Foreign Affairs Dispatch from the New Pacific Order

[Bob Janova]

There's some pretty funny stuff in this thread, hopefully everyone can take it in the right spirit.

As for the cancellation itself, this treaty always struck me as something of a political one, a symbol of how the old feud was over, and not really a treaty solidly backed by friendship. Now that that symbol is not really necessary any more and GATO have taken themselves out of the Orders' sphere by dropping NSO, I guess it makes sense. Unless I'm missing it no-one's come out and stated what the reason is but I think we can all see it has to do with strategic positioning.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1282159041' post='2421860']
MK does it better.
[/quote]

Then go whine them about it.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1282085624' post='2420497']
You know you're the assigned Ambassador from the Viridian Entente to the New Pacific Order?
[/quote]

This must be a pattern. During the Bi-Polar war, Ve's ambassador randomly showed up in his embassy with us and started talking about how thrilled he was to be rolling IRON, when we were in the war to defend IRON

[magicninja]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1282161258' post='2421893']
There's some pretty funny stuff in this thread, hopefully everyone can take it in the right spirit.

As for the cancellation itself, this treaty always struck me as something of a political one, a symbol of how the old feud was over, and not really a treaty solidly backed by friendship. Now that that symbol is not really necessary any more and GATO have taken themselves out of the Orders' sphere by dropping NSO, I guess it makes sense. Unless I'm missing it no-one's come out and stated what the reason is but I think we can all see it has to do with strategic positioning.
[/quote]

Well the reasoning is rather clear to anyone. NPO didn't like us canceling on NSO cutting our one tie to their side of the web. When Cortath came to ask about the cancellation it wasn't so much of a "Why did you cancel on NSO" as it was a "How dare you cancel on NSO". People in GATO got defensive after that post and I can't say I blame them. Cortath's attitude showed his mind was made up and he wanted to throw in some parting shots under the guise of diplomacy to say he "tried" to save the treaty. I don't mind. I like it when people show their true colors and this treaty is better off gone.

[Branimir]

When GATO clumsily dropped NSO, there was a thread by a member on our boards asking to drop the PIAT. Cortath stepped in and said how there will be no rash decisions made like that and that we shall trough dialog with GATO find out what is happening here.

I do so believe when he approached you, he didn't already decided. How you took his attitude to be, is a matter of perceptive into which I can not go into. But I can sincerely doubt your conclusion how he made his mind prior approaching you about this.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Branimir

[magicninja]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1282164392' post='2421968']
When GATO clumsily dropped NSO, there was a thread by a member on our boards asking to drop the PIAT. Cortath stepped in and said how there will be no rash decisions made like that and that we shall trough dialog with GATO find out what is happening here.

I do so believe when he approached you, he didn't already decided. How you took his attitude to be, is a matter of perceptive into which I can not go into. But I can sincerely doubt your conclusion how he made his mind prior approaching you about this.
[/quote]

Branimir we like Cortath over at GATO. However, he came off as accusatory. Blatantly. I don't think anyone who saw his posts would disagree. Maybe he didn't have his mind completely made up but he was at the very least leaning heavily one way.

[Bilrow]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282165361' post='2421985']
Branimir we like Cortath over at GATO. However, he came off as accusatory. Blatantly. I don't think anyone who saw his posts would disagree. Maybe he didn't have his mind completely made up but he was at the very least leaning heavily one way.
[/quote]

Maybe you should re-read the thread Cortath started, as I just did at your forum as a mask diplomat, before you try to paint Cortath's post as accusatory.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Bilrow' timestamp='1282166688' post='2422015']
Maybe you should re-read the thread Cortath started, as I just did at your forum as a mask diplomat, before you try to paint Cortath's post as accusatory.
[/quote]

I've read and re-read. He says our opinions are not our own but those of VE and RoK among other insulting things. Maybe it is you who should re-read the thread.

Edited August 19, 2010 by magicninja

[Cortath]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282163961' post='2421955']
Well the reasoning is rather clear to anyone. NPO didn't like us canceling on NSO cutting our one tie to their side of the web. When Cortath came to ask about the cancellation it wasn't so much of a "Why did you cancel on NSO" as it was a "How dare you cancel on NSO". People in GATO got defensive after that post and I can't say I blame them. Cortath's attitude showed his mind was made up and he wanted to throw in some parting shots under the guise of diplomacy to say he "tried" to save the treaty. I don't mind. I like it when people show their true colors and this treaty is better off gone.
[/quote]

If you'd like to continue this discussion, I invite you to open a thread on our Embassy. It's not my intention and have never been to parade our private diplomatic correspondence on the OWF. If that's the route you wish to go, so be it, but I'd like to suggest the option of taking your issues with my private posting privately.

Let me simply say publicly, since you've gone out of your way to make these accusations, that I dispute your characterization of my words.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1282172908' post='2422151']
If you'd like to continue this discussion, I invite you to open a thread on our Embassy. It's not my intention and have never been to parade our private diplomatic correspondence on the OWF. If that's the route you wish to go, so be it, but I'd like to suggest the option of taking your issues with my private posting privately.

Let me simply say publicly, since you've gone out of your way to make these accusations, that I dispute your characterization of my words.
[/quote]

I'm sure you would dispute it but that doesn't make your words any less inflammatory than they were. Perhaps it was not your intention but it is what it is nonetheless. It looks to everyone who has read the posts from GATO that you were not there to hear our side of the story but only to reiterate NSO's side. I can't disagree with that sentiment and I can't blame our leader for becoming defensive to your remarks.

[Cortath]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282174253' post='2422195']
I'm sure you would dispute it but that doesn't make your words any less inflammatory than they were. Perhaps it was not your intention but it is what it is nonetheless. It looks to everyone who has read the posts from GATO that you were not there to hear our side of the story but only to reiterate NSO's side. I can't disagree with that sentiment and I can't blame our leader for becoming defensive to your remarks.
[/quote]

I will invite you again to Pacifics's Embassy on our forum.

If it's your wish to play public politics with private words, I find that rather disappointing.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1282174673' post='2422202']
I will invite you again to Pacifics's Embassy on our forum.

If it's your wish to play public politics with private words, I find that rather disappointing.
[/quote]

"Hey come to our turf where you will be outnumbered and we'll have the advantage and you will mocked and laughed at even if what you say is true!"

Yeah no thanks.

You know how you played it regardless whether you dispute it or not. The time has passed where Pacifica's Emperor's words are taken as pure truth on these boards. The fact that you toed the NSO party line, berated and insulted us, and really didn't have an interest in what we had to say remains fact. If something like that can change your position politically then maybe you should re-evaluate your position.

[Cortath]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282175161' post='2422214']
"Hey come to our turf where you will be outnumbered and we'll have the advantage and you will mocked and laughed at even if what you say is true!"

Yeah no thanks.

You know how you played it regardless whether you dispute it or not. The time has passed where Pacifica's Emperor's words are taken as pure truth on these boards. The fact that you toed the NSO party line, berated and insulted us, and really didn't have an interest in what we had to say remains fact. If something like that can change your position politically then maybe you should re-evaluate your position.
[/quote]

I'd be happy to visit your forum, comrade. Pacifica maintains an Embassy at GATO, and indeed, I began a thread to you on your forums before the post that I am quoting.

Your words dispirit me. We had a good working relationship during your time as AC.

I don't think either of our alliance will profit from continuing this exchange, though I sense already a political narrative you choose to build. Good day.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1282175333' post='2422220']
I'd be happy to visit your forum, comrade. Pacifica maintains an Embassy at GATO, and indeed, I began a thread to you on your forums before the post that I am quoting.

Your words dispirit me. We had a good working relationship during your time as AC.

I don't think either of our alliance will profit from continuing this exchange, though I sense already a political narrative you choose to build. Good day.
[/quote]

Your words in your thread didn't exactly delight me either. You chose to speak them anyway. You chose the manner in which you presented your words. That's fine if that is who you are. It seems I thought too highly of you. If there were any people I thought would come into situations without prejudging it was you and baka. However, you have ruined that characterization of yourself in my eyes. Take it as you will.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282175161' post='2422214']
The time has passed where Pacifica's Emperor's words are taken as pure truth on these boards.
[/quote]

Amen, brother.

[Cortath]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1282178629' post='2422295']
Amen, brother.
[/quote]

*chuckles heartily* Was my word taken as the gospel truth in the ODN lately?

[Ragashingo]

Three things:

1. Cortath: I tend to have a dislike of you for some of the things that happened back during and after the GATO - 1V war. I laughed and teased when I heard you were going to be the next Emperor of the NPO. But I've got to hand it to you, your handling of things in this topic is as good as I can expect from anyone. If you are this calm and composed in your dealings with people in private as well as in public then I think it's well past time for my old grudges to die.

2. To magicninja: For the past several days you have been doing GATO a huge disservice with your public posts and real time communications. In a situation where it would behoove you and your alliance to be quiet and apologetic you have been loud, obnoxious, rude, and borderline deceitful. You're taken it upon yourself to be a martyr and you've taken it upon yourself to defend a position that no rational person would dare stand behind. Any new ruler would look at your posts and conclude that you are trying your best to sully your alliance's reputation and to destroy what friendships it had. So with far more respect than you deserve I ask: Would you please shut up and let someone else be GATO's de-facto voice on the OWF?

3.I wouldn't mind seeing the post in question. I can't believe that it was so disrespectful and rude to cause all of this, but I would certainly admit I was in error.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282179949' post='2422326']
Three things:

1. Cortath: I tend to have a dislike of you for some of the things that happened back during and after the GATO - 1V war. I laughed and teased when I heard you were going to be the next Emperor of the NPO. But I've got to hand it to you, your handling of things in this topic is as good as I can expect from anyone. If you are this calm and composed in your dealings with people in private as well as in public then I think it's well past time for my old grudges to die.

2. To magicninja: For the past several days you have been doing GATO a huge disservice with your public posts and real time communications. In a situation where it would behoove you and your alliance to be quiet and apologetic you have been loud, obnoxious, rude, and borderline deceitful. You're taken it upon yourself to be a martyr and you've taken it upon yourself to defend a position that no rational person would dare stand behind. Any new ruler would look at your posts and conclude that you are trying your best to sully your alliance's reputation and to destroy what friendships it had. So with far more respect than you deserve I ask: Would you please shut up and let someone else be GATO's de-facto voice on the OWF?

3.I wouldn't mind seeing the post in question. I can't believe that it was so disrespectful and rude to cause all of this, but I would certainly admit I was in error.
[/quote]

You call it a disservice when your allies and friends are getting told the truth in a manner suitable for people who think as they do. I've been complimented far more in private, even by allies of NSO, then I've been told only by you as of now that my words are not helping. So, forgive me if I ignore your advice and continue decimating any argument the NSO and now by extension the NPO has on the matter.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282180661' post='2422335']
You call it a disservice when your allies and friends are getting told the truth in a manner suitable for people who think as they do. I've been complimented far more in private, even by allies of NSO, then I've been told only by you as of now that my words are not helping. So, forgive me if I ignore your advice and continue decimating any argument the NSO and now by extension the NPO has on the matter.
[/quote]

MN, why precisely is GATO so offended here? Your alliance cancelled a treaty, Pacifica cancelled a treaty. Smacks a little bit of hypocrisy I think if GATO is going to come onto the world stage to scream and yell, especially when Pacifica was far more reserved in the public declaration than GATO was. You and yours are the ones who appear to have started the public mud-slinging, not Pacifica. Besides, it's a relatively minor treaty that was lost and, over it, you and yours are trouncing any real chance for reconcilliation or future bridging.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1282181024' post='2422347']
MN, why precisely is GATO so offended here? Your alliance cancelled a treaty, Pacifica cancelled a treaty. Smacks a little bit of hypocrisy I think if GATO is going to come onto the world stage to scream and yell, especially when Pacifica was far more reserved in the public declaration than GATO was. You and yours are the ones who appear to have started the public mud-slinging, not Pacifica. Besides, it's a relatively minor treaty that was lost and, over it, you and yours are trouncing any real chance for reconcilliation or future bridging.
[/quote]

I think Banksy said it best on our boards:

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1282115179' post='10241140']
Real reason for cancellation: After GATO said they didn't want to upgrade the PIAT when the NPO came out of terms, the NPO kept it so they could try again in the future. GATO were a link to C&G and SF that the NPO and NSO could exploit in the future. Now, they are dropping it for the PR.
[/quote]

edit: (ooc: I am going out now, so I won't reply to anything you say in response until later.)

Edited August 19, 2010 by Kalasin

[Cortath]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1282181345' post='2422355']
I think Banksy said it best on our boards:



edit: (ooc: I am going out now, so I won't reply to anything you say in response until later.)
[/quote]

You really think that we think that we can gain some sort of ... foothold with some alliances through our alliance through GATO?

*chuckles*

We held a treaty with GATO since April 2009 because we valued our relationship with the Global Alliance Treaty Organization.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1282181345' post='2422355']
I think Banksy said it best on our boards, etc.
[/quote]

That's certainly possible, though a little cynical. I don't think there's any real credibility, considering the past relations between Pacifica and GATO, that you'd end up seeing something on the level of a mandatory defensive agreement. I'd rank this as likely as Pacifica and the IAA buddying up.

I suspect the more likely possibility lies with GATO's recent activities. For better or worse, Pacifica and the Sith enjoy a high-level treaty together. When GATO decided to take some shots at the Sith, drop their high-level agreement with them and then waved the decision all over the OWF in some mismanaged attempt at PR to capitalize on the anti-Sith feelings, Pacifica decided to drop a low-level treaty both as a signal to GATO of their displeasure with GATO's activities and with some understanding that GATO would probably do the same to them as they did to the Sith. Objectively, I wouldn't put much stock in GATO running to help me if I wasn't the golden child of the 'verse and/or was on the losing side of the good ol' treaty web what with what they've shown of late. For better or worse, Emperor Cortath has shown that he takes his responsibilities as leader of Pacifica seriously, especially when it comes to forming treaties which his alliance will rely on.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282180661' post='2422335']
You call it a disservice when your allies and friends are getting told the truth in a manner suitable for people who think as they do. I've been complimented far more in private, even by allies of NSO, then I've been told only by you as of now that my words are not helping. So, forgive me if I ignore your advice and continue decimating any argument the NSO and now by extension the NPO has on the matter.
[/quote]

Far more? So what, two people? Maybe three? I know how this game is played and how the numbers of nameless people agreeing with you in private is easily inflated. So lets do it this way. Whats the ratio of [i]actual people[/i] supporting you in public vs. those that think you'd best service your alliance by being locked far away from the public eye?

Edited August 19, 2010 by Ragashingo

[magicninja]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282181915' post='2422377']
Far more? So what, two people? Maybe three? I know how this game is played and how the numbers of nameless people agreeing with you in private is easily inflated. So lets do it this way. Whats the ratio of [i]actual people[/i] supporting you in public vs. those that think you'd best service your alliance by being locked far away from the public eye?
[/quote]

Besides my own alliance and allies? 1 to 1 now if were keeping it to public support. 7 to 2 if we count pms.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1282181024' post='2422347']
MN, why precisely is GATO so offended here? Your alliance cancelled a treaty, Pacifica cancelled a treaty. Smacks a little bit of hypocrisy I think if GATO is going to come onto the world stage to scream and yell, especially when Pacifica was far more reserved in the public declaration than GATO was. You and yours are the ones who appear to have started the public mud-slinging, not Pacifica. Besides, it's a relatively minor treaty that was lost and, over it, you and yours are trouncing any real chance for reconcilliation or future bridging.
[/quote]

I have no problem with NPO canceling. I took exception to the way Cortath approached us. Nothing more, nothing less.