Declaration of War

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1293325213' post='2553843']
You know Sparta has a terrible reputation on Planet Bob for both its military skills and its lack of loyalty to allies. Drifting into already won wars and demanding reps damaged that Sparta's reputation even more. Jumping into this already won war and the acting all mighty just adds to that terrible reputation. So long as Sparta continues to switch to whatever side its thinks is going be in power your lack of military and diplomatic abilities do not matter as much. But, if you ever miss your chance at changing sides, then Admin help you if you are ever in anything close to a fair fight. And with your history of rep demands for doing nothing, you had better hope you keep on choosing the right side. You should not be bragging you should be embarrased. And Sparta you really should take a hint from ODN about reparing your reputation.
[/quote]

There's a difference between having a bad reputation and a couple jackwads who talk loudly and assert their opinion as truth.

[Dubsy]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1293327872' post='2553891']
There's a difference between having a bad reputation and a couple jackwads who talk loudly and assert their opinion as truth.
[/quote]

Hey now, it makes the difference a little bit bigger when they're spot on.

[o-dog]

From our recent experience, if Sparta ever finds herself matched or outgunned, she will struggle. I guess you have to salute the skill of the Spartan politicos.

[Lukapaka]

[quote name='Calderone' timestamp='1293270892' post='2553506']
This would be an official shift in Sparta policy? Cause it certainly never stopped you fellas before. You've taken reps and demanded reps both in similar situations.


All or some reps there, buddy? Cause TOOL certainly remembers reps and IRON certainly remembers taking some of the reps demanded of TOOL initially. But please do continue to play the kind and warm hearted soul.
[/quote]

Official shift in policy? No, I'm not stating a broad Spartan policy. I'm saying by the looks of the parties directly involved with Sparta, we don't need nor want reparations. NEW is the problem here, not their other allies. As for what's Sparta done in the past, I was not in Sparta's gov during any war until now. I remember speaking against reps from TOOL and supporting waiving IRON's reps, but like I said, this was simply with my voice as a member, not government.

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1293325213' post='2553843']
You know Sparta has a terrible reputation on Planet Bob for both its military skills and its lack of loyalty to allies. Drifting into already won wars and demanding reps damaged that Sparta's reputation even more. Jumping into this already won war and the acting all mighty just adds to that terrible reputation. So long as Sparta continues to switch to whatever side its thinks is going be in power your lack of military and diplomatic abilities do not matter as much. But, if you ever miss your chance at changing sides, then Admin help you if you are ever in anything close to a fair fight. And with your history of rep demands for doing nothing, you had better hope you keep on choosing the right side. You should not be bragging you should be embarrased. And Sparta you really should take a hint from ODN about reparing your reputation.
[/quote]

If that first line were actually the truth, why would we a) be standing by our allies now, and b) still have so many good friends throughout the game? Big Bad, you are either lacking a LOT of information about this war, or are just ignorant in general. You can berate Sparta for having a hard time losing but the truth is, if we really did betray such a [i]significant [/i]number of alliances to save our own ass... we wouldn't have any friends today.

Though perhaps you're right, we should have picked the [i]losing[/i] side of this war. Fought with NEW, or something....
Oh not what you meant? Ok then I'll try again. Perhaps you're right. We should have told Fark and ODN to shove off when they asked us to fight the people attacking them. OH WAIT! THAT MAKES US TERRIBLE ALLIES!!!

Big Bad, I know it's difficult for a bridge dweller like you to understand, but there was absolutely nothing Sparta could have done in this instance to appease you and your kind. So please, step back, quit complaining about anything we do, and let us rock out how we do.

[jeff barr]

[quote name='Lukapaka' timestamp='1293335964' post='2553980']
Big Bad, I know it's difficult for a bridge dweller like you to understand, but there was absolutely nothing Sparta could have done in this instance to appease you and your kind. So please, step back, quit complaining about anything we do, and let us rock out how we do.
[/quote]
Yeah, I don't get this guy. We used to be fwiends.


[quote name='O-Dog' timestamp='1293328784' post='2553900']
From our recent experience, if Sparta ever finds herself matched or outgunned, she will struggle. I guess you have to salute the skill of the Spartan politicos.
[/quote]
oh the tears of butthurt.

That's kinda funny coming from you, considering shinpah and I both put our [i]hands[/i] pretty deep in your [i]cookiejar[/i] despite us maxing out our slots, and one of your allies had a 200mil wc@17K infra. It's a shame we won't get to double nuke you tonight. Good luck out there.

[PatBrown1413]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1293325213' post='2553843']
You know Sparta has a terrible reputation on Planet Bob for both its military skills and its lack of loyalty to allies. Drifting into already won wars and demanding reps damaged that Sparta's reputation even more. Jumping into this already won war and the acting all mighty just adds to that terrible reputation. So long as Sparta continues to switch to whatever side its thinks is going be in power your lack of military and diplomatic abilities do not matter as much. But, if you ever miss your chance at changing sides, then Admin help you if you are ever in anything close to a fair fight. And with your history of rep demands for doing nothing, you had better hope you keep on choosing the right side. You should not be bragging you should be embarrased. And Sparta you really should take a hint from ODN about reparing your reputation.
[/quote]

1) When did we act all mighty? We knew this war was overkill, but when our allies call on us to watch our backs we will do it. Overkill or not!

2) If we have such terrible diplomatic skills then how do we always end up on the winning side? And why would we have so many allies still if we had no loyalty? Also, how would we have allies if we have terrible diplomatic skills, and a lack of loyalty?

Kind of contradicted yourself.

3) When were we bragging?!!?!?!??!?!?! The guy said we love war. Is that bragging?

Your obviously a Sparta hater with no knowledge. If we didn't join this war you would probably saying we're cowards, and afraid to lose some pixels.
So, it's a lose, lose situation.

[mrcalkin]

Sparta: haters are always going to hate. I like what you are doing, and I think Umbrella as a whole feels the same. Who cares what the naysayers think, especially when its those same tired faces spouting the same drivel for the thousandth time. I know y'all are stand up folk, just like I knew you were the first time our alliances met years ago, and this situation just helps reinforce that.

[Penkala]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1293325213' post='2553843']
You know Sparta has a terrible reputation on Planet Bob for both its military skills and its lack of loyalty to allies. Drifting into already won wars and demanding reps damaged that Sparta's reputation even more. Jumping into this already won war and the acting all mighty just adds to that terrible reputation. So long as Sparta continues to switch to whatever side its thinks is going be in power your lack of military and diplomatic abilities do not matter as much. But, if you ever miss your chance at changing sides, then Admin help you if you are ever in anything close to a fair fight. And with your history of rep demands for doing nothing, you had better hope you keep on choosing the right side. You should not be bragging you should be embarrased. And Sparta you really should take a hint from ODN about reparing your reputation.
[/quote]

You know that you have a terrible reputation on Planet Bob for your own lack of loyalty to allies, right?

Please don't throw those stones, TBB. You may break something.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Penkala

[PatBrown1413]

[quote name='mrcalkin' timestamp='1293344317' post='2554172']
Sparta: haters are always going to hate. I like what you are doing, and I think Umbrella as a whole feels the same. Who cares what the naysayers think, especially when its those same tired faces spouting the same drivel for the thousandth time. I know y'all are stand up folk, just like I knew you were the first time our alliances met years ago, and this situation just helps reinforce that.
[/quote]


Thank you!

I really have to get more involved with FA! I'll stop by your public IRC sometime

[Charles Stuart]

Poor sparta, every announcement they make turns into a hatefest.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1293327872' post='2553891']
There's a difference between having a bad reputation and a couple jackwads who talk loudly and assert their opinion as truth.
[/quote]

If you consider the opinion of most of the leadership of Planet Bob, including some of your own current allies a couple of jackwads then you just keep living in that fantasy land. However you do not need opinion all you need is fact. The fact is Sparta has always performed poorly at war. The Fact is Spara likes to ask for reps in wars they came into late and had little to do with, the fact is you have no loyalty to anyone and change sides as soon as you see the tide turning. The fact is in any major conflict Sparta will always be regulated to backing others up. You go ahead and ask in the next major war to take on an important assignment and see the reaction you get from your allies. I think you and I both know how that will end.

Of course you could prove me wrong and actually go to the mat for an ally sometime instead of juming sides. ODN has mangaged to repair their reputation that they also, for a long time, pretended was not shared by everyone. Once they were willing to admit they were a Planet Bob laughing stock they were able to take an honest look at themselves and fix things. ODN jokes are a thing of the past while LOL Sparta is as popular as ever. Why do you think that is? Oh thats right its just a couple of jackwads. You really think anyone is buying that?

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1293344701' post='2554179']
You know that you have a terrible reputation on Planet Bob for your own lack of loyalty to allies, right?

Please don't throw those stones, TBB. You may break something.
[/quote]

No, what ally have I ever failed to back? This I would like to hear.

[FreddieMercury]

[quote name='PatBrown1413' timestamp='1293343697' post='2554162']
If we have such terrible diplomatic skills then how do we always end up on the winning side? [/quote]

I lol'd, really hard. No disputing that, NPO knows first hand.

[quote]
Your obviously a Sparta hater with no knowledge. If we didn't join this war you would probably saying we're cowards, and afraid to lose some pixels.
So, it's a lose, lose situation.
[/quote]

ODN has quite the treaty list at its disposal and could have easily called upon more suitable opponents for Europa, furthermore judging from war-hawkish comments your gov have made in the open, you guys pushed for you own involvement. Which is understandable and all (who doesn't enjoy a war that they risk so little in) but to push yourselves as honorable allies who came into this war just to honor treaties is just laughable.

[Penkala]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1293379773' post='2554395']
No, what ally have I ever failed to back? This I would like to hear.
[/quote]

Oh, you backed them alright. You just [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=2289&st=0]bailed[/url] as soon as possible after that.

I guess my point is that most alliances eventually make decisions that are best for their members and allies and may not be popular or hailed on the OWF (especially by those who feel the need to continue the perception of Sparta as the 'Legion of PB', for some reason). Sparta seems to be as reliable an ally as any other. I don't see them sitting out wars or anything. In fact, they always seem to be fighting for their allies in these wars, so I'm not sure why you feel a need to attack them about 'not defending allies'. Especially with that little gem in your history.

[quote]ODN has quite the treaty list at its disposal and could have easily called upon more suitable opponents for Europa, furthermore judging from war-hawkish comments your gov have made in the open, you guys pushed for you own involvement. Which is understandable and all (who doesn't enjoy a war that they risk so little in) but to push yourselves as honorable allies who came into this war just to honor treaties is just laughable. [/quote]

Hi Freddie, I see you're new to alliance warfare. Here are a couple of reasons why ODN would consider calling in the Sparta treaty rather than a treaty with an alliance Europa's size:

[list=1]
[*] Warfare isn't about fielding an equal amount of nations to face off against each other.. ODN would have been stupid to call in as few people as possible to help with Europa. If they called in a Europa-sized alliance to counter Europa, that small alliance would have received much more damage. That's just not smart.

[*] In alliance warfare, things called 'treaties' are often involved. In a large war like this, when one alliance counters another, there is a high probability that a counter to [i]that[/i] will follow. For this reason, coalitions may choose to have a certain alliance begin a counter because of their ties, to allow the coalition to most effectively respond to the counter from the other side.
[/list]

In the end, it doesn't matter. You have 3 defending slots maximum. It doesn't matter if you get hit by 200 or 2,000 nations, really. So quit your whining.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Penkala

[greenacres]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1293345634' post='2554197']
Poor sparta, every announcement they make turns into a hatefest.
[/quote]

The only problem with sparta is that they claim they're something that they just simply aren't. There's nothing wrong with what they are, kudos to them for being around as long as they have, but they aren't an alliance built for war, they're not a well respected warring alliance like they claim, and they bring it on themselves by spouting off about how awesome they are at war all the time. They're not, they're just not built for it, and there's absolutely, positively nothing wrong with that. What they're built for is politics/nation building/nation growth, all very useful things, and all stuff they should be proud of, because they're GOOD at it. If they stopped claiming that they're something they're not, their announcements wouldn't turn into hatefests.

[angryraccoon]

Something that they are and have every right to claim is a good ally. Sparta has always been there for Athens and they are the best of friends during war and peace. They also in the past year + have gone to bat and war for their allies and have done a decent job.

I know that legacies and opinions are very slow to change. Sparta not being loyal and willing to go to war no matter the odds is one though.

[greenacres]

[quote name='angryraccoon' timestamp='1293383808' post='2554421']
Something that they are and have every right to claim is a good ally. Sparta has always been there for Athens and they are the best of friends during war and peace. They also in the past year + have gone to bat and war for their allies and have done a decent job.

I know that legacies and opinions are very slow to change. Sparta not being loyal and willing to go to war no matter the odds is one though.
[/quote]

Being willing to go to war is different from being a well respected warring alliance. Sparta's history is going to be a tough one to change, because their history is filled with them being tied to different sides of the treaty web, only to magically pick the winning side during a conflict, that's not really how you build a decent reputation when it comes to war and fighting. So be it though, right? Again, they have nothing to be ashamed of, but they're just not built for war, which is something they should embrace instead of trying to re-write their history to fit their ideal view of themselves.

They're very good friends, they're very good at politics, and very good at nation building. Play up your positives, downplay your negatives. War isn't one of their strengths, so what though? Like you said, they're a good ally. Play up that angle rather than try to play up the "we're so awesome when it comes to war, everyone is jealous of how good we are!" angle.

Edited December 26, 2010 by greenacres

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1293379718' post='2554394']
If you consider the opinion of most of the leadership of Planet Bob, including some of your own current allies a couple of jackwads then you just keep living in that fantasy land. However you do not need opinion all you need is fact. The fact is Sparta has always performed poorly at war. The Fact is Spara likes to ask for reps in wars they came into late and had little to do with, the fact is you have no loyalty to anyone and change sides as soon as you see the tide turning. The fact is in any major conflict Sparta will always be regulated to backing others up. You go ahead and ask in the next major war to take on an important assignment and see the reaction you get from your allies. I think you and I both know how that will end.

Of course you could prove me wrong and actually go to the mat for an ally sometime instead of juming sides. ODN has mangaged to repair their reputation that they also, for a long time, pretended was not shared by everyone. Once they were willing to admit they were a Planet Bob laughing stock they were able to take an honest look at themselves and fix things. ODN jokes are a thing of the past while LOL Sparta is as popular as ever. Why do you think that is? Oh thats right its just a couple of jackwads. You really think anyone is buying that?
[/quote]
I disagree with you. Your point is invalid.

[Bob]

[quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1293324672' post='2553837']
Didn't someone try to do that to NSO a lil while back.......
[/quote]
No. Stop. You don't even know what you are saying at this point.

[Robster83]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1293389039' post='2554469']
I disagree with you. Your point is invalid.
[/quote]

You would wouldn't you? Feel free to elaborate on why you disagree... Or you just posting for the sake of it?

[Kongo Jack IV]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1293411154' post='2554777']
No. Stop. You don't even know what you are saying at this point.
[/quote]

Rightttttttttttttttt, I call them like I see them (or in this case read)

Kthanx

[Enzos]

[quote name='Robster83' timestamp='1293411601' post='2554783']
You would wouldn't you? Feel free to elaborate on why you disagree... Or you just posting for the sake of it?
[/quote]

You do your homework instead, your post made no sense at all. A tip: check CNwiki.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Robster83' timestamp='1293411601' post='2554783']
You would wouldn't you? Feel free to elaborate on why you disagree... Or you just posting for the sake of it?
[/quote]
Well, that's all these forums really come down to isn't it? "I disagree with you. Your point is invalid." That's the embodiment of any argument...ever.

[the damned]

[quote name='greenacres' timestamp='1293387999' post='2554461']
Being willing to go to war is different from being a well respected warring alliance. Sparta's history is going to be a tough one to change, because their history is filled with them being tied to different sides of the treaty web, only to magically pick the winning side during a conflict, that's not really how you build a decent reputation when it comes to war and fighting. So be it though, right?
[/quote]


Pardon me if I am mistaken, but i thought the point of any war was to be on the [i]winning side[/i]. I never knew that winning a war and being good at fighting were so contradictory. Well Sparta: looks like we're doing it wrong

[erikz]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1293018545' post='2549853']
NEW sure could've used yours (and PC's).
[/quote]
Like that was my call :')