Protection

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1280097684' post='2388803']
Yeah, read up, buddy.
[/quote]

I have, will you?

As for GOONS, they're peacing out. Uncertain then what you consider the parameters of this brink to be.

Edited July 25, 2010 by SirWilliam

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1280097867' post='2388810']
It is quite common in our public discourse to examine the actions of various alliances in recent conflicts in an attempt to determine if anyone was right or wrong. I'm not sure how you haven't noticed this yet in your time in the Cyberverse.
[/quote]

Sums up my interest in the topic at the present time. I'm not opposed to raiding as a general principle, I am however opposed to being a complete richard about it.

[Alterego]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1280096338' post='2388777']
Whether a state of protection existed - and was announced - prior to the raids is a non-issue considering that MA has now made it clear that the SoL AA is protected, in which case, being a protected alliance, cessation of attacks and declarations of peace would be in order.

I have confidence that, despite the rabble rousing of the masses, GOONS will handle this situation amicably.
[/quote]
Your idea of whats amicable is interesting.

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1280097984' post='2388814']
I have, will you?

As for GOONS, they're peacing out. Uncertain then what you consider the parameters of this brink to be.
[/quote]
Hoos comments make it clear that he would have rolled them in seconds. Luckily for GOONS MA were more considerate.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Iserlohn' timestamp='1280084303' post='2388522']
Contrary to a "double standard" as some people put it, GOONS strives for a single standard that can be applied to all of CN, regardless of power or position. People may call us amoral, but you can't really call us inequitable.
[/quote]

Clearly not true. The standard for tech raids, for instance, is nothing but ground attacks, then send a peace offer. Raids don't normally last for a week, don't normally hit alliances, and don't require the attacked party to beg for peace by writing whatever nonsense stories GOONS decides will humiliate them the most.

You guys invariably claim "It's our alliance, we have the sovereign right to do what we want", yet you are always trying to tell other alliances how they have to run their alliance.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1280097867' post='2388810']
It is quite common in our public discourse to examine the actions of various alliances in recent conflicts in an attempt to determine if anyone was right or wrong. I'm not sure how you haven't noticed this yet in your time in the Cyberverse.
[/quote]

Oh of course, but this seems like an examination of a routine matter solved normally. Seems rather silly to me.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1280097984' post='2388814']
I have, will you?

As for GOONS, they're peacing out. Uncertain then what you consider the parameters of this brink to be.
[/quote]
"Prove it and btw no we won't stop attacking" is about as far from amicable solution as it gets. GOONS gave MA no recourse with that reaction except to edfend their protected AA which put the bill at everyone's feet. Or I guess you also think Hoo was lying when he said GOONS initially refused to stop the attacks.

[MASTABADEY]

[quote name='Iserlohn' timestamp='1280086967' post='2388562']
Also, our members do in fact already follow an [b]extremely[/b] high degree of due diligence. For the raided AA they are required to check the wiki, OWF, [u]and[/u] IRC. Likewise for any listed active protectors in the raided AA's wiki or OWF info. We do not require them to ask on IRC whether a private unannounced merge implies de facto protection.
[/quote]
In a totally unrelated matter,

Care to explain to me why GOONS raided on one of my members in Spamalot if your alliance follows those rules? Our protectorate treaty was posted along with our DoE and I'm pretty damn sure that if one of your members came to our channel, we would have made it clear that we were protected. But hey, its the GOONS who ever considered you guys to be worthy of your word?

Edited July 25, 2010 by MASTABADEY

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1280098594' post='2388833']
Your idea of whats amicable is interesting.
[/quote]

You're aware I gave no idea(s) as to what I feel constitutes an amicable resolution, right?

(Apparently you're not.)

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1280098813' post='2388845']
"Prove it and btw no we won't stop attacking" is about as far from amicable solution as it gets. GOONS gave MA no recourse with that reaction except to edfend their protected AA which put the bill at everyone's feet. -snipped assumption-
[/quote]

Yet GOONS has sent peace offers, yet MA won't have to defend an AA they protect, and yet there's no bill at anyone's feet.

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1280094267' post='2388737']
Alright, so why is there a difference in GOONS' response when CptGodzilla informs GOONS via IRC as opposed to the forums? Nobody can fault GOONS for the initial raid, but it seems odd that there is such a noticeable difference in GOONS' response depending on the mode of communication.
[/quote]
I believe that would be the difference between members and government.

[quote name='ShadowDragon' timestamp='1280094622' post='2388751']
There is public record of MA having a MADP with SoL, which was never announced anywhere to be canceled or made invalid. Just because someone edits the wiki saying they merged doesn't automatically make their ties disappear.
[/quote]
This is the worst argument I have seen in a long time.

If I took up the AA of the Atlantic Shadow Confederation, does that make my 1-man AA part of Superfriends?

[Moridin]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1280098763' post='2388843']
Oh of course, but this seems like an examination of a routine matter solved normally. Seems rather silly to me.
[/quote]

When one party [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=89629&view=findpost&p=2388543]publicly states[/url] they were ready to escalate the conflict to all-out war, I would disagree that "routine" is an accurate characterization of the situation.

[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1280100047' post='2388877']I believe that would be the difference between members and government.[/quote]

Not being familiar with the structure of GOONS, I assumed that [url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=397425]"High War Adjudicator"[/url] was an office of some importance in issues of war, and at least not simply a regular member. Perhaps a GOONS member can clarify.

[Furril]

I'm high Lord of Twinkies in GOONS, it's not an important position but I like to carry myself as though it is.

[ShadowDragon]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1280100047' post='2388877']
I believe that would be the difference between members and government.


This is the worst argument I have seen in a long time.

If I took up the AA of the Atlantic Shadow Confederation, does that make my 1-man AA part of Superfriends?
[/quote]

Not really. For ASC the merger was announced and is linked on the wiki. For SoL there was no official merger or disbandment announced anywhere by anyone and there are no links anywhere saying they aren't still protected.

Though this entire argument seems pretty pointless now since the situation is apparently resolved.

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1280100858' post='2388900']
Not being familiar with the structure of GOONS, I assumed that [url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=397425]"High War Adjudicator"[/url] was an office of some importance in issues of war, and at least not simply a regular member. Perhaps a GOONS member can clarify.
[/quote]
Beefspari appears to have been consistent.

[Moridin]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1280101468' post='2388919']
Beefspari appears to have been consistent.
[/quote]

Beefspari was the one who [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=89629&view=findpost&p=2388676]offered[/url] the 'compromise' of not declaring any future wars against Solders of Legion but finishing current raids after CptGodzilla claimed on IRC that Monos Archein was protecting SoL. Upon posting notice of that protection to the forums, the GOONS stance changed, and GOONS offered peace in the current raids. There is an inconsistency at least between Beefspari's initial stance upon being informed of the protection and GOONS' final stance after this thread was posted.

[eyriq]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1280093927' post='2388728']
Surely you jest, sir.
[/quote]

Somewhat. GOONS has redeeming qualities, such as great leadership and a great ally in Umbrella, and I can appreciate the delicacy of conducting a successful raid, and I'm sure it would be so much the better if certain social conventions would align to support GOONS raiding policy. At the same time, the misalignment of current social conventions and GOONS raiding policy are creating observable friction. So while I was partly jesting seeing as Nippy had commented on my use of the word "prediction" in another thread and I thought I'd try an inside joke about it here, the bare bones point still stands that a shift is going to need to take place one way or the other. I wonder if GOONS is big enough to cause an earthquake?

[CptGodzilla]

I guess I should explain some things. I was not posting this thread specifically at GOONS in any type of retaliatory action. I noticed from the conversation that if raids were to occur again in the future, that I would be put in the same predicament. Since no official notice of SoL's merger into MA was made, there was no initial thread for me to convey the protection of the AA. I generally don't know what I'm doing when it comes to the cybernations wiki, so I was unsure if there was a specified place to provide notice of protection.

The GOONS member did everything they could when deciding if they could raid or not. I had no problem with the raids because it was my fault for not making sure people knew of the protection. I also could have timed this thread differently, as I was not aiming this at GOONS. I was planning on letting the whole "back channels" thing work itself out.

The whole purpose of this thread is to provide public notice of protection to the AA of Soldiers of Legion (note: I have a list of all the members of the alliance before the merge and won't allow people to use the AA to try to hide) and not to "bash" GOONS or discredit them in any way.

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1280101764' post='2388930']
Beefspari was the one who [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=89629&view=findpost&p=2388676]offered[/url] the 'compromise' of not declaring any future wars against Solders of Legion but finishing current raids after CptGodzilla claimed on IRC that Monos Archein was protecting SoL. Upon posting notice of that protection to the forums, the GOONS stance changed, and GOONS offered peace in the current raids. There is an inconsistency at least between Beefspari's initial stance upon being informed of the protection and GOONS' final stance after this thread was posted.
[/quote]
I would imagine that some of the raiders, one at least since his war declaration mentions it, had already sent peace. I assume the others, upon receiving a PM from the raided nation, also sent peace as is the custom of many tech raiders.

[NLights]

This week in CyberNations News: Can the GOONS fascination with burning bridges be solved? Bobians must know!

(Sorry, but it seems to be true guys )

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='CptGodzilla' timestamp='1280105129' post='2389035']
The GOONS member did everything they could when deciding if they could raid or not. I had no problem with the raids because it was my fault for not making sure people knew of the protection. I also could have timed this thread differently, as I was not aiming this at GOONS. I was planning on letting the whole "back channels" thing work itself out.
[/quote]

How do you figure?

Any potential raider with half a brain should have very quickly figured out that Soldiers of Legion was either an ally of or under the protection of Monos Archein. I've never heard of a merger where the absorbing alliance [i]didn't[/i] protect the alliance being absorbed for at least a small time, and the onus is absolutely on the raider to make sure first.

"Hey Monos Archein, are these nations that have been wearing the AA of your ally for 200 days under your protection?"

Seems pretty straightforward, definitely a step that should have been taken by someone following "an extremely high degree of due diligence".

[Penkala]

[quote name='MASTABADEY' timestamp='1280099038' post='2388851']
In a totally unrelated matter,

Care to explain to me why GOONS raided on one of my members in Spamalot if your alliance follows those rules? Our protectorate treaty was posted along with our DoE and I'm pretty damn sure that if one of your members came to our channel, we would have made it clear that we were protected. But hey, its the GOONS who ever considered you guys to be worthy of your word?
[/quote]

Because GOONS is fine with raiding aligned nations. All they need to do is stop the raid after their 2 attacks and walk away and say 'k our bad' then do it again the next day, get their tech, walk away and say 'k our bad' again. This has been going on for MONTHS. There are no consequences so why should they stop?

[Sarmatian Empire]

I could of sworn I remember the GOONS saying they weren't going to be like the formers GOONS...yet here we are...

I'm sorry, but I dont see why anyone is arguing any further. I ask someone from Team GOONS: Will you ever see and accept the views of Team Maroon? No? ok then. I ask someone from Team Maroon: Will you ever see and accept the views of Team GOONS? No? Ok then.

Seriously, no amount of arguing is going to convince the other side they are wrong and neither side cares about the other side enough to be hurt if their opinion is changed about them.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1280105679' post='2389059']
I would imagine that some of the raiders, one at least since his war declaration mentions it, had already sent peace. I assume the others, upon receiving a PM from the raided nation, also sent peace as is the custom of many tech raiders.
[/quote]
Oh! Well in [i]that case[/i] it's totally [i]finnnnnnnne[/i] that they raided a protected AA. Tomorrow they can go ahead and raid Polar but send peace right after 2 GAs and it'll be cool.

[Emporor]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1280109923' post='2389155']
Because GOONS is fine with raiding aligned nations. All they need to do is stop the raid after their 2 attacks and walk away and say 'k our bad' then do it again the next day, get their tech, walk away and say 'k our bad' again. This has been going on for MONTHS. There are no consequences so why should they stop?
[/quote]

That's because the cowards won't raid an alliance that would fight back.. I'm still waiting to see GOONS stand up to my challenge. I know it won't happen because they aren't completely ignorant, just mostly.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Emporor

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1280113854' post='2389209']
Oh! Well in [i]that case[/i] it's totally [i]finnnnnnnne[/i] that they raided a protected AA. Tomorrow they can go ahead and raid Polar but send peace right after 2 GAs and it'll be cool.
[/quote]

I thought you knew how to read.

EDIT For content: I was addressing Moridin's comments about GOONS changing their stance, not saying what you made out I did.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Ryuzaki

[Gravitate Rogue]

[quote name='Emporor' timestamp='1280114224' post='2389217']
That's because the cowards won't raid an alliance that would fight back.. I'm still waiting to see GOONS stand up to my challenge. I know it won't happen because they aren't completely ignorant, just mostly.
[/quote]

Holy crap stop your posturing. If you know it wont happen then shut up. This thread is not about you asking them to attack you.