attempt to send screen shots. Here things for the second time almost fall apart again as instead of taking the shots and encouraging Lennox they go to VE to tell them they have a spy. What Polar does not know is that it is they themselves are the ones who have been spied on by Lennox. VE refuses to talk to Polar and before Polar can go public attacks NpO. The ironic thing is VE does not report to Polar that Lennox has log dumped on them and instead uses that spied info for war.

[Banksy]

[quote name='mompson' timestamp='1295560882' post='2587236']
lol you're hopeless. It's an expression (not sure if you've learned about those over on your side of the treaty web)
[/quote]
The fact that the line is a commonly used cliché does not mean that it is devoid of meaning. You made an accusation that VE paid Mello to create this thread, which is clearly false.

[neneko]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295562849' post='2587280']
If you read the very logs VE posted it is very clear that Dajobo did not send him. He chats with him joking and when Lennox begins to sound more serious Dajobo clearly says they want nothing to do with it. Lennox at that point spying on Polar goes to join VE. He no doubt shares that log with Impero who quickly gives Lennox access to VE info to send to Polar. Things almost fall apart for the first time here as Dajobo is clearly not interested in what Lennox wants to send leading to a second attempt to send screen shots. Here things for the second time almost fall apart again as instead of taking the shots and encouraging Lennox they go to VE to tell them they have a spy. What Polar does not know is that it is they themselves are the ones who have been spied on by Lennox. VE refuses to talk to Polar and before Polar can go public attacks NpO. The ironic thing is VE does not report to Polar that Lennox has log dumped on them and instead uses that spied info for war.
[/quote]
You have clearly not been reading the same set of logs that I have. The one that I read wich is the ones that were publicly posted shows Dajobo telling Lennox to spy on either MK or VE. If he thought this was a joke then he should have realized it wasn't once lennox joined VE. Accepting the screenshots after that point clearly shows that it was no joke and that he expected to gain some information from the spy he sent.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1295561514' post='2587255']
I left because the majority of the RoK government flat out told me that they were [b]not[/b] defending Polar. I didn't leave because some random guy in RoK gov "believed" they weren't going to. Furthermore, the RoK government (almost to a man) contacted me to air their frustrations over that decision and insinuated that they would leave if that decision stood.

So, no ... this isn't just some misunderstanding, over-reaction, or "hissy fit" on my part. RoK initially was not coming in. Period. Anyone who says that they were is simply saying that they would have done so anyway regardless of what was actually decided.

I have no idea what was said to VE or SF.
[/quote]
How does a government reach a decision that none of its constituent members is in support of?

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1295569121' post='2587431']
How does a government reach a decision that none of its constituent members is in support of?
[/quote]


Because decisions in Ragnarok are not based on a consensus. The emperor of Ragnarok is to make the best choice, not the most popular one.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1295569766' post='2587439']
Because decisions in Ragnarok are not based on a consensus. The emperor of Ragnarok is to make the best choice, not the most popular one.
[/quote]
But in this case you would argue that the best choice was the most popular one.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1295571138' post='2587463']
But in this case you would argue that the best choice was the most popular one.
[/quote]

In this case, yes.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1295564893' post='2587324']
You have clearly not been reading the same set of logs that I have. The one that I read wich is the ones that were publicly posted shows Dajobo telling Lennox to spy on either MK or VE. If he thought this was a joke then he should have realized it wasn't once lennox joined VE. Accepting the screenshots after that point clearly shows that it was no joke and that he expected to gain some information from the spy he sent.
[/quote]

He expected to gain info? Then why did they go tell VE what was going on as soon as he was sent screen shots? We all know VE attacked so quickly because Polar was going out the entire set up before VE could DoW. VE knew Lennox was not a Polar spy from the start, in fact the only person that was spied on was Dajobo.

[zoskia]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295571931' post='2587480']
He expected to gain info? Then why did they go tell VE what was going on as soon as he was sent screen shots? We all know VE attacked so quickly because Polar was going out the entire set up before VE could DoW. VE knew Lennox was not a Polar spy from the start, in fact the only person that was spied on was Dajobo.
[/quote]

Funny thing is that we ALL know that this is the truth.
VE is trying to re-write History with the old "lie, lie, lie till it becomes the truth" strategy.
Of course, it won't work.

It would have been more respectable to attack Polaris with the "we don't like you" CB than this poor set up that makes the VE look really bad and desperate.

Thank you, The Big Bad, for telling the simple truth as it is.

[zzzptm]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1295552400' post='2586918']
Interesting that you called this information both a 'game-changer' and 'not a game-changer' in the space of a few posts.

You contend that RoK made a more or less last-minute, guilt-inspired decision to defend Polaris after Hoo departed. I actually heard much the same thing. In fact, I heard it [i]personally[/i] from Hoo himself when he and I last spoke. (Fun fact: It was Hoo and I who negotiated the treaty between Ragnarok and Nordreich.)

After this, I spoke with RoK's Emperor (among other government members) who contradicted what Hoo was saying, although one of them did say that, in his opinion, there was some mis-communication that had gone on.

And then, after a bit of looking on my own forum, I discovered that we had in fact been advised of Ragnarok's attack on PC approximately 40 hours before it occurred, and only a few hours after Hoo left Ragnarok for Polaris.

You are welcome to argue with my interpretation. However, I do not believe you can deny that I heard information that would have cast an ally in a rather unfavorable light, and I continued to dig until I was satisfied that I arrived at the truth. It's called [i]due diligence[/i]. It's what people do when presented with conflicting accounts.

I cannot speak to why Hoo said what he did, except that perhaps he misunderstood one government member saying "Let's stay out of this" as representing the opinion of the entire government. But this is all conjecture. I don't [i]know[/i] that this is what happened, but in light of the available evidence it makes much more sense than "Ragnarok felt guilty."
[/quote]
We of Himynamistan support Ashoka the Great because we have a thing for walruses that are level-headed and not prone to propaganda-bashing, but will instead hold those in power to proper accountability.

[LeonidasRexII]

One thing I find funny is that Ragnarok was considered one of the most honorable alliances in the game. And now that they are doing what they've always done, namely honor their treaties despite what the treaty web is like, are getting blasted by those who just a short time ago were singing their praises.