The Parable of the Angel and the Devil

[bzelger]

You want me to compile a list of GOONS posts for you? Open just about any thread longer than 3 pages and there will be great steaming piles of GOON posts for your enjoyment.

Making people who you attacked out of the blue amuse you in order to get peace and running them into the ground if they don't meet your requirements is griefing.

[Biazt]

[quote]You want me to compile a list of GOONS posts for you? Open just about any thread longer than 3 pages and there will be great steaming piles of GOON posts for your enjoyment.[/quote]
I don't think so.

As for the griefing claim: we're not [i]making[/i] anyone do our lighthearted mercy board terms. Considering some other tech raiding alliances wouldn't even give them terms I'd say we're being generous. Unless you'd prefer we gave them no recourse?

Edited October 2, 2010 by Biazt

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285994934' post='2471950']
I don't think so.

As for the griefing claim: we're not [i]making[/i] anyone do our lighthearted mercy board terms. Considering some other tech raiding alliances wouldn't even give them terms I'd say we're being generous. Unless you'd prefer we gave them no recourse?
[/quote]
No recourse would be better than wasting someones time with the mercy board, I don't think many new players would be motivated to continue playing after having to deal with all the BS you put nations through there.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285995113' post='2471952']
No recourse would be better than wasting someones time with the mercy board, I don't think many new players would be motivated to continue playing after having to deal with all the BS you put nations through there.
[/quote]
Trick question, the other option is no recourse by default.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285995282' post='2471957']
Trick question, the other option is no recourse by default.
[/quote]
Which is why many of your raid victims end up just quitting if they don't feel like signing up on your board and doing things for your amusement after getting attacked by you guys. The whole mercy board concept is a sadistic one that you guys do use to grief players and make yourselves feel superior for beating down on unaligned nations and micro alliances.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285995567' post='2471963']
Which is why many of your raid victims end up just quitting if they don't feel like signing up on your board and doing things for your amusement after getting attacked by you guys. The whole mercy board concept is a sadistic one that you guys do use to grief players and make yourselves feel superior for beating down on unaligned nations and micro alliances.
[/quote]
On the contrary, lots of players enjoy fulfilling the mercy board terms. It's only players that take themselves far too seriously (you) that get upset about it.

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285995567' post='2471963']
Which is why many of your raid victims end up just quitting if they don't feel like signing up on your board and doing things for your amusement after getting attacked by you guys. The whole mercy board concept is a sadistic one that you guys do use to grief players and make yourselves feel superior for beating down on unaligned nations and micro alliances.
[/quote]

Using that logic, does that mean that any alliance that raids is at fault for the loss of players? Let me parle that into another point, does that mean any war on a nation that does not wish to be at war could also lead to them leaving the game? How many nations have you forced from the game by attacking innocent GOON nations?

Edited October 2, 2010 by Muddog

[Prime minister Johns]

You do have a valid philosophical point.

For good to exist, evil must also exist so that the distinction is meaningful. Without evil, being good has no merit since it is the only way things can be done.

[Grumpdogg]

In the period where there was no GOONS, there was still politics and war. I know its shocking to think these forums would be active without 10000 GOONS topics, but its true. In fact it was more pragmatic and frankly, more interesting. So no we won't miss you, feel free to leave ASAP.

[nippy]

[quote name='Grumpdogg' timestamp='1286004040' post='2472059']
In the period where there was no GOONS, there was still politics and war. I know its shocking to think these forums would be active without 10000 GOONS topics, but its true. In fact it was more pragmatic and frankly, more interesting. So no we won't miss you, feel free to leave ASAP.
[/quote]

...but then who would you complain about?

[Schmoo]

"Tech Raid, PM for peace"

I get raided, send an IGM to said raider asking for peace, peace granted. I am a little annoyed but no grief.

"Tech Raid, You're going to have to jump through a bunch of hoops to stop the destruction of your nation you stoopid n00b! Oh ya, welcome to CN!"

I get raided, send an IGM to said raider asking for peace, get a link to some forum I have to register on to ask for peace, along with more ground attacks against me, I have to write an essay or make a picture, probably more ground attacks until I satisfy whomever moderates the mercy board. Mind you, I am a new nation that has no clue what is going on to begin with. GRIEF! The claim that people like coming to your mercy boards and begging for peace is complete !@#$%^&*.

The majority of raiding alliances catch no flak for it because they don't pull crap like GOONS do. People don't like you because you are jerks, not because they need something bad in order to be good. There was conflict without you, and there still would be if you were gone. There are plenty of ways to create conflict around here without being an !@#$%^&.

[gantanX]

[quote name='Schmoo' timestamp='1286014260' post='2472090']
"Tech Raid, PM for peace"

I get raided, send an IGM to said raider asking for peace, peace granted. I am a little annoyed but no grief.

"Tech Raid, You're going to have to jump through a bunch of hoops to stop the destruction of your nation you stoopid n00b! Oh ya, welcome to CN!"

I get raided, send an IGM to said raider asking for peace, get a link to some forum I have to register on to ask for peace, along with more ground attacks against me, I have to write an essay or make a picture, probably more ground attacks until I satisfy whomever moderates the mercy board. Mind you, I am a new nation that has no clue what is going on to begin with. GRIEF! The claim that people like coming to your mercy boards and begging for peace is complete !@#$%^&*.

The majority of raiding alliances catch no flak for it because they don't pull crap like GOONS do. People don't like you because you are jerks, not because they need something bad in order to be good. There was conflict without you, and there still would be if you were gone. There are plenty of ways to create conflict around here without being an !@#$%^&.
[/quote]

COuldn't agree more with this..
There's nothing to be proud of tech raiding...

[Alterego]

Most alliances tech raid. Most alliances raid then offer peace or tell them peace is available. These alliances dont get crap for raiding. If raiding was all you wanted that is how you would raid. You want to raid someone then make them grovel for freedom this is why people have a problem with you. This is how old GOONS operated too and before you complain that Im a moralist I dont care how you raid but others do and this kind of ritual humiliation/extortion of a raided nation or defeated enemy went a long way to seeing old GOONS run out during an angry uprising. You play a victim but you are not one. (re: your the world needs us comment) The world doesnt need you and managed just fine between GOON alliances. GOONS however need the world.

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' timestamp='1286002477' post='2472043']
You do have a valid philosophical point.

For good to exist, evil must also exist so that the distinction is meaningful. Without evil, being good has no merit since it is the only way things can be done.
[/quote]
Without evil the good still have a sliding scale with pure at one end and just good at the other. Just good would be the new evil.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Alterego

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285974044' post='2471560']

something something something
[/quote]

What? Sorry, there's just something about your avatar that just... keeps... distracting me from...

[Comrade Craig]

Well, I'll agree with everyone who claims the remarks by the OP are self-serving... If you are indeed the villains, then you'll need to hold back a few of your members who still want to justify their actions in non-villainous language. It dilutes your overall message.

I'm also concerned with the level of anti-communist raids that have been performed. Lammy/Biazt/whoever might be very capable of separating in-character from out-of-character, but I suspect that in most cases, those types of raids are executed by individuals with no such dichotomy. Given the history of Planet Bob, us commies get very uncomfortable when alliances start commie-bashing.

With that said, I do appreciate the fact that the GOONS have been able to slap some of my fellow commies out of their anti-Nordriech/anti-fascist/anti-"right" mentality (that is [i]so[/i] 2007!) and given them a new ideological enemy that is actually relevant to our current political realities.

Overall, I love the GOONS. I love most of the attitude. I love the fact that you refuse to take yourselves seriously. These are all components of my real-life personality. Just stop pissing so close to the commie backyard, please.

-Craig

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285994934' post='2471950']
I don't think so.

As for the griefing claim: we're not [i]making[/i] anyone do our lighthearted mercy board terms. Considering some other tech raiding alliances wouldn't even give them terms I'd say we're being generous. Unless you'd prefer we gave them no recourse?
[/quote]


See, I was with you until this point. Because, quite frankly, this point is simply not true. I cannot think of ANY alliance that would pursue a raider who fights back, beyond the week of war that the initial raid started. If you know of any alliances who give raiders who fight back no recourse.. share them with me please, because, as Athens is, and is connected to, most of the vehement raiding alliances on this planet, I dont think I would have missed such an alliance.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285995994' post='2471966']
On the contrary, lots of players enjoy fulfilling the mercy board terms. It's only players that take themselves far too seriously (you) that get upset about it.
[/quote]

While, admittedly, im very unfamiliar with your mercy board, I will say that this generalization is quite simply not based in fact. As I read it, you discount the entire group of people on this game who roll their nations just to build and see what happens. They are not interested in alliance politics or forums. It is this group(and they do exist, no matter how much you try to pretend like they dont) that is likely to be driven away by your mercy board. From this pool of people, you never know who may one day become interested and contribute to the game politically. At the very minimum, you must admit to the possibility of these people, and not judge them based on how you think they should play the game.

[Kzoppistan]

On second thought, I will grace this thread with a thought out response.

Anyone who knows me knows that, while I find the term moralist distasteful (since I'm more pragmatic than ethical), I [i]am[/i] outspoken about bullying and obnoxious disrespectful behavior. I like rooting for the underdog and enjoy fair justice being dealt out, especially against those who have previously used their advantage to harm others without cause. I actively plot against those I perceive as having those traits.

But if you look around, you'll notice that I've been uncharacteristically quiet about GOONS. Why? Inquiring minds want to know:

1. You don't make good "bad guys" because you're not a threat to anyone. Except unaligneds and maybe the clueless micro. Sure you've got the in-game stats, but that doesn't really mean much if you only use them in the way you have. *Edit: MK is a threat. NPO is a threat. Alliances like these think and use strategy to gain an upperhand in world affairs. GOONS just seem like a pack of simpleminded animals.

2.[b] I don't even think of you as an alliance.[/b] You're all just a bunch of ass-hats from an offsite forum whose entire purpose is to go around to other games and crap in them for your own amusement. Who knows what other games you all dog pile into and try to ruin the other player's enjoyment. CN is just another place you get your rocks off at.

3. I doubt you had any other strategy except to pony up to the most powerful alliance that will endorse your shenanigans. It seems very unlikely that you strive for anything other from this game than getting laughs out of the frustration of noobs and those that try to take it seriously.

So in short, you're just a RL nuisance that threatens to break the spell of illusion that makes games like political simulators enjoyable. The only cure is to ignore you and not take any bait disguised as debate.

This time around you've gotten smart enough to at least walk the line of in-game mores to keep from getting rolled right out of the gate. Kudos for that, but your only advantage is numerical.

So whether you rise or implode, I don't really care. You're just like the dog crap I try not to step in but know it is always underfoot.

Now that my opinion is expressed, good day, top 'o the mornin' to ya.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286013065' post='2472086']
...but then who would you complain about?
[/quote]

anyone really. MK, Athens, NPO, TPF, IRON, RoK, there are many other far more worthy alliances out there whose actions are actually important. the only reason GOONS gets as much attention as it does is you guys are loud. you are like that annoying little chihuahua that yips loudly at all times of the night wanting attention. if we stop talking about you, a thread like this pops up to remind us that GOONS are in fact still here, and in fact will still be here an hour from now.

[nippy]

[quote name='Schmoo' timestamp='1286014260' post='2472090']
I get raided, send an IGM to said raider asking for peace, get a link to some forum I have to register on to ask for peace, along with more ground attacks against me, I have to write an essay or make a picture, probably more ground attacks until I satisfy whomever moderates the mercy board. Mind you, I am a new nation that has no clue what is going on to begin with. GRIEF! The claim that people like coming to your mercy boards and begging for peace is complete !@#$%^&*.

The majority of raiding alliances catch no flak for it because they don't pull crap like GOONS do. People don't like you because you are jerks, not because they need something bad in order to be good. There was conflict without you, and there still would be if you were gone. There are plenty of ways to create conflict around here without being an !@#$%^&.
[/quote]

We've had more people have fun with the mercy board than not. They indulge in some creativity and are rewarded for it, not to mention they usually end up closer to our hearts.


[quote name='gantanX' timestamp='1286020427' post='2472115']
COuldn't agree more with this..
There's nothing to be proud of tech raiding...
[/quote]

NEW is awesome. You're awesome.

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1286031386' post='2472183']
What? Sorry, there's just something about your avatar that just... keeps... distracting me from...
[/quote]

His avatar is completely intentional. This is why your hatey post surprised me. You know you love me, and I know damn well you're not as big a hater as you're trying to portray.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1286034161' post='2472216']
See, I was with you until this point. Because, quite frankly, this point is simply not true. I cannot think of ANY alliance that would pursue a raider who fights back, beyond the week of war that the initial raid started. If you know of any alliances who give raiders who fight back no recourse.. share them with me please, because, as Athens is, and is connected to, most of the vehement raiding alliances on this planet, I dont think I would have missed such an alliance.
[/quote]

Raiders that fight back. I'll assume you're making some interesting mistake in your post, but you're Rush Sykes. You shouldn't make mistakes.


[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1286035763' post='2472242']
anyone really. MK, Athens, NPO, TPF, IRON, RoK, there are many other far more worthy alliances out there whose actions are actually important. the only reason GOONS gets as much attention as it does is you guys are loud. you are like that annoying little chihuahua that yips loudly at all times of the night wanting attention. if we stop talking about you, a thread like this pops up to remind us that GOONS are in fact still here, and in fact will still be here an hour from now.
[/quote]

We're not at loud as you make us out to be. Yeah, we defend ourselves in the forums, but you wouldn't see us as often if people would learn to stop !@#$%*ing about our actions. Also, I already made a chihuahua analogy within the past two days, so learn some damn originality, son.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286036773' post='2472256']
His avatar is completely intentional. This is why your hatey post surprised me. You know you love me, and I know damn well you're not as big a hater as you're trying to portray.
[/quote]
Damn it, nippy, you're like a mom. Every time I try to hangout with the cool kids, you come driving up in your mini-van honking the horn. Sheesh.

For the record, Biazts avatar didn't distract me this time. I'm focused mentally and channeling my unending hate and. I'm looking at it right now and I'm perfectly fine. I really am mad at you guys because... that... uh...

[nippy]

You downplay our research in hypnotism.

[D34th]

A fail attempt to justify GOONS actions, that's all.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1286035058' post='2472234']
1. You don't make good "bad guys" because you're not a threat to anyone.
[/quote]
We have great diplomatic and political strength, beyond our NS. Discount us as barbarians at your own peril.

[Heyman]

People will do everything in their power to destroy you, GOONS.
And when you are laid to ruin, they will realize that they miss the pure antagonism that you provided.

But because you are so far into your world, there will be no compromises. There won't be many in-between, and those who are will do nothing but get caught in the crossfire.

Do what you keep doing, but don't expect anybody to be your moderators so much as your supporters or detractors.