GOON spy orders

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1285226044' post='2461973']
I will never understand why people say tech raiding is "no apparent reason". The reason is to raid for tech. You may not agree with the reason, but there is a reason, and it is really quite apparent.

Secondly, where do we [i]brandish[/i] our "cowardice" as a valuable trait? I don't care if you think that smart and efficient raiding is cowardly, because while I disagree, you're entitled to that opinion. But... where do we brag about it? Yeah, sure, our raiding gets talked about a lot, but that's because it ruffles a lot of peoples' feathers. For the record, we have far more valuable traits than raiding a lot.
[/quote]

Tech raiding is attacking a nation that has done nothing to be attacked. Thus, there would be no CB for the war. Members of GOONS have often spoken of how much they like to ruffle other people's feather's, as you have said, and that this is what incites them to continue it. It is as if the act of attacking smaller nations and then asking "do something about it" is something to be proud of.

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1285226224' post='2461974']
Funny that you call GOONS cowards for attacking smaller nations and making a big fuss about it. And then do nothing to stop them. I think you are the coward here. At least Methrage is man enough to fight back can't say the same of you and all those other whiners.
[/quote]

Well, how can I stop them? Attack them myself? That wouldn't stop them from raiding.

[JT Jag]

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1285224173' post='2461949']
cowardice
[/quote]You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[magicmountain]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1285226915' post='2461976']
Thing is that GOONS have pride themselves of ignoring, violating and mocking any sense of morality (sorry, the sovereign right to abuse others is not morality). It's difficult for many of us to feel sorry when this occur to them and these "rogues" are seen as heroes by many members of this community.
[/quote]

Yes, people that disagree with our moral position do tend to knee-jerk react and blame us without looking at the facts first, we are very familiar with this phenomenon. Thanks for noticing though

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='magicmountain' timestamp='1285227200' post='2461982']Yes, people that disagree with our moral position do tend to knee-jerk react and blame us without looking at the facts first, we are very familiar with this phenomenon. Thanks for noticing though [/quote]Just be consistent and don't use moralistic arguments against these "rogues" when they attack you.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1285228099' post='2461986']
Just be consistent and don't use moralistic arguments against these "rogues" when they attack you.
[/quote]
He aided someone we were at war with, then declared on us. What's to discuss? No quotation marks necessary.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285228553' post='2461991']He aided someone we were at war with, then declared on us. What's to discuss? No quotation marks necessary.[/quote]Check the dictionary.
Everybody with a moral compass and an idea what GOONS are finds it difficult to call anyone who fights you a rogue without using quotation marks.

[JT Jag]

Why all the hate, Brother Golan? We strive for peace and harmony on Digiterra same as you do. Our methods might be a little different, but can't we set that aside and work together, all of us, for a brighter future?

[JT Jag]

Peace and love, brothers and sisters. Peace and love.

[Bavaricar]

Well, I've learned one thing from this topic. The goons are pretty much holy roller [b]moralists[/b] when it comes to the discussion of "rogues."

When there is no common agreement on what numerically constitutes an alliance, be we Jims, Umars or even Janovas, we are all rogues.

[nutkase]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1285229554' post='2461999']
Why all the hate, Brother Golan? We strive for peace and harmony on Digiterra same as you do. Our methods might be a little different, but can't we set that aside and work together, all of us, for a brighter future?
[/quote]

Best reply I have seen in a while, gave me a good chuckle.

[Mandolus]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1285221301' post='2461910']
I'm sorry, but if your really going to go and beat that dead horse this isn't the place to do so
[/quote]

Are you [i]kidding me[/i]? I can't possibly think of a better place to beat a dead horse than a GOONS thread!

[magicmountain]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1285228099' post='2461986']
Just be consistent and don't use moralistic arguments against these "rogues" when they attack you.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Could you please explain how "This one guy attacked us, then this other guy sent the first guy money, therefore the second guy is also our enemy" a moralistic argument? Please use small words, I'm a little slow.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1285229554' post='2461999']Why all the hate, Brother Golan? We strive for peace and harmony on Digiterra same as you do. Our methods might be a little different, but can't we set that aside and work together, all of us, for a brighter future? [/quote]This has nothing to do with hate at an individual level. I used to have friends in GOONS. I guess that many of you are really cool guys, but collectively, you are... well, let's say that you are not for the taste of many of us.
It's not only that you piss on morality. You make it a flag (at least in the sense that your members push themselves to the front line of every argument involving morality on the "evil" side).
You are probably the most extreme in your "might makes right" approach, which so many of us detest and became a symbol of it.
And what's most frustrating is that you do all this the second time, after we thought that we finally got rid of you.
I am one of a few fools who thought, several times, that you were not really that bad, that you would change, that it was all just big joke. But it's not. You are really bullies, and it's not going to change. To your defence, you have always been very honest about it. But it's our right to dislike it.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Golan 1st

[magicmountain]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1285233434' post='2462017']You are really bullies, and it's not going to change. To your defence, you have always been very honest about it. But it's our right to dislike it.
[/quote]

You were just chiding us to be consistent, yet you agree we're very honest and you want to change the definition of rogue depending on how you feel about the alliance being attacked?

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='magicmountain' timestamp='1285234328' post='2462023']You were just chiding us to be consistent, yet you agree we're very honest and you want to change the definition of rogue depending on how you feel about the alliance being attacked? [/quote]I have already said that I see no point in arguing about this definition.
But you are using this this definition as used in this world (which, again, is technical in nature) which has nothing to do with moral, and try to make it look morally wrong. This is where you are inconsistent, because you normally don't give a crap about moral.

[magicmountain]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1285235278' post='2462028']
I have already said that I see no point in arguing about this definition.
But you are using this this definition as used in this world (which, again, is technical in nature) which has nothing to do with moral, and try to make it look morally wrong. This is where you are inconsistent, because you normally don't give a crap about moral.
[/quote]

Oh, is that what you meant. Well, I feel that a rogue is a rogue, there's nothing moral or immoral about it, so I guess we agree there. If you don't think there's anything wrong with someone sending money to someone who is attacking us, I'd have to disagree with you there.

Edited September 23, 2010 by magicmountain

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Bavaricar' timestamp='1285231136' post='2462001']
Well, I've learned one thing from this topic. The goons are pretty much holy roller [b]moralists[/b] when it comes to the discussion of "rogues."

When there is no common agreement on what numerically constitutes an alliance, be we Jims, Umars or even Janovas, we are all rogues.
[/quote]

I think without question the current world paradigm means that unless you are in an alliance that has a protectorate agreement, standard treaties of MDP or higher, "paperless" treaties of mutual defense/aggression (e.g. FAN), or at least some sort of universally recognized declaration of neutrality (e.g. GPA), you're living on borrowed time. Even a 50 nation alliance with no treaties at this point is going to get nibbled at--or worse. Don't like being attacked by alliances like GOONS? Go get some treaties. It is quite literally the difference between getting laughed at when you object to one of your nations gets hit and getting reparations and an apology.

More specifically to your point, when you are a single nation standing up to a whole alliance, the last thing you want to do is to appear to be the aggressor. It is an instant ticket to rogueville, no matter how much verbal provocation has been heaped on you or how much "probing" you're getting from spy attacks. All people are going to see is that you declared war.

Think back to the TENE-Rok-NSO incident. Much was made of NSO taking in a rogue and aiding him with $6 mill. What was also true is that there was a whole series actions that took place that made it clear that the guy wasn't really a rogue in the initial stages--he was a guy that left TENE suddenly over a money dispute. TENE aggressively pursued him through a variety of means. But rather than do the smart thing, which was to dive into Peace Mode and find an alliance that would take him in and explain the money issue honestly, he allowed the provocations to push him into declaring war. From that point forward so far as much of the world was concerned, he was a rogue.

Now you have this occasion. Evidence now is that Jim aided Methrage secretly. When called on it, the smart move was to pay GOONS, even if you have to hold your nose to do it. Learn learned--it's not GOONS you're fighting, it's GOONS+MK+Umbrella+well you get the idea. Instead, well...read it for yourself. Jim declares on a member of GOONS and the rest is academic.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='magicmountain' timestamp='1285235340' post='2462030']
Oh, is that what you meant. Well, I feel that a rogue is a rogue, there's nothing moral or immoral about it, so I guess we agree there. If you don't think there's anything wrong with someone sending money to someone who is attacking us, I'd have to disagree with you there.[/quote]The term implies a negative moral judgment. This is what it was originally used for here (and not only here) and this is why I dislike the very wide definition which is now accepted by this community for this term. It abuses the term and blurs good and bad.
Anyway, this discussion does not really belongs here and if anyone wants to discuss this, let's do this elsewhere.

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1285226915' post='2461976']
Then I have take my words back, including about the retroactive justification for spying on him. The latter was not very well thought of by me.
I will not get here into a pointless argument about the meaning of the word "rogue" and agree that the commonly accepted definition here applies to him. I will just point out that it is technical in nature (i.e. an individual nation attacking an alliance) and does not say anything about the moral nature of these actions.

Thing is that GOONS have pride themselves of ignoring, violating and mocking any sense of morality (sorry, the sovereign right to abuse others is not morality). It's difficult for many of us to feel sorry when this occur to them and these "rogues" are seen as heroes by many members of this community (the last part does not necessarily refer to Methrage).
[/quote]

Your disasterous leadership of the ODN before and during the 3rd Great War makes anything out of your mouth regarding the Goons an absolute farce. My nation was ZIed due to your lack of decisive leadership in forming a proper military. Looking at these posts now make me slightly ill to my stomach thinking about what a sorry leader you were back then and how you got your entire alliance shot to hamburger fighting the first lot of Goons.

Seriously, put a cork in it.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1285242169' post='2462067']
I think without question the current world paradigm means that unless you are in an alliance that has a protectorate agreement, standard treaties of MDP or higher, "paperless" treaties of mutual defense/aggression (e.g. FAN), or at least some sort of universally recognized declaration of neutrality (e.g. GPA), you're living on borrowed time.
[/quote]

Quite frankly, FAN could have no allies and nobody would want to tangle with them, in my opinion.

[Udelar Johnson]

[quote name='Golan 1st' timestamp='1285233434' post='2462017']
This has nothing to do with hate at an individual level. I used to have friends in GOONS. I guess that many of you are really cool guys, but collectively, you are... well, let's say that you are not for the taste of many of us.
It's not only that you piss on morality. You make it a flag (at least in the sense that your members push themselves to the front line of every argument involving morality on the "evil" side).
You are probably the most extreme in your "might makes right" approach, which so many of us detest and became a symbol of it.
And what's most frustrating is that you do all this the second time, after we thought that we finally got rid of you.
I am one of a few fools who thought, several times, that you were not really that bad, that you would change, that it was all just big joke. But it's not. You are really bullies, and it's not going to change. To your defence, you have always been very honest about it. But it's our right to dislike it.
[/quote]
If what we do is so horrible and reprehensible, and so much worse than anything anyone in the world has ever seen before, then why are we not getting pounded into dust [i][u]right now[/u][/i]? I submit that the reason is because talk is cheap.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Udelar Johnson

[Sardonic]

I'm loving the line of argument that essentially boils down to "I don't like GOONS, therefore any attack against them is just". It's so laughably indefensible from a 'legal' point of view. Really if nothing else the responses in this thread show how far certain people will go to slander our good name. Why else would anyone argue with us in a topic where we are inarguably in the right?

[eejack]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1285243488' post='2462078']
Why else would anyone argue with us in a topic where we are inarguably in the right?
[/quote]

I believe they are arguing with GOONS since they believe GOONS is not in the right. Honestly, it just seems like GOONS being GOONS. Folks forget that GOONS purposefully go for that whole spyglass ant burning 12 year old having a hissy fit schtick and want GOONS to act civil. In the civil world, what GOONS is doing is not right, in the GOONS world this is great fun.

[Shakira]

none like that

Edited October 3, 2010 by C Mos

[flak attack]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1285219907' post='2461895']
Second, your all idiots.
[/quote]
Pot, meet kettle.

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1285223363' post='2461942']
No, your wrong.
[/quote]
Are you sure you're not an IRON member?