The Parable of the Angel and the Devil

[Biazt]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1286034161' post='2472216']
See, I was with you until this point. Because, quite frankly, this point is simply not true. I cannot think of ANY alliance that would pursue a raider who fights back, beyond the week of war that the initial raid started. If you know of any alliances who give raiders who fight back no recourse.. share them with me please, because, as Athens is, and is connected to, most of the vehement raiding alliances on this planet, I dont think I would have missed such an alliance.
[/quote]
We don't pursue raid targets that fight back. If they continue to stay on NONE our members can raid them again if they choose, but that isn't anything personal. For example, I recently raided this nation: http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=374495 who responded to my GAs with bombing runs, cruise missles etc. I responded accordingly but held back on nuking him throughout the duration of the war. He's still in NONE yet not involved in any wars right now. If your assertion that we pursue raid targets that fight back was true he'd still be at war.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Biazt

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1286041314' post='2472324']
We have great diplomatic and political strength, beyond our NS. Discount us as barbarians at your own peril.
[/quote]

Pfft, as if setting up your diplomatic front was any great feat. With your major treaty partners, it was already a shoe-in. Birds of a feather and all that. You started off on the tit of NpO/NPO at the beginning of Karma and then promptly began treatying to the winning side's most prominent aggressors. A side better fit for your type of humor, I'll add.

What ever happened to the NpO treaty, anyway?

I won't be impressed until your alliance does anything besides squander your time on petty amusements. I don't consider you a threat to me or any of my allies simply because I doubt you can look up from the floor long enough to gaze at the horizon.

Anyway, despite that you and your ilk are almost diametrically opposed to what I hold true, I don't particularly feel the need to go around every thread trying to piss on your alliance's name, unlike some. You've survived and prospered, and for that I give a grudging nod of respect, but for the most part, I wouldn't care less if a comet came down and wiped every single one of you off the face of Bob.

Just keep doing what you're doing and I'll stand over here where the air's better.

[Chief Savage Man]

Tech raiding for life.

[Emphix]

I agree for the concept of good to exist, people need to know and experience something to be called "bad" first.

However, if the "bad guy" suddenly saying they are doing bad things so the "good guy" can exist or have something to do, now that's just plain joke. Self justification at its worst (and funniest).

[Biazt]

[quote name='Emphix' timestamp='1286050347' post='2472423']
I agree for the concept of good to exist, people need to know and experience something to be called "bad" first.

However, if the "bad guy" suddenly saying they are doing bad things so the "good guy" can exist or have something to do, now that's just plain joke. Self justification at its worst (and funniest).
[/quote]
I hope you realize this is an OOC forum.

[Emphix]

huh? I know. I am just talking in general.

[maxnmike]

It's not about the fact that you raid, it's about the piss poor ways you go about it. But I'm sure you already know that.

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285988408' post='2471847']
I didn't know that tech raiders had such an inflated sense of self importance.
[/quote]
If you think that's inflated, you should take a look at the "good guys" for once.

[jerdge]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285974044' post='2471560']<SNIP>

They will show no mercy... unless you do a picture of a cat in [b]MSPaint[/b] for them.

<SNIP>[/quote]
Forcing people to use MS crap is in my eyes reason enough to drive you away from Planet Avril. [i]Permanently[/i].

[spoiler][/kidding]

I think there's a line between "healthy jokes" and "bullying" but for now I've been too lazy and occupied to check if you GOONS (or anybody else for that matter) are really crossing it.
Various things considered I'll just assume that you're more or less in the clean side of things. Most of your opponents are also probably RolePlaying the angel, thus everything is mostly OK and you're just collectively wasting a lot of forum space with your senseless back and forth on how you're or you're not "really" evil.

[/highhorsing]

Just have fun and play the game, okay?[/spoiler]

Edited October 4, 2010 by jerdge

[shahenshah]

What if a target that was attacked fights back as is its right for being declared on and attacked out of the blue?

Edited October 4, 2010 by shahenshah

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1286191127' post='2474120']
What if a target that was attacked fights back as is its right for being declared on and attacked out of the blue?
[/quote]
Friends jump in and the nukes start dropping.

[shahenshah]

and what happens if nation happened to be carrying an AA and the others in the AA happen to go out and defend them against GOONS aggression?

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1286193832' post='2474140']
and what happens if nation happened to be carrying an AA and the others in the AA happen to go out and defend them against GOONS aggression?
[/quote]
Friends jump in and the nukes start dropping.

To speed it up, I will not repeat this 9 times.

[Biazt]

Unlikely considering almost all tech raids occur at NS levels where nukes are not found.

[Captain Enema]

I've gotten to like these goons a bit more than I used to, and I have to ask, calling yourselves evil is a bit of a comedy routine? Tech raiding isn't evil. Stalking people across various nations is evil. Stalking them in real life over a browser game (and any other lame reason) is evil, extorting money or whatnot over this game is evil, but tech raiding, that's not evil.

I think yall goons talk to much on the OWF sometimes, but that isn't evil either. You guys just like to dicker and argue alot.

Not sure where this whole evil thing comes from.

Though, a claim can be made for inflicting Methrage on us over and over again is Evil. Please, just surrender to him now so he'll shut up.

[The Crimson King]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285974044' post='2471560']


Everyone in this game likes to hate on the raiding alliances. We're the bad guys, we're driving people from the game, supposedly, we're cowards, hypocrites, thugs, hooligans. No sin is too great to be put on our shoulders. No action we do can be pure of motive. We can be lied to, tricked, and destroyed, and it's justified because We're The Bad Guys.


[/quote]


As others have pointed out, this statement is simply wrong. Furthermore, being that this is the central thesis from which the remaining arguments in your post are derived, it also makes the everything else after it invalid as well.

There are numerous alliances in this game who raid consistently, or have charters that condone raiding, whose actions are never called to task on these forums. You would be hard pressed to find anyone beyond the small minority of absolute hard core moralists in this game who equate an alliance having a raiding clause to said alliance being "evil". I am sure you are not blind to the fact that the hatred shown towards Goons has very little to do with the business of tech raiding itself, but rather the way in which you personally handle the raids (refusing to grant peace until they comply with mercy board terms, raiding what the community feels are established alliance, color sphere mass raids to prove political points etc). The fact that you attempted in one swift stroke, to paint the raiding activity of numerous alliances as on par with the actions of your AA by calling all raiding alliances "evil" is not only laughable, but also quite insulting to those other AA's who handle their raids in a non-abrasive manner.

The simple fact is most people do not even consider the majority of the actions taken by goons as "evil". There have been a lot of AA's both past and present who have played the proverbial bad guy with far greater success than anything you are doing. If we must search for proper adjectives to describe the actions of your AA that many rally against than words like childish and immature would be far more accurate then evil. Since your OP seems to be trying to work around the juxtaposition of terms, creating a central thesis using those adjectives (and their polar opposites) would produce an argument that would come much closer to the heart of the matter than anything supplied in the OP.



Edit: punctuation

Edited October 4, 2010 by The Crimson King

[Augustus Autumn]

The 'verse certainly needs a "bad guy". Whether it's the GOONS in particular, I'm not so sure.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286036773' post='2472256']
We've had more people have fun with the mercy board than not.[/quote]
In fairness this could be argued as a result of those who would not enjoy simply not visiting preferring isntead to either delete, fight it out, or join an alliance.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Hyperbad

[nippy]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1286243312' post='2474953']
In fairness this could be argued as a result of those who would not enjoy simply not visiting preferring isntead to either delete, fight it out, or join an alliance.
[/quote]

Ah, so by that rationale, there are more people that hate McDonald's hamburgers in this world than people that like them, simply because they haven't had a McDonald's hamburger. Damn, that's harsh.

[DragonsPhyre]

When you feel like you need to start saying that "OMG, THIS GAME NEEDS A BAD GUY AND WE FILL THE ROLE", I have to start wondering whether you actually make a good bad guy.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286253912' post='2475553']
Ah, so by that rationale, there are more people that hate McDonald's hamburgers in this world than people that like them, simply because they haven't had a McDonald's hamburger. Damn, that's harsh.
[/quote]
No, by my rationale you have insufficient information by which to make any assertion what the case actually is for how many find the mercy board fun when you only include those who take part in it and not those who haven't yet were either directed there or didn't care to seek peace, for one reason or another. "Could be argued" does not mean is being argued in such a manner. Rather it's typically used to point out another perspective where your statement might be seen as questionable.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1286256956' post='2475640']
No, by my rationale you have insufficient information by which to make any assertion what the case actually is for how many find the mercy board fun when you only include those who take part in it and not those who haven't yet were either directed there or didn't care to seek peace, for one reason or another. "Could be argued" does not mean is being argued in such a manner. Rather it's typically used to point out another perspective where your statement might be seen as questionable.
[/quote]
Then I suppose you'd be satisfied with the statement "Of those raided nations that have utilized the Mercy Board, the majority have been observed to have enjoyed the process"?

I think the point is that, while we understand that the concept of such a board could be displeasing or off-putting to those who are not familiar with it, in the end it isn't a particularly painful process for those who let go of their reservations and embrace the experience.

Edited October 5, 2010 by ktarthan

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1286259112' post='2475668']
Then I suppose you'd be satisfied with the statement "Of those raided nations that have utilized the Mercy Board, the majority have been observed to have enjoyed the process"?[/quote]
Yup.

[quote]I think the point is that, while we understand that the concept of such a board could be displeasing or off-putting to those who are not familiar with it, in the end it isn't a particularly painful process for those who let go of their reservations and embrace the experience.[/quote]
I can really see both sides here and really; I don't have a strong opinion either way. The strongest cases I see against it is how it's not befitting of a person with the stature of nation leader to require it of other nations to draw silly cartoons or write silly essays and then that some people just might not be as creative as your alliance desires thus might feel put off simply because of that. The claim of humiliation I'm not entirely certain how far that can go because I never visit your boards but I suppose some might feel that way. On its own I suppose it isn't much to ask from others. Shoot, in an alliance war if I led any and we won I could see myself (and in the past have actually) wishing to demand the loser to, disregarding OpSec, write a five to ten page essay, double spaced with 10-12 size font explaining what caused the war and what they'll do to ensure mistakes made are not repeated, among other things. Some might feel it to be humiliating even though I'd find that in place of reparations or other things to be the most likely to garner a positive response from the loser where a reflection is truly had.

It's all a matter of perspective based upon ones experiences, perspective/philosophy and general expectations. Do I think the mercy board and even raiding itself might have an impact of some kind on new player retention? Yes. Do I think it's the determining factor in most cases? No. I remember first joining the game back in 2006 and feeling disappointed, or should I say disillusioned, because its description felt misleading. I imagine a lot who join on their own accord at least are looking for "...an Internet game designed to simulate nation building and management and will require you to exercise your management skills on a day to day basis."

[nippy]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1286256956' post='2475640']
insufficient information[/quote]

Precisely what you have in determining the success rate of our mercy board, as you pointed out that there are other routes to take. tsk.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1286268718' post='2475754']
Precisely what you have in determining the success rate of our mercy board, as you pointed out that there are other routes to take. tsk.
[/quote]
Seeing as how I made no claims either way on the mercy board's impact on new player retention and only stated it's a possibility there might be one and your only quoting me I have no idea who you're arguing with. You may wish to clarify this in the hopes of your desired opponent will respond to you.