CN Alternate History

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1292392274' post='2540029']
I don't see it being viable without Gremlins or Umbrella. It wouldn't have changed Gre's direction.
[/quote]
I agree that Gremlins with Ramirus in charge they would of still of left, but FCC, Old Guard, Argent and TOP would still be 4 signatories, the same amount as when the bloc was founded and more could of been added.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1292386719' post='2539946']
I used all my clout as Minister of Defense in the RIA to push one of our trivumvirates to side with UJP. RIA (MK MDP) brought ASC (GOONS MDP), and fark was gave MHA and NATO the finger and went with SF on the Unjust Highway, and even though we lost, i don't regret that at all.

The only reason I did that was because you protected us, and for that you have my thanks.

Sparta on the other hand grabbed a handful of Order...

<333
[/quote]
Except zombie2000 was MoD and we didn't have a Triumvirate then.

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1292392844' post='2540036']
Except zombie2000 was MoD and we didn't have a Triumvirate then.
[/quote]

Zombie was inactive, so you left me and kaiser in charge while you took the last chunk of targets. I talked to Moth who was doing something at the time.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Emperor Whimsical

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1292393213' post='2540043']
Zombie was inactive, so you left me and kaiser in charge while you took the last chunk of targets. I talked to Moth who was doing something at the time.
[/quote]
I took charge, took a third of the work for myself, passed off a third to Kaiser, and you and C-zom split the remaining third.

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1292393537' post='2540045']
I took charge, took a third of the work for myself, passed off a third to Kaiser, and you and C-zom split the remaining third.
[/quote]

STOP IT

[Biazt]

If anyone actually thinks the Bilrow deal was why TPF surrendered they're incredibly naive.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292369999' post='2539793']
Edit:

Heres a "what if". What if Legion had actually fought decently in GW3? If Legion had put up a credible defense/offense in that war, they would have still lost due to other factors, but the AEGIS side would not have lost as badly, and Legion would have in a better position after the war. Due to Legion not being labeled the "paper tiger", and having war experience under their belt, perhaps they would have been able to rally allies to be a counter bloc to the Initiative after the war. Not right away, but perhaps they would have remained independent, but strong as an alliance, instead of the easy prey that Valhalla and NPO found (Valhalla because Valhalla had the CB which started the "Dove" War which was right before the Unjust War, when Valhalla, MCXA, \m/, Genmay, and GOONS all hit Legion, but Legion largely got to peace mode). Perhaps that war would not have happened, or it if did could have triggered the next great war. With a strong Legion out there for anti WUT alliances to flock to, perhaps the Initiative would have stuck together for a little while longer. Perhaps still splintering later, but the fear of a strong anti WUT force would have kept them together until the outside force was destroyed.
[/quote]

Who knows, maybe LUE and NAAC would not have disbanded had Legion lived up to the perception.

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292378417' post='2539867']
I agree that Sponge saw it as a way to manipulate NPO and JB and Sponge were able to convince enough people that GOONS was making a power play. NPO fell for it, as did so many others.

That is not to say the UjP might not have eventually become a power play for GOONS to be more dominant than NPO, but at the time the UjW war rolled around there was absolutely no plan or plot to overthrow NPO; the UjP saw NPO as an ally (well all but GS and MK, who were the only members to not have overlapping membership in the WUT). An ally who, if leadership changed, would become an enemy, whose advisors were bent on destroying GOONS.

Mr wonderful's actions were definately masterful, as was JB's. That coalition was formed excellently, and both were able to maximize their potential due to our ineptitude. It also helped that there was a general feeling of unease, mistrust, anger, and fear prevelant in the world at the time over Black Friday. The Community itself was divided, and rallied behind the so called "justice league", later renamed to ~ because the name was so bad

Anyway, Mr wonderful and JB did a great job at executing their plan. To everyone's suprise that plan was executed to even more success than they had ever hoped. They succeded in disbanding the then #3 alliance (GOONS) and the #5 or 6 alliance (\m/) at the time, who at the start of the war was one sanction spot above NpO, who had about half the members.

Perhaps that was not their intent, but nevertheless it happened, and it has shaped the cyberverse as we see it today.

If \m/ and GOONS had never disbanded, but had been able to secure a peace, the world today would be different. Perhaps the UjP would have survived, however the grudges would still be there, as many in the UjP viewed the breakup of the WUT and the refusal of former WUT aliances to enter the war in our defense as a betrayal. If the UjP had survived that war, with GOONS and \m/ not disbanding, I can garauntee you would've seen a cold war between them and BLEU, waiting for a rematch.

How that would've turned out would depend on the quality of the leaders in the alliances, as well as if BLEU had tried to be the power players and made a lot of people angry like they did before Continuum rolled them.
[/quote]

Genmay and \m/ disbanded at the end of the UjW. GOONS held out longer before disbanding.

[Phetion]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1292307868' post='2539311']
This. It was a damn shame it turned out like it did. We'd have won that war which would have prevented the BiPolar (or whatever it's being called) War.
[/quote]


You're damn right about that. It was a shame Crymson acted on his own accord and secured a deal without any of our permissions, never mind going completely against his own GM's orders. I remember pushing so hard in the negotiations with Polar and STA to try and leave them with no option but to declare on us, it was a shame that deal had been made prior to these talks. Unfortunately they were happy with the 3 or 6 million they got before we stopped Crymson and OBR.

Kronos never forgave TOP for that, and it was the turning point away from you, and that 'side' of things. I almost fondly remember my drunken cancellation notice to TOP. (That didn't go down too well at all, but only one member of Kronos was mad at me for the way I cancelled it, I guess that shows how far relations had fallen since Crymson).

Shout out to Valhalla throughout that though, even before they knew it was STA we were bumping heads with.

[Biff Webster]

If GPA, TDO and GOP attacked NSO over the spam messages?

[JBone]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292378417' post='2539867']
I find it suspect TPF was the only alliance in that coalition to get white peace. MK who surrender a day or 2 after you got harsh terms, they wouldn't even let Genmay or \m/ surrender yet, and surrender terms for GOONS were out of the question at the time. With your then allies on the chopping bloc, you accepted white peace and promptly flipped to the other side. We enterred that war together, and you left it first and went to those who helped bury us.

If there was no deal at the start of the war, you sure got a hell of a break and promptly used it to screw over your then allies.
[/quote]
The way it all panned out left a bitter taste in many mouths in TPF. Weeks, if not months, of internal strife followed with the end result being many excellent, long time members leaving. Seems that regardless of which [i]path[/i] we took we would have been viewed as screwing over someone.


[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1292388300' post='2539966']
Been active and paying plenty of attention since October of 2006. [b]I heard it straight from Sponge's mouth. TPF sold out the Unjust Path to save their own ass. There's no getting around it.
[/b][/quote]
Oh, well, then it must be gospel truth. Far be if from ES to ever twist, manipulate or fabricate facts to suit his agenda.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1292389262' post='2539976']
There was a period of "enforced vacation" that figures in as I recall...

At any rate, Slayer's stated reason to me for departing the field had significantly more to do with the whole Bilrow episode than any pre-war agreement. Whether that is actually how to went down would be something for him to answer and at this point he's not exactly around to defend himself.
[/quote]
Yes Hal it did.

And when he departed this world and left TPF in my hands this was the one thing that I asked him to come clean about. If there were any pre war shens he would have admitted it then and there, no reason not to at that point. Slayer did many things in his time here, ranging from comical to distasteful....one thing I believe he never did was lie to me.


[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1292389607' post='2539982']
The Bilrow noise was simply a good opportunity to fulfill the pre-war agreement with ~ and to gain a few moral points for everybody's favorite white knight crusader Slayer99.[/quote]
If anything you have it backwards.

The [i]Bilrow noise[/i], as you put it, was the only circumstance in which TPF was out of the war, and the involved parties knew that beforehand. Slayer drew the line in the sand...perhaps 404 wanted to see how firm that line was and intentionally pushed it.....who knows. The fact is the line was crossed.

The one concession I will make is that once that line was crossed, perhaps Slayer saw it as a way out of an untenable situation and the white peace was formulated between he and Sponge. In retrospect, it could have been handled better......they were crazy times.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1292392424' post='2540030']
I agree that Gremlins with Ramirus in charge they would of still of left, but FCC, Old Guard, Argent and TOP would still be 4 signatories, the same amount as when the bloc was founded and more could of been added.
[/quote]

Cit was tearing itself apart,
and it wasn't only Ram, but the likes of Bob, Syz, LM etc that were in on the arguments,
OG had to go or the block would have collapsed,

What killed the block was what followed,
communication died,
TOP built on its relations with IRON at the expense of all else,
Gre spent months turning inwards and tearing its leadership apart
Umb wondered off in its own direction

and admin alone knows what FCC and Argent were up to

The better question for cit is what would have happened if Syz, Zere, Motu et al hadn't become jaded and inactive after the end of Karma and had instead provided some leadership, or if they had realised they were in no state to continue leading and actually sorted out a succession, rather than hanging around whilst the second tier became frustrated and left, had those who sodded off to form Kronos been allowed to ascend to the gov of gre at the appropriate time things would have been very different

[General Scipio]

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1292386719' post='2539946']
I used all my clout as Minister of Defense in the RIA to push one of our trivumvirates to side with UJP. RIA (MK MDP) brought ASC (GOONS MDP), and fark was gave MHA and NATO the finger and went with SF on the Unjust Highway, and even though we lost, i don't regret that at all.

The only reason I did that was because you protected us, and for that you have my thanks.

Sparta on the other hand grabbed a handful of Order...

<333
[/quote]
Superfriends joined the war because GOONS said Fark wouldn't have to keep paying reps if they joined, and they had an in with the ASC MDP. They didn't really have many other treaties to the other side.

Oh and Fark declared war first, so it was MHA and NATO that choose the other side.

Edited December 16, 2010 by General Scipio

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='SynthFG' timestamp='1292446524' post='2540332']
Cit was tearing itself apart,
and it wasn't only Ram, but the likes of Bob, Syz, LM etc that were in on the arguments,
OG had to go or the block would have collapsed,

What killed the block was what followed,
communication died,
TOP built on its relations with IRON at the expense of all else,
Gre spent months turning inwards and tearing its leadership apart
Umb wondered off in its own direction

and admin alone knows what FCC and Argent were up to

The better question for cit is what would have happened if Syz, Zere, Motu et al hadn't become jaded and inactive after the end of Karma and had instead provided some leadership, or if they had realised they were in no state to continue leading and actually sorted out a succession, rather than hanging around whilst the second tier became frustrated and left, had those who sodded off to form Kronos been allowed to ascend to the gov of gre at the appropriate time things would have been very different
[/quote]

Citadel had been a very sick creature for a very long time by the end of Karma. I can't recall a serious discussion that didn't result in cyclical arguments for pages upon pages on the cit forums or one that actually accomplished anything. Each alliance had its own, deep-seated issues with the bloc and the attempts to push for Citadel unity after Karma seemed very hollow and without substance. While there were definitely enjoyable times within the bloc, my memory is overwhelmingly filled with disagreement, "friends" undermining each other, and being secondary to Q for those alliances that were a part of that bloc. It was unfortunate, but when we finally dissolved it, to me it seemed like a great yoke was taken off our shoulders.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292424141' post='2540172']
Who knows, maybe LUE and NAAC would not have disbanded had Legion lived up to the perception.
[/quote]
Perhaps, although LUE's disbandment was more because they had enterred GW3 by DOWing Genmay while LUE was still under terms from GW2 if I remember right. LUE was under terms and broke them to fight GW3, they believed that NPO would not let them survive or get terms they could live with, so they disbanded afterwords.

Not knowing the NAAC situation I cannot comment on that. But perhaps if Legion had lived up to its #3 position and fought well, perhaps it would've had the clout to achieve peace for LUE and NAAC as well. Without either disbanding, it would've taken a while to rebuild but they were established alliances who could have made a difference later.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292424141' post='2540172']
Genmay and \m/ disbanded at the end of the UjW. GOONS held out longer before disbanding.
[/quote]
Right, what I meant was that if \m/ and Genmay had gotten terms perhaps GOONS would have as well. If they didn't disband and stuck it out with GOONS, all 3 could have eventually got peace. At the time GOONS was almost universally hated for 404's actions on their offsite, private sovereign territory (whatever their offsite forums could be called in character). GOONS had a lot of members, and most of them had warchests in an era that still believed in banking nations, essentially if the GOONS had the will and had the allies to continue to fight the war, they still would've lost but perhaps not disbanded. Then again if Bilrows crusade was left unchecked GOONS was never going to get peace, so they would've been forced to live out a FAN style war, which they did for several months. THe terms of MK's peace was to drop all treaties, the terms of TPF's white peace was to drop the WUT and UjP treaties (or was it drop all treaties with WUT and UjP members?). If MK at least had stuck with GOONS, \m/, and Genmay until all had gotten peace, that would have changed things. Even if MK was deadset on leaving the war, an UjP with GOONS, \m/, and Genmay had oppurtunity to expand. The few Unjust Highway alliances that stuck it out were absolutely loved by those who continued fighting. GOD was held in great esteem by GOONS when GOD stuck it out after \m/ and Genmay disbanded, and it was publicly stated GOONS would not be getting peace.

If that version of the UjP had survived, they could have expanded and gotten closer to Superfriends, perhaps GOD could have joined the Unjust instead of SF.

Still, if the UjP had survived, reps would have been so harsh they would have been under terms through the next big war. With the Unjust still around and having continued to fight that war, BLEU's victory would not have been to resolute. They had a lot of coalition members to soak up the damage, but if the Unjust had taken ques from FAN and just focused their counterattacks on certain alliances, they would have taken severe damage, perhaps enough for them to be crippled from that war, the same way FAN crippled NPO until the TOP sent 300 million to NPO to keep them affloat. If the Unjust had adopted those tactics, defeat was a given but BLEU would have been in a much relative weaker position than they were left in.

With BLEU having sustained heavy damage in the war, but receiving a good amount of reps, perhaps BLEU would not have been in such a dominant position after the war. If they had been rebuilding for 3-6 months after the damage the Unjust had done to them (rebuilding with the reps), they might not have had the power to adopt their own agressive power plays. Perhaps when they extorted NADC NADC might have seen a weaker BLEU, perhaps alliances on the sidelines would have stood up against BLEU then, especially with the Unjust still around to run propoganda against BLEU.

With BLEU not having the power, yet, to make power plays without their non BLEU allies, perhaps the Citadel/Polar war might not have happened, leaving Polar in a much stronger position on paper, but leaving their military outdated. Meanwhile with an UjP having finally payed off their reps and rebuilt, their military tactics would be different, being focused on doing the most damage to their enemies in the least amount of time, ditching the bank theory of warfare and going for the "nuke rogue" theory. With an Unjust Path, perhaps expanded and rebuilt, would have had a rematch with BLEU. Continuum/Citadel, seeing that the UjP and BLEU as potential rivals, let them duke it out, destroying each other. The Unjust Path defeats BLEU in the "2nd unjust war", and in doing so becomes a threat to Continuum and a Continuum/Unjust "cold war" begans. Perhaps "Karma" wouldn't have been "Karma", but "Unjust Path vs Continuum".

Eh, its a thought anyway

[General Scipio]

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1292435567' post='2540251']
You're damn right about that. It was a shame Crymson acted on his own accord and secured a deal without any of our permissions, never mind going completely against his own GM's orders. I remember pushing so hard in the negotiations with Polar and STA to try and leave them with no option but to declare on us, it was a shame that deal had been made prior to these talks. Unfortunately they were happy with the 3 or 6 million they got before we stopped Crymson and OBR.

Kronos never forgave TOP for that, and it was the turning point away from you, and that 'side' of things. I almost fondly remember my drunken cancellation notice to TOP. (That didn't go down too well at all, but only one member of Kronos was mad at me for the way I cancelled it, I guess that shows how far relations had fallen since Crymson).

Shout out to Valhalla throughout that though, even before they knew it was STA we were bumping heads with.
[/quote]
It was Kissgoodbye that stopped it, not Crymson.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292458910' post='2540492']
Perhaps, although LUE's disbandment was more because they had enterred GW3 by DOWing Genmay while LUE was still under terms from GW2 if I remember right. LUE was under terms and broke them to fight GW3, they believed that NPO would not let them survive or get terms they could live with, so they disbanded afterwords.

Not knowing the NAAC situation I cannot comment on that. But perhaps if Legion had lived up to its #3 position and fought well, perhaps it would've had the clout to achieve peace for LUE and NAAC as well. Without either disbanding, it would've taken a while to rebuild but they were established alliances who could have made a difference later.[/quote]

LUE defended FARK from GOONS iirc and that caused GWIII. LUE claimed a treaty that no one knew about with FARK. i don't remember if they were still under terms or not but it does sound plausible.


[quote]Right, what I meant was that if \m/ and Genmay had gotten terms perhaps GOONS would have as well. If they didn't disband and stuck it out with GOONS, all 3 could have eventually got peace. At the time GOONS was almost universally hated for 404's actions on their offsite, private sovereign territory (whatever their offsite forums could be called in character). GOONS had a lot of members, and most of them had warchests in an era that still believed in banking nations, essentially if the GOONS had the will and had the allies to continue to fight the war, they still would've lost but perhaps not disbanded. Then again if Bilrows crusade was left unchecked GOONS was never going to get peace, so they would've been forced to live out a FAN style war, which they did for several months. THe terms of MK's peace was to drop all treaties, the terms of TPF's white peace was to drop the WUT and UjP treaties (or was it drop all treaties with WUT and UjP members?). If MK at least had stuck with GOONS, \m/, and Genmay until all had gotten peace, that would have changed things. Even if MK was deadset on leaving the war, an UjP with GOONS, \m/, and Genmay had oppurtunity to expand. The few Unjust Highway alliances that stuck it out were absolutely loved by those who continued fighting. GOD was held in great esteem by GOONS when GOD stuck it out after \m/ and Genmay disbanded, and it was publicly stated GOONS would not be getting peace.

If that version of the UjP had survived, they could have expanded and gotten closer to Superfriends, perhaps GOD could have joined the Unjust instead of SF.

Still, if the UjP had survived, reps would have been so harsh they would have been under terms through the next big war. With the Unjust still around and having continued to fight that war, BLEU's victory would not have been to resolute. They had a lot of coalition members to soak up the damage, but if the Unjust had taken ques from FAN and just focused their counterattacks on certain alliances, they would have taken severe damage, perhaps enough for them to be crippled from that war, the same way FAN crippled NPO until the TOP sent 300 million to NPO to keep them affloat. If the Unjust had adopted those tactics, defeat was a given but BLEU would have been in a much relative weaker position than they were left in.

With BLEU having sustained heavy damage in the war, but receiving a good amount of reps, perhaps BLEU would not have been in such a dominant position after the war. If they had been rebuilding for 3-6 months after the damage the Unjust had done to them (rebuilding with the reps), they might not have had the power to adopt their own agressive power plays. Perhaps when they extorted NADC NADC might have seen a weaker BLEU, perhaps alliances on the sidelines would have stood up against BLEU then, especially with the Unjust still around to run propoganda against BLEU.

With BLEU not having the power, yet, to make power plays without their non BLEU allies, perhaps the Citadel/Polar war might not have happened, leaving Polar in a much stronger position on paper, but leaving their military outdated. Meanwhile with an UjP having finally payed off their reps and rebuilt, their military tactics would be different, being focused on doing the most damage to their enemies in the least amount of time, ditching the bank theory of warfare and going for the "nuke rogue" theory. With an Unjust Path, perhaps expanded and rebuilt, would have had a rematch with BLEU. Continuum/Citadel, seeing that the UjP and BLEU as potential rivals, let them duke it out, destroying each other. The Unjust Path defeats BLEU in the "2nd unjust war", and in doing so becomes a threat to Continuum and a Continuum/Unjust "cold war" begans. Perhaps "Karma" wouldn't have been "Karma", but "Unjust Path vs Continuum".

Eh, its a thought anyway
[/quote]

i agree with most except for the NADC situation. I don't remember much bout it but if BLEU were weakened more during the UjW, they most likely would not have gone forward with war and would have used diplomacy to strengthen their position more against the UjP. Being seen as diplomatic against those weaker than them would be key as the ramped up propaganda against UjP would have continued.

As for tactics, i daresay we would have changed them to at least ensure WCs and given the all out nuke assaults by the UjP, we would have adopted tactics against that.

i would dare say that Cit/Continuum would have stayed allied with BLEU or at least sided with BLEU. Though Cit would be out Umbrella. a still existing UjP would have most likely seen the Orders stay close. meaning that should a UjP/BLEU war happen, if BLEU started to lose, Cit/Q most likely would have joined to help out BLEU though most likely waiting for BLEU to take significant damage.

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292462984' post='2540554']
LUE defended FARK from GOONS iirc and that caused GWIII. LUE claimed a treaty that no one knew about with FARK. i don't remember if they were still under terms or not but it does sound plausible. [/quote]
You mean GWII, not GWIII. GWII led to the events that Caliph stated about GWIII.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292462984' post='2540554']
LUE defended FARK from GOONS iirc and that caused GWIII. LUE claimed a treaty that no one knew about with FARK. i don't remember if they were still under terms or not but it does sound plausible.
[/quote] I remember that LUE was still under terms when they enterred GW3. I was not around for GW2 but I do remember from speaking with those who were there and reading about it that the premise was LUE was protecting FARK from GOONS based on a treaty between LUE and FARK that was not posted or made public until after GOONS was hitting FARK. LUE was still under terms which they broke to DOW Genmay in GW3.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292462984' post='2540554']
i agree with most except for the NADC situation. I don't remember much bout it but if BLEU were weakened more during the UjW, they most likely would not have gone forward with war and would have used diplomacy to strengthen their position more against the UjP. Being seen as diplomatic against those weaker than them would be key as the ramped up propaganda against UjP would have continued.

As for tactics, i daresay we would have changed them to at least ensure WCs and given the all out nuke assaults by the UjP, we would have adopted tactics against that.

i would dare say that Cit/Continuum would have stayed allied with BLEU or at least sided with BLEU. Though Cit would be out Umbrella. a still existing UjP would have most likely seen the Orders stay close. meaning that should a UjP/BLEU war happen, if BLEU started to lose, Cit/Q most likely would have joined to help out BLEU though most likely waiting for BLEU to take significant damage.
[/quote]
Hmm, ya this makes a bit more sense. The Orders might not have had the huge falling out, but then again with GOONS being dropped from their #2 position to out of the sanction race perhaps that would have satisfied NPO. It still remains that the orders had a lot of issues at that time, and I'm not sure if they would have kept it together. If the UjP had played it smart and not formed, but remained in the WUT and use the WUT to isolate NpO and used the Moldavi rebellion and Sponge's support and blackmail of Moo to try to usurp him, they might have split. Even after the Unjust War, tensions between them were high due to Polar wanting to be the bigger brother. It was no secret to us that Sponge was just as "bad" as us, and with us still around to remind people the PR war might have turned against Sponge. We might have convinced enough people, or perhaps Sponge would have eventualy said so if he ever would've quit Polar like he eventually did, that the UjW was orchastrated to destroy NPO allies, remove them, and place Polar in the big powerful position for NPO to be the little brother to.

I do think that if the Unjust Path were to have made a resurgence like I hypothesized that you would be correct; without agreements with Cit/Continuum, both would have had more in common with BLEU if BLEU had been unable to make the power moves. If BLEU didn't do the power moves, Citadel wouldn't have had as many reasons to roll them and perhaps wouldn't have. I forgot at the time NpO was in One Vision until they expelled NpO and brought in Echelon and MCXA from BLEU right before BLEU got rolled. If NpO was still in One Vision One Vision might get involved and chain in Continuum right off, so perhaps that hypothetical UjP BLEU war would not have been done with such treaties in place, or without Continuum alliances having plans to help the UjP in such a war.

Without plans, the BLEU/One Vision/Continuum/Citadel coalition would be able to dominate most any other coalition. Then again if the UjP had stuck around, perhaps they could've worked on the FA bit and gotten more allies around them to make Continuum have less of a bite, who knows.

And on your other point, I'm not sure BLEU would have made tactics against the UjP focusing their attacks just on BLEU nations. After all, FAN solely attacked NPO and NpO nations and I do not remember any significant changes until much later. NPO relied on foreign aid to keep afloat, and GOONS had as much or more nukes as FAN did when FAN went out. They could've launched em all at IRON when IRON enterred, and devastated them, Polar should have been a target as well, and other BLEU members. Perhaps more nations would have adopted warchests sooner, but I'm not sure if the alliances would have been able to make the necessary changes to doctrine. On the other hand, if they did it would have made the next war much more interesting.

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='General Scipio' timestamp='1292446878' post='2540333']
Superfriends joined the war because GOONS said Fark wouldn't have to keep paying reps if they joined, and they had an in with the ASC MDP. They didn't really have many other treaties to the other side.

Oh and Fark declared war first, so it was MHA and NATO that choose the other side.
[/quote]

My memory is sadly foggier than i remember. Thank you. :3

[Caliph]

[quote name='General Scipio' timestamp='1292446878' post='2540333']
Superfriends joined the war because GOONS said Fark wouldn't have to keep paying reps if they joined, and they had an in with the ASC MDP. They didn't really have many other treaties to the other side.

Oh and Fark declared war first, so it was MHA and NATO that choose the other side.
[/quote]
FARK was in Trident or something with MHA and NATO, and FARK went to the Unjust. NATO had treaties with the Unjust as well, but also with the ~ side, and chose to go with the ~ side. MHA ...I do not recall any specific ties they had with the Unjust, so it was fairly obvious where they were going.

I remember a lot of relationships publicly changed in that war. Treaties weren't used to declare neutrality, they were ignored if they were on a different side than the one you decided you were fighting on. I remember several alliances on both sides ignoring a treaty or two (sometimes more) on one side just to fight for the other.

The treaty web was so convuluted then that any war involving any of those alliances could chain in huge amounts of others. Some didn't even use treaties to come in, I remember Legion DOWing \m/ after \m/ had been hit by like 7 1 mill small alliances and was engaged with IRON, Polar, and tons of others citing the Dove War "extortion" as a reason. GATO entered via a PIAT and had to clarify that they were indeed enterring the war to satisfy TOP's neutrality.

[Illustrious]

Uhm I don't post a lot and I'm not a real good speaker but I have something to add.


When I look at the history of CN I see two story plots, the classic and over arcing Orders vs. CoaLUEtion/League with the legendary Great Wars culminating with Karma and finally evolving to the more modern yet subplot story of the Moralist (NpO) vs. The Unjust Path/Highway with flashpoints taking place during the Unjust War, NoCB War, and more recently the BiPolar War.

We all know that the League was defeated in GIII but its remnants would give BLEU the tools to defeat the Unjust Highway, however shortly after the war and during BLEU’s rouge streak, the former league began allying itself with the Hegemony, more specifically the Superfriends and former Unjust Highway side of the web, however some prove to be the exception (Legion etc. etc.) and allowed its self to be once again a tool to use this time in helping the “Neo Unjust Path” to exact its revenge on BLEU (NoCB War).

This was the turning point for the former League Sphere and thus instead of becoming its own sphere it join with the Unjust Path becoming, a termed I just made right now, the Unjust League, and thus the League was able to use its new found power to topple the Hegemony in Karma. Does that make sense? It’s a bit farfetched I know but it makes sense to me.

Anyways, with the defeat of the League in GWIII, the powers that were friends under the doctrine “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” now well became enemies, the Unjust Path was formed and Polaris under the leadership of ES, who resented being NPOs “puppet”, began to isolate the NPO with the Unjust War, however we again all know the story, the Unjust path suffered a blow so harsh that they never fully recovered till recently. But what I think is that soon after the war, the remnants joined with what would soon be known as the Coalition and with the major help of Q extracted their immediate vengeance on BLEU and more importantly Polaris.

However feeling betrayed with the Order during the first Unjust War, they too along with the League began to plot for the Orders eventual down fall with Karma, with Polar staying out of it mostly. And finally the new super coalition consisting of CnG, Superfriends, and BLEU Remnants mainly focused around Polar, sought to bring an era of peace and an end of stagnation.

But as we know peace didn’t hold out for long as the Hegemony Remnant fought to stay alive with the Order guiding it, and the new “SuperGrievances” or I guess I could use my term the “Unjust League” looking for an excuse to destroy what little remained of Q and the Initiative. However I guess what they weren’t expecting a surprise attack on SuperGrievances by none other than Polar and the Hegemony remnant, thus we have the BiPolar War, with CnG pulling out on top, finally after the course of four wars the Initiative and its remakes were soundly defeated by the League and its incarnations.

I think what we have now is another set up between the Moralist and the former Unjust Path, unable to fight their war during in BiPolar due to TOP & Co attacking CnG without clause.

But I hope that makes sense. I’m not a good writer and I know it’s a bit of a fantasy but it works, what can I say? And I know it has nothing to do with the OP but since everyone was talking about the League and the Unjust War I was hoping I could throw my two cents in.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Paxis

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292458910' post='2540492']
Right, what I meant was that if \m/ and Genmay had gotten terms perhaps GOONS would have as well. If they didn't disband and stuck it out with GOONS, all 3 could have eventually got peace.[/quote]

I was, by my estimate, probably another round of combat or so from ZI (indeed at least one of the Legion nations attacking me had nukes he still hadn't popped at the time the war ended for us). I was also far from alone. Sure, some people within \m/ were far less damaged, but we were decisively engaged, had no reserves left, and even before the Bilrow incident we were talking about at least trying to get people to Peace Mode hoping to regroup, thinking perhaps we could get enough people to safety we could put together something resembling another combat wave in a week. The night the whole Bilrow thing blew up on the OWF, our military commander and the guy who held the plans for organizing said withdrawal resigned and bolted to Atlantis, an alliance in the enemy camp--not exactly a morale booster. Then there was the Bilrow revelation itself--after alliance leaders within the Initiative had essentially given their word that the OOC medical condition was not to be publicly released, here was 404 dumping it. I'll speculate that perhaps he sensed that the UJP was outnumbered to the point that victory was impossible, game over, and it was his last FU to CN. I won't ascribe motivations to what he did further other than to say that it was [b]wrong[/b] to the point that it pretty much sucked the joy of the fight out of me, indeed my motivation at that point went from trying to win the war to trying to ensure \m/ would survive it somehow by inflicting maximum damage on NpO in order to force them to the bargaining table. So far as I recall the offensive fizzled--not enough people out of anarchy or able to get out of peace mode at that point to matter. We did rather quickly get to that bargaining table however, but there was no bargaining, only the dictating of terms that were impossible to accept or even bring back to membership for consideration.

But let's be honest, barring major blundering on the part of ~ that war was always going to end in ~ victory, and it was going to end decisively, with the major alliances in the UJP disbanded, mostly dismantled, or hurting. Sponge simply outplayed the UJP on the diplomatic front, a job made significantly easier by the actions of the UJP themselves. Least some of you forget, NPO was actually in reserve for the most part during that war and could have been called forth to attack GOONS, \m/, or anyone else if needed. Sufficient quantity beats quality--just ask the Soviets after World War II.

[Mergerberger II]

[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2][quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1292351238' post='2539578']Maybe I make more overtures to TOP and NpO, the only alliances that really supported us in WUT during the GCW.
[/quote]

Man, that is a weird group to think about now.[/size][/font]

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1292464091' post='2540567']
You mean GWII, not GWIII. GWII led to the events that Caliph stated about GWIII.
[/quote]

lawlz. i can't keep GWII and GWIII straight.

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292464482' post='2540569']
I remember that LUE was still under terms when they enterred GW3. I was not around for GW2 but I do remember from speaking with those who were there and reading about it that the premise was LUE was protecting FARK from GOONS based on a treaty between LUE and FARK that was not posted or made public until after GOONS was hitting FARK. LUE was still under terms which they broke to DOW Genmay in GW3.


Hmm, ya this makes a bit more sense. The Orders might not have had the huge falling out, but then again with GOONS being dropped from their #2 position to out of the sanction race perhaps that would have satisfied NPO. It still remains that the orders had a lot of issues at that time, and I'm not sure if they would have kept it together. If the UjP had played it smart and not formed, but remained in the WUT and use the WUT to isolate NpO and used the Moldavi rebellion and Sponge's support and blackmail of Moo to try to usurp him, they might have split. Even after the Unjust War, tensions between them were high due to Polar wanting to be the bigger brother. It was no secret to us that Sponge was just as "bad" as us, and with us still around to remind people the PR war might have turned against Sponge. We might have convinced enough people, or perhaps Sponge would have eventualy said so if he ever would've quit Polar like he eventually did, that the UjW was orchastrated to destroy NPO allies, remove them, and place Polar in the big powerful position for NPO to be the little brother to.

I do think that if the Unjust Path were to have made a resurgence like I hypothesized that you would be correct; without agreements with Cit/Continuum, both would have had more in common with BLEU if BLEU had been unable to make the power moves. If BLEU didn't do the power moves, Citadel wouldn't have had as many reasons to roll them and perhaps wouldn't have. I forgot at the time NpO was in One Vision until they expelled NpO and brought in Echelon and MCXA from BLEU right before BLEU got rolled. If NpO was still in One Vision One Vision might get involved and chain in Continuum right off, so perhaps that hypothetical UjP BLEU war would not have been done with such treaties in place, or without Continuum alliances having plans to help the UjP in such a war.

Without plans, the BLEU/One Vision/Continuum/Citadel coalition would be able to dominate most any other coalition. Then again if the UjP had stuck around, perhaps they could've worked on the FA bit and gotten more allies around them to make Continuum have less of a bite, who knows.

And on your other point, I'm not sure BLEU would have made tactics against the UjP focusing their attacks just on BLEU nations. After all, FAN solely attacked NPO and NpO nations and I do not remember any significant changes until much later. NPO relied on foreign aid to keep afloat, and GOONS had as much or more nukes as FAN did when FAN went out. They could've launched em all at IRON when IRON enterred, and devastated them, Polar should have been a target as well, and other BLEU members. Perhaps more nations would have adopted warchests sooner, but I'm not sure if the alliances would have been able to make the necessary changes to doctrine. On the other hand, if they did it would have made the next war much more interesting.
[/quote]

Sponge only left after he was couped and that was in order to try and prevent WotC. it was a quite a bit of time after the UjW. as for BLEU making the tactical change, not sure about anyone else but Polaris iirc started working on theirs. FAN really only concentrated on Pacifica and left Polaris largely alone with the nukes. IRON was never BLEU nor in 1V.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Paxis' timestamp='1292468359' post='2540615']
I think what we have now is another set up between the Moralist and the former Unjust Path, unable to fight their war during in BiPolar due to TOP & Co attacking CnG without clause.
[/quote]
We had a just cause! We were trying to spread democracy!