Ragnarok Declaration of War

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281665102' post='2413664']
Sedrick was in a state of war with RoK prior to joining NSO. NSO does deserve to burn, burn to the ground. Maybe a viceroy is in order.
[/quote]As I have established, this is a lie.

RoK never declared a state of war prior to Sedrick joining NSO, and one did not exist through treaty technicalities (Even if you take the treaty literally to the exact letter, an act of war does not confer a state of war between the parties, as established by longstanding precedent of diplomacy in general).

[Heft]

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1281666158' post='2413686']
NSO actually did practically the exact same thing to RAD roughly a year ago that Rok is doing to NSO today. Strange that they don't see a parallel.
[/quote]
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90352&view=findpost&p=2413412"]It is actually an interesting comparison, discussed elsewhere already.[/url]

[PotFace]

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1281666158' post='2413686']
NSO actually did practically the exact same thing to RAD roughly a year ago that Rok is doing to NSO today. Strange that they don't see a parallel.
[/quote]

Did you just say that RoK is as bad as NSO? Or vise versa?

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281666396' post='2413693']
As I have established, this is a lie.

RoK never declared a state of war prior to Sedrick joining NSO, and one did not exist through treaty technicalities (Even if you take the treaty literally to the exact letter, an act of war does not confer a state of war between the parties, as established by longstanding precedent of diplomacy in general).
[/quote]
Thats because you are behaving like a big dolt and failing to admit that TENE is RoKs protectorate and there for a attack on TENE is an attack on RoK. After 3 days of this I have to assume you are intentionally behaving like a moron.

[Adrian LaCroix]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281666396' post='2413693']
As I have established, this is a lie.

RoK never declared a state of war prior to Sedrick joining NSO, and one did not exist through treaty technicalities (Even if you take the treaty literally to the exact letter, an act of war does not confer a state of war between the parties, as established by longstanding precedent of diplomacy in general).
[/quote]

All you've established is that you haven't got the slightest clue how protectorates work, and always have worked.

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281666439' post='2413694']
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90352&view=findpost&p=2413412"]It is actually an interesting comparison, discussed elsewhere already.[/url]
[/quote]
that happens >.>

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281666493' post='2413697']
Did you just say that RoK is as bad as NSO? Or vise versa?
[/quote]
What has 'bad' to do with a purportedly amoral alliance? But in any case no, my point is that NSO have been relatively unscathed by any military repurcussions of their policies or actions in the past, but that doesn't mean that they have an automatic carte-blanche to act like tools and expect constant acceptance. It was always possible that someone would react negatively, which is what has happened with Rok.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Vanilla Napalm

[Keres]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281664999' post='2413659']
Had RoK simply attacked the nations sending aid, or even just attacked Heft, or both, they would be more justified than they are in attacking the whole of NSO. It's still up for debate, considering RoK attacked a NSO member without giving a heads up or a reason, but it definitely would not have been as bad had they taken that course of action.
[/quote]

Since when do you need to give a reason (to a rogue) to get rid of it because it did something dumb? also, he got ALL the heads up in the world, as attacking TENE he knew there would be some backlash...

As for NSO they got whats coming to them for that slap in the face and calling Hoo's bluff, they got a fair warning (that Hoo didnt even really have to give) that aiding it would mean war AAAND now they have it and they're getting their @#$% kicked, end of story really... RoK isnt the kind of alliance that will bend over and take it, especially not from fail siths. they just found that out the hard way. Hoping to sear that into their brains with nukes for the next time.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1281667285' post='2413718']
that happens >.>


What has 'bad' to do with a purportedly amoral alliance? But in any case no, my point is that NSO have been relatively unscathed by any military repurcussions of their policies or actions in the past, but that doesn't mean that they have an automatic carte-blanche to act like tools and expect constant acceptance. It was always possible that someone would react negatively, which is what has happened with Rok.
[/quote]


Judging by the logs in the OP, I wouldn't say that NSO expects anything from anyone. Much less "acceptance". And yes, there's plenty of negative reaction. But that's mostly because the aggressors here were banking on the idea that a valid CB would be enough on its own. Anyone that knows anything about CN history would know that the CB, by itself, is NEVER enough. Unless it's [i]really[/i] good, and every single possible diplomatic effort - taking days, if not weeks - had failed.

In case you can't tell the difference here's what I mean: Karma War DoW? Very good. Very few people questioned it. Excellent CB, excellent citation of evidence, excellent diplomatic effort. The NPO-GPA War? Horrible. Loose evidence. Trivial CB. Too many unanswered questions. And a clear alternative motive. Which one of these two scenarios would you say this current war relates to the most? And how is it that under the same breath, as the events themselves unfold, can you call NSO immoral? Especially after they've asked their allies to stay out of this to avoid this from escalating into a world war?

[Keres]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281669209' post='2413768']
can you call NSO immoral? Especially after they've asked their allies to stay out of this to avoid this from escalating into a world war?
[/quote]

If you think thats why they did it...

Id be more inclined to think they're trying to look like martyrs and failing at it BIG time... they didn't do it save their "friends" its just a pretty gutless, as far as "sith" as you can get attempt at sympathy...

[PotFace]

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281669580' post='2413779']
If you think thats why they did it...

Id be more inclined to think they're trying to look like martyrs and failing at it BIG time... they didn't do it save their "friends" its just a pretty gutless, as far as "sith" as you can get attempt at sympathy...
[/quote]



Sympathy, honor, call it what you will. It [i]could[/i] simply be just a political move to improve their image, sure. We can chew on that idea for a little while if you want to. But, I think that Hoo himself said it best. "It is what it is". I'd hate to think that the whole world would go to war over something this trivial. If that were to happen, then what would that say about every leader that grabbed their alliances and gallivanted off into this? I wouldn't think very highly of them, that's for sure. And I think that if the responsibility to prevent a global war over something like [i]this[/i] rested on any responsible leader's shoulders, they would do the same.

So, the options you have offered here, is either scoff at NSO for keeping their buddies out, or scoff at them for helping to turn molehills into mountains.

Edit: spelling

Edited August 13, 2010 by PotFace

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281669209' post='2413768']
Judging by the logs in the OP, I wouldn't say that NSO expects anything from anyone. Much less "acceptance". And yes, there's plenty of negative reaction. But that's mostly because the aggressors here were banking on the idea that a valid CB would be enough on its own. Anyone that knows anything about CN history would know that the CB, by itself, is NEVER enough. Unless it's [i]really[/i] good, and every single possible diplomatic effort - taking days, if not weeks - had failed.

In case you can't tell the difference here's what I mean: Karma War DoW? Very good. Very few people questioned it. Excellent CB, excellent citation of evidence, excellent diplomatic effort. The NPO-GPA War? Horrible. Loose evidence. Trivial CB. Too many unanswered questions. And a clear alternative motive. Which one of these two scenarios would you say this current war relates to the most? And how is it that under the same breath, as the events themselves unfold, can you call NSO immoral? Especially after they've asked their allies to stay out of this to avoid this from escalating into a world war?
[/quote]

Amoral, not immoral... That is the NSO alliance platform, but that's neither here nor there.
Judging this war by placing it some abstract juxtaposition between a few limited aspects of two different wars is a ridiculous analogy. Rok isn't obliged to perform any standardised ritual of criterea to qualify their reactions to clear transgressions against them. How they respond to a valid CAUSE FOR WAR is their own decision.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Vanilla Napalm

[PotFace]

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1281670949' post='2413825']
Amoral, not immoral... That is the NSO alliance platform, but that's neither here nor there.
Judging this war by placing it some abstract juxtaposition between a few limited aspects of two different wars is a ridiculous analogy. Rok isn't obliged to perform any standardised ritual of criterea to qualify their reactions to clear transgressions against them. How they respond to a valid CAUSE FOR WAR is their own decision.
[/quote]


Well, there you have it. That's also reminiscent of the pre-Karma NPO way of looking at things as well. It's also careless politics. We all live in the same cyberverse. If you don't care about your neighbors, well, you're setting yourselves up for failure. It's not exactly brain surgery.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I haven't been around so I don't really know what is going on. Aside from my popping in the other night and going back and forth with a few people I haven't paid this much attention, mainly because I am still retired.

But, after taking a few minutes to actually read the logs I have to say I am a bit surprised at how things went down.

Most people here know Heft. They know that he has been here for a long time and that he is one of the few "good" diplomats in the Cyberverse. When I read the logs in the OP and review the sequence of events I can't help to objectively (and yes, I mean that, not for or against the Order, but just as a non-combatant observer) see some glaringly obvious errors between what is being pushed as the "common" acceptance of the CB and reality.

This is how I processed the sequence of events, if they are in error please correct me, as I said, I have not been paying attention:

1. Sedrick goes rogue on TENE (a practice I disagree with)
2. TENE counters against Sedrick (good, he deserved it if he was a rogue)
3. Sedrick joins NSO (not sure why this happened, I was always clear that active rogues needed to get their !@#$ together first but meh, it happened evidently)
4. RoK declares on Sedrick (I know RoK is TENE's protector but is this generally how this happens? Again, I don't know.)
5. Heft approaches Hoo to ask why RoK is attacking a NSO member (seems reasonable enough)
6. Hoo states that Sedrick attacked their protectorate and they are just supporting them (okay, not exactly the best way to go about it but still justified IMO)
7. Hoo states that attacks on Sedrick will stop if Sedrick pays reps to TENE (okay, fine, but if he is getting the crap beat out of him how is he going to have the funds to pay?)
8. Heft states that NSO will send aid to Sedrick (not my preferred response but Heft states that it was for peace very specifically, I could interpret that as this aid being meant to pay those reps)
9. Hoo states that it is an act of war and declares without discussion of the issue (really? If it was [i]any[/i] other alliance in the Cyberverse would this have happened?)
10. Heft again states that he was sending aid to Sedrick in order to secure peace (again, I can only surmise that this was intended as some form of support for the rep payment)

What am I missing here?

[the masheen]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281671086' post='2413829']
Well, there you have it. That's also reminiscent of the pre-Karma NPO way of looking at things as well. It's also careless politics. We all live in the same cyberverse. If you don't care about your neighbors, well, you're setting yourselves up for failure. It's not exactly brain surgery.
[/quote]

It's not like they weren't warned about it. "Careless Politics" would be more along the lines of what NSO did. ROK said if they aided the nation it would be an act of war, and they did. That's careless politics.

[PotFace]

[quote name='the masheen' timestamp='1281671381' post='2413835']
....."Careless Politics" would be more along the lines of what NSO did. ROK said if they aided the nation it would be an act of war, and they did. That's careless politics.
[/quote]

Agreed. This point has been hammered to death. I think that both parties have been pretty politically irresponsible in this entire fiasco. However, I also think that most of us looked to RoK to be the more mature alliance in this situation, and so far, with a DoW over something that most other alliances can handle without one, the charging in without allowing TENE to at least handle [i]some[/i] of its own business first, and the "justification" of all of this, well, some of us are pretty disappointed.

I've said my piece on this - you guys have fun wrapping it up.

[the masheen]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281671214' post='2413832']
I haven't been around so I don't really know what is going on. Aside from my popping in the other night and going back and forth with a few people I haven't paid this much attention, mainly because I am still retired.

But, after taking a few minutes to actually read the logs I have to say I am a bit surprised at how things went down.

Most people here know Heft. They know that he has been here for a long time and that he is one of the few "good" diplomats in the Cyberverse. When I read the logs in the OP and review the sequence of events I can't help to objectively (and yes, I mean that, not for or against the Order, but just as a non-combatant observer) see some glaringly obvious errors between what is being pushed as the "common" acceptance of the CB and reality.

This is how I processed the sequence of events, if they are in error please correct me, as I said, I have not been paying attention:

1. Sedrick goes rogue on TENE (a practice I disagree with)
2. TENE counters against Sedrick (good, he deserved it if he was a rogue)
3. Sedrick joins NSO (not sure why this happened, I was always clear that active rogues needed to get their !@#$ together first but meh, it happened evidently)
4. RoK declares on Sedrick (I know RoK is TENE's protector but is this generally how this happens? Again, I don't know.)
5. Heft approaches Hoo to ask why RoK is attacking a NSO member (seems reasonable enough)
6. Hoo states that Sedrick attacked their protectorate and they are just supporting them (okay, not exactly the best way to go about it but still justified IMO)
7. Hoo states that attacks on Sedrick will stop if Sedrick pays reps to TENE (okay, fine, but if he is getting the crap beat out of him how is he going to have the funds to pay?)
8. Heft states that NSO will send aid to Sedrick (not my preferred response but Heft states that it was for peace very specifically, I could interpret that as this aid being meant to pay those reps)
9. Hoo states that it is an act of war and declares without discussion of the issue (really? If it was [i]any[/i] other alliance in the Cyberverse would this have happened?)
10. Heft again states that he was sending aid to Sedrick in order to secure peace (again, I can only surmise that this was intended as some form of support for the rep payment)

What am I missing here?
[/quote]

The only part I would disagree with is number 9. Hoo told Heft before NSO aided sedrick that it would be considered an act of war. NSO proceeded to aid sedrick, which they've admitted was not a good idea. There wasn't much discussion, but enough so where Heft probably knew that NSO should not have aided sedrick, at least until he further discussed the matter with Hoo.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='the masheen' timestamp='1281672028' post='2413850']
The only part I would disagree with is number 9. Hoo told Heft before NSO aided sedrick that it would be considered an act of war. NSO proceeded to aid sedrick, which they've admitted was not a good idea. There wasn't much discussion, but enough so where Heft probably knew that NSO should not have aided sedrick, at least until he further discussed the matter with Hoo.
[/quote]
Okay, so let's go with that. If Heft has admitted that it was an error and Heft isn't the Emperor or Dark Lord of the NSO, the former being the only one capable of declaring war and the latter being the one in charge if the former is unavailable, but still not available to do so, then at what point does Heft having aid sent to Sedrick constitute more than an error that any other two alliances would have reasonably addressed and clarified over most likely a couple of days before it got to the point of actual war?

I'm just curious. It just seems odd, since everyone is claiming that escalation was not the intent, to go to war over this without some level of discussion, especially on the scale that occurred. Of course, if RoK needed that much help I guess it is a good thing those other guys were ready to roll.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281672450' post='2413864']
Okay, so let's go with that. If Heft has admitted that it was an error and Heft isn't the Emperor or Dark Lord of the NSO, the former being the only one capable of declaring war and the latter being the one in charge if the former is unavailable, but still not available to do so, then at what point does Heft having aid sent to Sedrick constitute more than an error that any other two alliances would have reasonably addressed and clarified over most likely a couple of days before it got to the point of actual war?

I'm just curious. It just seems odd, since everyone is claiming that escalation was not the intent, to go to war over this without some level of discussion, especially on the scale that occurred. Of course, if RoK needed that much help I guess it is a good thing those other guys were ready to roll.
[/quote]
Ivan, as far as diplomacy is concern, it's not much different than when you made a snap decision to beat up RAD. It happens.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281672450' post='2413864']
Okay, so let's go with that. If Heft has admitted that it was an error and Heft isn't the Emperor or Dark Lord of the NSO, the former being the only one capable of declaring war and the latter being the one in charge if the former is unavailable, but still not available to do so, then at what point does Heft having aid sent to Sedrick constitute more than an error that any other two alliances would have reasonably addressed and clarified over most likely a couple of days before it got to the point of actual war?

I'm just curious. It just seems odd, since everyone is claiming that escalation was not the intent, to go to war over this without some level of discussion, especially on the scale that occurred. Of course, if RoK needed that much help I guess it is a good thing those other guys were ready to roll.
[/quote]

Is there some way you can un-retire?

[Keres]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281671214' post='2413832']

9. Hoo states that it is an act of war and declares without discussion of the issue (really? If it was [i]any[/i] other alliance in the Cyberverse would this have happened?)
[/quote]

As was said, Hoo let them know that sending aid to the rogue would be seen as an act of war BEFORE it was sent... this is really what makes it a slap to the face... this is NSO saying "we'll do what we want, screw you" thinking RoK wouldnt DARE touch them... proved them wrong...

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281672644' post='2413868']
Ivan, as far as diplomacy is concern, it's not much different than when you made a snap decision to beat up RAD. It happens.
[/quote]
Actually, it is quite different. Since I notice that that is your only flimsy thread that you have been clinging to again and again I will address it.

A member of RAD's government, the MoD if memory serves correctly, declared upon a member of my government after being told that such a declaration would be an act of war.

In this instance, a random new member is attacked by a third party and then sent aid. No member of NSO government attacked RoK.

Perhaps I missed that declaration prior to Hoo's declaration of war. Can you point it out to me?

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281672739' post='2413874']
As was said, Hoo let them know that sending aid to the rogue would be seen as an act of war BEFORE it was sent... this is really what makes it a slap to the face... this is NSO saying "we'll do what we want, screw you" thinking RoK wouldnt DARE touch them... proved them wrong...
[/quote]
Yes, please see my response to this point just a few posts ago.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1281666158' post='2413686']
NSO actually did practically the exact same thing to RAD roughly a year ago that Rok is doing to NSO today. Strange that they don't see a parallel.
[/quote]
The NSO-RAD war ended in white peace and lasted a few days.

I'm sure that if this one went the same way, you'd see everyone stop complaining.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1281672710' post='2413869']
Is there some way you can un-retire?
[/quote]
God I hope not.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281672944' post='2413877']
Actually, it is quite different. Since I notice that that is your only flimsy thread that you have been clinging to again and again I will address it.

A member of RAD's government, the MoD if memory serves correctly, declared upon a member of my government after being told that such a declaration would be an act of war.

In this instance, a random new member is attacked by a third party and then sent aid. No member of NSO government attacked RoK.

Perhaps I missed that declaration prior to Hoo's declaration of war. Can you point it out to me?
[/quote]
Your glossing over some facts, in the first instance, your MoD asked to be attacked in their chan, as in a duel, but whatever.

Heft is in fact a member of NSO government, and Heft ordered the aid to be sent to Sedrick, so it is plainly seen that Heft a high member of NSO government ordered that acts of war perpetrated against RoK. I don't see how you can get around that fact.