In Response to Recent Drama

[Sulmar]

[quote name='Emporor' timestamp='1281379863' post='2408019']
I have remained quiet on this topic because I didn't want to go and give our plans away, but hell... Its not like all of CN doesn't already know where we stand, by looking at our treaties.

I was the first to inform GATO that NSO was about to get a beat down(I was probably the first to know outside of SF), and I was the first to ask them for their support in the campaign against NSO if we were thrown into this through our treaties(And yes, I am stating that we did/do have intentions of rolling the NSO side of this war if it escalates).. therefore, GATO would not be inclined to help the NSO in anyway due to the fact that obviously as CN knows, protectorates are far more important to most alliances, than some screw up MDP partner.

While I do NOT condone the actions of GATO for the way that this was handled, as I have told many of them in private channels, I will support my ally as I would support any other ally. I do not, see what the big deal is here to begin with. Obviously, GATO would not have gotten involved in this war for NSO even had the treaty not been voided out. To call GATO and/or her allies idiots over this, just shows that you have no idea of what you are talking about. I am sure this post won't change much, as most of you are to idiotic to know when you are wrong and when to shut up, so please carry on with your miserable lives.

That is all.
[/quote]
I pretty much lol'd at this entire post.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Sulmar

[Vasuda]

I am not surprised in the slightest. GATO once again shows its quality.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Emporor' timestamp='1281379863' post='2408019']
I have remained quiet on this topic because I didn't want to go and give our plans away, but hell... Its not like all of CN doesn't already know where we stand, by looking at our treaties.

I was the first to inform GATO that NSO was about to get a beat down(I was probably the first to know outside of SF), and I was the first to ask them for their support in the campaign against NSO if we were thrown into this through our treaties(And yes, I am stating that we did/do have intentions of rolling the NSO side of this war if it escalates).. therefore, GATO would not be inclined to help the NSO in anyway due to the fact that obviously as CN knows, protectorates are far more important to most alliances, than some screw up MDP partner.

While I do NOT condone the actions of GATO for the way that this was handled, as I have told many of them in private channels, I will support my ally as I would support any other ally. I do not, see what the big deal is here to begin with. Obviously, GATO would not have gotten involved in this war for NSO even had the treaty not been voided out. To call GATO and/or her allies idiots over this, just shows that you have no idea of what you are talking about. I am sure this post won't change much, as most of you are to idiotic to know when you are wrong and when to shut up, so please carry on with your miserable lives.

That is all.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I checked your treaties. You have none to link you to the war. However, if you wish, please do go ahead and attack us now as you planned. Another alliance hitting the bandwagon would be welcome at this point.

Anyway, I am dying to know how ICAN learned that we were getting rolled before we did. Why were you in the loop and we not?[/color]

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1281380090' post='2408030']
Whether or not you felt there was a 'threat', they were certainly aware that there was a 'situation.' Most people worth their salt would usually try to keep their other gov members up to speed on those things, in case the perception of 'threat' does materialize from it.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]There was a thread posted in the Dark Council forum. I posted my logs with Hoo (at four in the morning) and told GATO as soon as I was able the next day.[/color]

Edited August 9, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281379969' post='2408024']
Really? And how is that my defense? WHat am I defending? My right to post here? My right to contradict your pathetic arguments?
[/quote]
Defending that you hold a government post but your statements have no value. The actions of a government member have always been seen as the actions of that government, regardless of your internal rules. BTW Pathetic is canceling a treaty in less than 24 hours of your treaty partner being attacked. No way around it, GATO's move has WAE written all over it.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1281380090' post='2408030']
Whether or not you felt there was a 'threat', they were certainly aware that there was a 'situation.' Most people worth their salt would usually try to keep their other gov members up to speed on those things, in case the perception of 'threat' does materialize from it.
[/quote]
Can't inform folks that aren't around. Sunday is typically the day of rest, and they were all out doing stuff. Heck, Lintwad was on an Emperor Vacation until an hour before the declaration, as an example.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281379966' post='2408023']
Meh, we take full responsibility for what Heft did. I mean we're still getting rolled aren't we?
[/quote]
Hey man, it wasn't a hack on NSO, it was a hack on a GATO .gov member using the same defense they refuse to accept from you.

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281380556' post='2408047']
Defending that you hold a government post but your statements have no value. The actions of a government member have always been seen as the actions of that government, regardless of your internal rules. BTW Pathetic is canceling a treaty in less than 24 hours of your treaty partner being attacked. No way around it, GATO's move has WAE written all over it.
[/quote]
Your an idiot. I never said I was a government member. My signature doesnt claim I'm a government member. It says I'm a Deputy in the MoFA. And Pathetic, is how you continue to claim we cancelled the treaty, when NSO's actions made the treaty null and void.

[Sir Sci]

[quote name='Sulmar' timestamp='1281380424' post='2408041']
I pretty much lol'd at this entire post.
[/quote]

That's okay, I face[s]palmed[/s]walled.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281380847' post='2408059']
Your an idiot. I never said I was a government member. My signature doesnt claim I'm a government member. It says I'm a Deputy in the MoFA. And Pathetic, is how you continue to claim we cancelled the treaty, when NSO's actions made the treaty null and void.
[/quote]
Let me get this straight, you are saying a "deputy minister" is not a government position, is that correct?

[Sulmar]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281380847' post='2408059']
Your an idiot. I never said I was a government member. My signature doesnt claim I'm a government member. It says I'm a Deputy in the MoFA. And Pathetic, is how you continue to claim we cancelled the treaty, when NSO's actions made the treaty null and void.
[/quote]
In my world being DMoFA makes you are government member, low-level, but still government. I don't care about your internal rules.

[Chief Savage Man]

If you weren't willing to defend NSO, you should have canceled this earlier.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='James Wilson' timestamp='1281380847' post='2408059']
Your an idiot. I never said I was a government member. My signature doesnt claim I'm a government member. It says I'm a Deputy in the MoFA. And Pathetic, is how you continue to claim we cancelled the treaty, when NSO's actions made the treaty null and void.
[/quote]

Yeah pretty weak argument. Just stop. Please. Stop. I believe there's some internal debate in GATO about this decision. Why don't go attend to that?

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1281356047' post='2407330']
Are you really trying to tell us you had no idea of the consequences of your raid on the Knights of Ni!? Please. There is little difference between what NSO did and what you did albeit NSO's was on a smaller scale and they didn't have the muscle behind them to get out of it. When told you were being stupid, did you stop or continue on? You continued on of course telling everyone it was none of their business, Yet, your allies stood by you and now you come here defending an alliance who bailed on an ally even when they were told they would not be dragged into the conflict.

Seriously, your posts here have the be the largest deposits of guano I have seen for some time.[/quote]

Firstly, no, I didn't realize that opportunistic moralists would try to roll Athens over the Ni! raid. The raiding of 30+ member alliances was certainly not an unheard of practice, and no one had been rolled over such before. I and several others engaged in fair 3v3 raids vs our opponents, and immediately sent peace. The measure of how bad this was for Knights of Ni!, opportunistic moralists claims notwithstanding, can be seen just by checking their stats now. They had 38 members then and under 1 million NS. Despite the world having lost quite a few members since then, they have more members and more NS now. Publicity is seldom a bad thing.

And there's a big difference in these situations. The people who intervened or attempted to intervene over Knights of Ni! were o'erweening moralists, not allies (unlike RoK-TENE). What is more is that I did in fact back down and even apologize so as not to put my allies in the position of fighting a war because of it, even though the people who got in my face over it were not in any way connected to Knights of Ni!, and even though some of my allies were begging me to escalate it and telling me I shouldn't allow others to dictate our behavior to alliances that said others were not in any way connected to. But ultimately, I decided that it wasn't the right cause to start a GW over, largely out of respect of the interests of my allies, and so I backed down even though the people up in our face really had no business interfering with a tech raid which had ended as soon as it began anyway. NSO could have got out of this just fine by [b]not knowingly committing an act of war[/b] against Ragnarok. The situations are knight and day different.



[quote]Like you did with your raid on Knights of Ni!, right? The double-standard being displayed here is simply breathtaking. "When my alliance raids another alliance and then act like arrogant arsehats when called on it I'm just being stupid and my allies have to defend me! But, if an alliance gets into trouble over some rogue issue and their beligerence gets them in trouble then their allies are justified in throwing them under the bus."

The only real difference is that you had a number of powerful, well-connected allies to ward off the vultures and drag you back into line. NSO doesn't have that luxury and they'll burn because of it. If anything the positive to come out of it is they finally saw what craven opportunists their GATO "allies" are so it won't be a total loss.
[/quote]

No, the difference here is that we didn't commit an act of aggression against someone who was well connected. NSO did, after being told point blank what the consequences would be if they did. What is more is that, while having a large number of powerful allies is helpful in warding off attacks, there is also a reason that NSO does not have such while Athens did and still does. We don't sign treaties for "strategic reasons" and treat people like they are disposable, we sign them out of friendship and we are loyal to the people we sign with. One of our friends is GATO. We will defend them here against attacks on their PR, and we will defend them on the battlefield if it comes to that. That's what real friends do for one another.

[Ardus]

This entire thread is an Aggro-Crag of incompetence.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281380664' post='2408051']
Can't inform folks that aren't around. Sunday is typically the day of rest, and they were all out doing stuff. Heck, Lintwad was on an Emperor Vacation until an hour before the declaration, as an example.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Also, as a note, Heggo was also unavailable, as he was and still is on vacation. He had limited access and was unavailable for most of yesterday as well.[/color]

[relyt92]

This is very classy and i wholeheartedly support this cancellation. Just kidding.

[dvdcchn]

[quote name='Bower3aj' timestamp='1281378541' post='2407959']
I don't think anybody has actually caught this yet, though to be fair I've only gone through the first 6 pages. But did nobody notice that they're complaining that NSO wasn't the first one to tell them but VE told them before NSO. VE, who declared war on NSO told them that they were declaring war on NSO before NSO could tell them that they were about to get stomped. This might be the worst defense I've ever heard.
[/quote]


lol it has been caught my orange brother, but again silly facts such as GATO knew but didnt go to their ally NSO is besides the point, the miscommunication is just a farce. heck i found out first not from NSO, but from my allies and friends. this whole thing happened in the middle of the night, and did not even span 12 hours. at least one gov member of GATO acknowledges that NSO was thrown under the bus.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281380003' post='2408026']


4. I don't think GATO could have done anything for NSO even if they did ask for help after all of this !@#$. Our charter relegates us to a defensive alliance. We CAN NOT intervene if an ally brings war upon themselves as is clearly the case here. Our allies should know this by now. If the attacks were unprovoked we'll ride with you til the end.

[/quote]

I'm pretty sure omni just called me a liar when I pointed out that fact of a defensive charter. Regardless, RoK was informed that the member was under our protection until we were given reason not to be. They attacked, I believe after claiming that they wouldn't. It would have been a better idea not to aid the nation to avoid any sort of escalation, but the fact is still that RoK made the aggressive move to which we responded.

[TehChron]

[quote]No, the difference here is that we didn't commit an act of aggression against someone who was well connected. NSO did, after being told point blank what the consequences would be if they did. What is more is that, while having a large number of powerful allies is helpful in warding off attacks, there is also a reason that NSO does not have such while Athens did and still does. We don't sign treaties for "strategic reasons" and treat people like they are disposable, we sign them out of friendship and we are loyal to the people we sign with. One of our friends is GATO. We will defend them here against attacks on their PR, and we will defend them on the battlefield if it comes to that. That's what real friends do for one another. [/quote]Yeah, Londo, except for the fact that GATO is someone we actually had a friendship with.

Thats pretty well established at this point.

And it's what made this cancellation so galling for us.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Chron

[lamuella]

There's something so entertaining about an alliance explaining that their yellow streak is actually blonde highlights.

[Kzoppistan]

Convenient use of the treaty technicalities.

[Van Hoo III]

Well, that is lulzy finger wagging directed our way by GATO. Believe me when I tell you that it "won't go un-noticed" either.

I am sure that I have a stoning coming my way for agreeing with those dastardly Sith, but really it should have went something like:

GATO: Hey, I hear you guys are getting attacked by RoK.

NSO: Wait. What? I have not heard of this.

GATO: Oh, I thought you just weren't telling us about it.

NSO: Well no, had we thought it was happening, we would have. We better prepare. Thanks for the heads up, guys.

GATO: No problem.

[Lennox]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1281381505' post='2408083']
Convenient use of the treaty technicalities.
[/quote]

Well, when the odds aren't in your favor, it changes [i]everything[/i].

[TehChron]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281381557' post='2408084']
Well, that is lulzy finger wagging directed our way by GATO. Believe me when I tell you that it "won't go un-noticed" either.

I am sure that I have a stoning coming my way for agreeing with those dastardly Sith, but really it should have went something like:

GATO: Hey, I hear you guys are getting attacked by RoK.

NSO: Wait. What? I have not heard of this.

GATO: Oh, I thought you just weren't telling us about it.

NSO: Well no, had we thought it was happening, we would have. We better prepare. Thanks for the heads up, guys.

GATO: No problem.
[/quote]Hey, if I send you that 6 million for that excellent line, would you consider it reps and bring these shens to a close?

[Owned-You]

Dear GATO,

You would have been wise to make this a private notification only rather then a public topic. Your not obligated to make it public but you choose to anyways, your PR fault is yours and yours alone irregardless of your reasoning or logic. Furthermore, attempting to justify your actions only further picks at this blister of a topic. While your allies may very well support you in this matter, it is ultimately making you look like more and more incompetent as this topic drags on. Even more so in the OP the passive aggressive attacks on RoK are laughable at best and disingenuous at worst to the image and persona you've long championed. GATO, simply put; get your house in order.