The New Grämlins

[Haflinger]

Meanwhile looks like CT got bored.

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=115876&Extended=1

This war is turning ultra-bizarre by the day.

[Bob Janova]

Well that [i]is[/i] interesting. That must be an old grievance, the Resistance have not had anything to do with this situation.

[Charles the Great]

cant say I am upset at this turn of events.



stay strong IRON/DAWN

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='31 May 2010 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1275313974' post='2317717']
Well that [i]is[/i] interesting. That must be an old grievance, the Resistance have not had anything to do with this situation.
[/quote]
He appears to be defending one of his tech sellers flying the TR AA that is under attack by TR, with TR's reason being nonpayment of debts.

Yeahhhh.

[amad123]

[quote name='caligula' date='31 May 2010 - 03:07 AM' timestamp='1275289642' post='2317582']
Point(s) taken.I don't think either side can claim the other "started it." I did some reading...The DoW's were within 2 hours, and the Gramlins believed they were in the right to defend their allies. I call that a wash, because if we got into technicalities then people would ignore the greater message.
[/quote]
The fact that Gramlins and many other alliances were able to counter declare on IRON within hours clearly indicates that every major alliance knew what was about to happen before it did and that every major alliance had already decided to go to war before IRON declared. Gramlins and others would have needed a Government vote or decision and that I guarantee happened before IRON issued their DoW. Major wars like this don't happen spontaneously. Both sides line up their allies and decide whether they can win days if not weeks in advance then they decide to declare or not, all they need is the triggering event. In this case it was IRON & TOP declaring war. The war was bound to happen, everyone wanted it, however IRON & TOP miscalculated the strength of the other side or they guessed wrongly who was on the other side. But make no mistake, the fact that G&G and friends counter declared immediately shows that they were prepared and ready to attack IRON at a moment's notice. So by my call, a pre-emptive strike may have been the only chance of gaining an advantage in a war that was well underway before the first declaration occurred. If NpO had of advised IRON of their plans to surrender before IRON declared no doubt IRON would have not gone forward. That would not have prevented the war, only delayed it by a few weeks or months. It was inevitable, just like the next war will happen when people have rebuilt enough and get bored enough.

The lines are being drawn for the next war and sides are being chosen, however since in all likelihood IRON and DAWN will still be at war with the Gramlins, we will probably sit the next major war on the sidelines, much like NPO did for this one.

As far as reparations go if and when our war with Gramlin's ends and if the alliances we owe reps to are not involved in a major war at that time and if they still exist, then reps will be paid. Of course the reps will go to the alliances and who's to say that anyone that fought and is expecting reps will still be in the alliances that receive them. The way people move from alliance to alliance, the people sending and receiving reps may never even have fought in the war. Then again, if the war with Gramlins never ends the possibility that rep's may never be sent increases and GRamlins could do no bigger favour to IRON and DAWN then never surrendering.

My thanks to the new Gramlins, I can look forward to a round of war every month or so for the foreseeable future, that is far more interesting then collecting taxes and paying bills for the next year waiting for the next war to begin. Personally I'd like to see us take the "White Peace" offer off the table. This war with Gramlins is invaluable for training, I hope we drag it out for years to come. My nation won't exist forever but I have no intention of letting it be deleted while Gramlins exist. Without them I would not be having nearly as much fun, in fact I'm actually starting to like them in a unnatural sort of way. With "White Peace" on the table that could disappear at anytime, I really would like to see them send a Government Rep to IRON asking if it is still available. So IRON please consider withdrawing the standing offer, let Gramlins come and ask if it is still available.

[Delta1212]

It was less that everyone was prepared to counter-declare at a moment's notice as it was the fact that the information leaked several hours before your declaration giving ample time for C&G to scrape together an initial defense. Surprise attacks are less effective when they are not surprising.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Delta1212

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='amad123' date='31 May 2010 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1275321944' post='2317838']
The fact that Gramlins and many other alliances were able to counter declare on IRON within hours clearly indicates that every major alliance knew what was about to happen before it did and that every major alliance had already decided to go to war before IRON declared. Gramlins and others would have needed a Government vote or decision and that I guarantee happened before IRON issued their DoW. Major wars like this don't happen spontaneously. Both sides line up their allies and decide whether they can win days if not weeks in advance then they decide to declare or not, all they need is the triggering event. In this case it was IRON & TOP declaring war. The war was bound to happen, everyone wanted it, however IRON & TOP miscalculated the strength of the other side or they guessed wrongly who was on the other side. But make no mistake, the fact that G&G and friends counter declared immediately shows that they were prepared and ready to attack IRON at a moment's notice. So by my call, a pre-emptive strike may have been the only chance of gaining an advantage in a war that was well underway before the first declaration occurred. If NpO had of advised IRON of their plans to surrender before IRON declared no doubt IRON would have not gone forward. That would not have prevented the war, only delayed it by a few weeks or months. It was inevitable, just like the next war will happen when people have rebuilt enough and get bored enough.
[/quote]

I believe the original plan was for IRON to come in to defend the NSO against Fark, IRON discovered that they'd be dog-piled yet again by MHA-Gramlins (happened the first time in Karma), so IRON/TOP went back to the drawing boards of trying to find a way to go after their planned entry against C&G. Sparta came in via Athens/FoB, whereas Gramlins/MHA sort of just jumped in there.

Sounds a lot less conspicuous for IRON when put in that context, when Gramlins (and MHA) had it out for IRON the entire time, no?

[JimKongIl]

White peace is a moot point while Ramirus is leading Gramlins. He initiated a pm dialogue with me the day I joined IRON and every attempt at civility was met with insults and arrogance. I even offered to leave the IRON AA if Gramlins would agree to a temporary cease fire. His response was to call me a traitor, a !@#$%, an infra-hugger, and pathetic for leaving TOP well before the war, under a banner of peace and referred to me as a kid. Not once did I insult him. His avatar tag line, "With each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant" truly embodied his attitude in our discussions.

Diplomatically, he is completely unapproachable and the responsibility for the destruction of Gramlins lays squarely on his shoulders with a fanatically eager Matthew_PK and Ertyy committed to act upon his every wish. The fact that Ramirus was reelected by the Gramlins membership shows that they are willing to put their future in his hands. I know everyone is thinking "big surprise", but I just had to experience it for myself to come to this conclusion.

After further consideration, I rescind my suggestion that IRON/DAWN walk away from this war. Gramlins are an unpredictable alliance while Ramirus is in power and I would not trust in the fact that they would not attack IRON after IRON ceased attacks on Gramlins. That being said I do support the premise of focusing energy on the Gramlins nations actively attacking IRON/DAWN.
[b]
It is clear that CnG will never receive any reps from IRON/DAWN while Ramirus is in power[/b] because with him in charge they will never escape a banner of war.

I will remain under the IRON AA to help defend their top tier from Gramlins attacks as long as Gramlins keeps IRON in this war.

Certainly, IRON will need more 100K+ nations willing to defend to fend off Gramlins aggression. If you are willing to stand up for what is right and have the support of 95% of CN then please pm me or IRON leadership.

[Booter]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='31 May 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1275329649' post='2317971']
White peace is a moot point while Ramirus is leading Gramlins. He initiated a pm dialogue with me the day I joined IRON and every attempt at civility was met with insults and arrogance. I even offered to leave the IRON AA if Gramlins would agree to a temporary cease fire. His response was to call me a traitor, a !@#$%, an infra-hugger, and pathetic for leaving TOP well before the war, under a banner of peace and referred to me as a kid. Not once did I insult him. His avatar tag line, "With each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant" truly embodied his attitude in our discussions.

Diplomatically, he is completely unapproachable and the responsibility for the destruction of Gramlins lays squarely on his shoulders with a fanatically eager Matthew_PK and Ertyy committed to act upon his every wish. The fact that Ramirus was reelected by the Gramlins membership shows that they are willing to put their future in his hands. I know everyone is thinking "big surprise", but I just had to experience it for myself to come to this conclusion.

After further consideration, I rescind my suggestion that IRON/DAWN walk away from this war. Gramlins are an unpredictable alliance while Ramirus is in power and I would not trust in the fact that they would not attack IRON after IRON ceased attacks on Gramlins. That being said I do support the premise of focusing energy on the Gramlins nations actively attacking IRON/DAWN.
[b]
It is clear that CnG will never receive any reps from IRON/DAWN while Ramirus is in power[/b] because with him in charge they will never escape a banner of war.

I will remain under the IRON AA to help defend their top tier from Gramlins attacks as long as Gramlins keeps IRON in this war.

Certainly, IRON will need more 100K+ nations willing to defend to fend off Gramlins aggression. If you are willing to stand up for what is right and have the support of 95% of CN then please pm me or IRON leadership.
[/quote]

That sounds like Ram to me. I have seen logs of him talking down to people and referring to them as children when the person he is talking to is +30 years old.

[amad123]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='31 May 2010 - 02:14 PM' timestamp='1275329649' post='2317971']
White peace is a moot point while Ramirus is leading Gramlins. He initiated a pm dialogue with me the day I joined IRON and every attempt at civility was met with insults and arrogance.
[/quote]
You wouldn't by chance have logs of that conversation would you? I'm sure everyone would learn a lot by reading them if you were able to publish them. If they are not confidential I urge you to post them so that all can see who and what we are dealing with.

[Grimm Reaper]

[quote name='amad123' date='31 May 2010 - 03:40 PM' timestamp='1275334803' post='2318045']
You wouldn't by chance have logs of that conversation would you? I'm sure everyone would learn a lot by reading them if you were able to publish them. If they are not confidential I urge you to post them so that all can see who and what we are dealing with.
[/quote]

I do hope Chris Hansen reads them aloud.

[Clash]

Well, since Gremlins leadership apparently wants to war forever, perhaps IRON should just grant them that wish until further notice. Gremlins leadership certainly doesn't seem to want to negotiate reasonably. Any demand of payment from IRON is unreasonable at this point, imho. Why should IRON pay them anything at all? Regardless of what happened in the original CnG etc. wars, the outcome of this current war clearly says demand of payment by Gremlins is not justifiable.

This thread needs a wet bar.

[quote name='Grimm Reaper' date='31 May 2010 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1275335111' post='2318048']
I do hope Chris Hansen reads them aloud.
[/quote]
No no, Morgan Freeman!
The likeness between Gremlin's decisions and [i]March of the Penguins[/i] is uncanny.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Clash' date='31 May 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1275342613' post='2318157']

No no, Morgan Freeman!

[/quote]

Narration delivered in the smooth tones of Morgan Freeman makes everything seem better. The man could narrate the Apocalypse and there would be no panic.

Perhaps that is the solution? Get Morgan Freeman to negotiate on IRON's behalf. No one can resist that voice.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='31 May 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1275329649' post='2317971']
White peace is a moot point while Ramirus is leading Gramlins. He initiated a pm dialogue with me the day I joined IRON and every attempt at civility was met with insults and arrogance. I even offered to leave the IRON AA if Gramlins would agree to a temporary cease fire. His response was to call me a traitor, a !@#$%, an infra-hugger, and pathetic for leaving TOP well before the war, under a banner of peace and referred to me as a kid. Not once did I insult him. His avatar tag line, "With each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant" truly embodied his attitude in our discussions.

Diplomatically, he is completely unapproachable and the responsibility for the destruction of Gramlins lays squarely on his shoulders with a fanatically eager Matthew_PK and Ertyy committed to act upon his every wish. The fact that Ramirus was reelected by the Gramlins membership shows that they are willing to put their future in his hands. I know everyone is thinking "big surprise", but I just had to experience it for myself to come to this conclusion.

After further consideration, I rescind my suggestion that IRON/DAWN walk away from this war. Gramlins are an unpredictable alliance while Ramirus is in power and I would not trust in the fact that they would not attack IRON after IRON ceased attacks on Gramlins. That being said I do support the premise of focusing energy on the Gramlins nations actively attacking IRON/DAWN.
[b]
It is clear that CnG will never receive any reps from IRON/DAWN while Ramirus is in power[/b] because with him in charge they will never escape a banner of war.

I will remain under the IRON AA to help defend their top tier from Gramlins attacks as long as Gramlins keeps IRON in this war.

Certainly, IRON will need more 100K+ nations willing to defend to fend off Gramlins aggression. If you are willing to stand up for what is right and have the support of 95% of CN then please pm me or IRON leadership.
[/quote]

Keep up the good work man. p/ KJII

[Baldr]

[quote name='caligula' date='31 May 2010 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1275289642' post='2317582']
I think, then, that this now is more about how IRON would like to finish this. Through the scenario you've described with a slow knockout style affair, or pride is set aside and these two alliances who I've respected for quite some time reach an agreement that benefits them both without the aforementioned expensive process for either. I wish the latter, but as each day passes I'm beginning to think the former becomes more likely.[/quote]

Yes, it would be better for both sides to reach an agreement. But you are laying the blame for the lack of an agreement on IRON, when it's Gramlins who is making unreasonable demands.

Gramlins declared on IRON, not the other way around. Gramlins refuses to negotiate. Gramlins demands unconditional surrender, while IRON offers white peace.

You are talking about how IRON would like to end this as if they can do whatever they want and Gramlins has no choice. Gramlins are the ones refusing to let it end.

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='31 May 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1275329649' post='2317971']
[b]It is clear that CnG will never receive any reps from IRON/DAWN while Ramirus is in power[/b] because with him in charge they will never escape a banner of war.
[/quote]

I think IRON would be better off to pay the reps at some point. They are still at war, and not required to pay those reps until the war ends, but they are under terms until they pay the reps. If it were me, I wouldn't want to be under terms for any longer than necessary. The majority of IRON's membership doesn't have to worry much about Gramlins, being below range of the high-end Gramlins. The low end and mid-level Gramlins are pretty much in nuclear anarchy constantly, and therefore can't declare on anyone. So IRON could start moving reps, if they really wanted to.

shahenshah made a good point related to this earlier.

[quote name='shahenshah' date='31 May 2010 - 05:21 AM' timestamp='1275301269' post='2317640']
To: People indicating we should start the rep process or make a unilateral peace decision:
We simply cannot start the reps process as it would start the '6 month' timer - We'd still be at war, Gre would only need one blitz to seriously jeopardize and screw up the time-frame which can lead to a situation where our terms would be deemed broken by the hegemony sparking a one sided curbstomp, maybe even of global level.[/quote]

I agree that if you simply "declared the war over" and started paying reps, the timer would start, and if Gramlins managed to do something that kept you from completing the reps on time, you might have repercussions. And I think you would be foolish to say "Hey, the war is over". What are you going to do, bring all the big nations out of peace mode and trust Gramlins to just leave them alone? That would pretty clearly be a mistake.

However, if you start sending reps, but do not declare the war over, would that start the timer? I'm not sure it would. I am also reasonably confident that if you talked to the alliances who you owe reps to, that they would be agreeable to you starting to send reps now, with the timer only starting when the war ended. That would seem better for them than saying "No, once you start sending, the timer starts" knowing that would mean you wouldn't start sending until the war with Gramlins is concluded.

Another possibility might be an agreement to modify the timer.

Those you owe reps to would probably like to get them, so they have incentive to work with you on terms that would allow you to pay.

Regardless, I'm not convinced IRON should wait until Gramlins is completely destroyed before paying reps. And all signs are that Gramlins will continue the war until they are destroyed.

[SynthFG]

[quote name='KainIIIC' date='31 May 2010 - 06:22 PM' timestamp='1275326534' post='2317899']
I believe the original plan was for IRON to come in to defend the NSO against Fark, IRON discovered that they'd be dog-piled yet again by MHA-Gramlins (happened the first time in Karma), so IRON/TOP went back to the drawing boards of trying to find a way to go after their planned entry against C&G. Sparta came in via Athens/FoB, whereas Gramlins/MHA sort of just jumped in there.

Sounds a lot less conspicuous for IRON when put in that context, when Gramlins (and MHA) had it out for IRON the entire time, no?
[/quote]
The first parts fairly accurate
The info I had when I went to bed that night at update -6 was that IRON would hit FARK,
Gre were ordered to stand to at update ready to respond,

At update -1 (5am local) I got up to co-ordiante a response, on my way down I got an international text message from Matt PK alerting me that something was moving,
After logging in I was bought up to date on the situation and had a very busy 45 mins organising Gre mil, getting the gov vote from the rest of Gre and co-ordinating with MHA who were sorting out there own vote
So yes we were sitting ready to counter any move IRON made, we could not stand aside and allow freinds in Superfreinds or CnG to be burned by TOP/IRON and the group they were putting together, but we only moved after IRON did, had they sat this one out then so would we have


As for the last part, once again tho, Gre went in in support of MK who were still considered allies even tho all the paper had been torn up, this was made very clear in the announcement of the paperless FA and was re-itterated privatly to many people including members of TOP gov at the time it was being worked out

[Bob Janova]

[quote]I think IRON would be better off to pay the reps at some point. They are still at war, and not required to pay those reps until the war ends, but they are under terms until they pay the reps.[/quote]
But the terms are very light apart from the reps – being 'under terms' isn't the hardship that it usually is. I see no reason why you'd want to divert aid slots away from internal rebuilding and growth programmes until you are forced by terms to do so.

[PhysicsJunky]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='01 June 2010 - 08:12 AM' timestamp='1275394360' post='2319013']I see no reason why you'd want to divert aid slots away from internal rebuilding and growth programmes until you are forced by terms to do so.[/quote]
I think there would be substantial dividends repaid in public relations if they were to divert a small portion of their slots toward repayment. It would help them capitalize some of the negative PR the Gramlins are generating by holding the repayments up into positive PR for IRON. It's one of those scenarios that with some finesse they could reap dividends from a trivial expenditure; the opportunity cost lost on a small fraction of the aid slots being used early. It's arguably even less than that, as there is some cost incurred in future options by having a large fraction of their slots tied up once this war ends, which could be mitigated by whittling it down now (which matters at the margins even if it makes little sense to whittle it down for it's own sake). I agree with you for the most part though.

[janax]

If you start the clock and can't follow through because Ramirus decides to finish off the Gremlins with a suicide run, you run the risk of not finishing the payments in time.

It's a tough call.

[RustyNail]

Terms could always be suspended if that happens though. It really is up to the parties to work that out. The possibilities are endless if they try.

[PhysicsJunky]

[quote name='janax' date='01 June 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1275407360' post='2319182']
If you start the clock and can't follow through because Ramirus decides to finish off the Gremlins with a suicide run, you run the risk of not finishing the payments in time.[/quote]

I find it difficult to believe that alliances that have deferred the payments at their own loss would punish IRON for paying them early. I would take it as understood that if IRON was told reps were deffered until the end of their conflict that's when the official clock would start. This game does surprise me on occasion though.

[Style #386]

[quote name='janax' date='01 June 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1275407360' post='2319182']
If you start the clock and can't follow through because Ramirus decides to finish off the Gremlins with a suicide run, you run the risk of not finishing the payments in time.

It's a tough call.
[/quote]
I would personally advocate some leniency in that instance.

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='Style #386' date='01 June 2010 - 11:24 AM' timestamp='1275409446' post='2319247']
I would personally advocate some leniency in that instance.
[/quote]

If CnG were to publicly declare leniency in regards to the time line, considering IRON is still stuck in a state of war, and IRON gov authorizes it, I would be willing to commit my aid slots to start helping IRON pay reps. But, again this is IRON gov's call and pending authorization by CnG.

[RePePe]

I'll be updating stats. Not sure why, but I will.

[img]http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8526/gramlinsstats.jpg[/img]

Gremlins, are you down, down, down, down, down? Down....Down...Even when the sky is falling...

That will be all.

[Grimm Reaper]

[quote name='Baldr' date='01 June 2010 - 02:48 AM' timestamp='1275374881' post='2318862']I think IRON would be better off to pay the reps at some point. They are still at war, and not required to pay those reps until the war ends, but they are under terms until they pay the reps. [b]If it were me, I wouldn't want to be under terms for any longer than necessary.[/b] The majority of IRON's membership doesn't have to worry much about Gramlins, being below range of the high-end Gramlins. The low end and mid-level Gramlins are pretty much in nuclear anarchy constantly, and therefore can't declare on anyone. So IRON could start moving reps, if they really wanted to.[/quote]

I think there's some confusion here. The only terms of our surrender were to admit defeat and pay reparations.

That's it. No inhibitions on foreign policy, no decommed military like the Karma War or, well, every war before that. They're really quite generous, given the circumstances.

So it's not as if these terms are imposing a gigantic onus on us. Moreover, the risks of starting the timer too early and being unable to pay far outweigh the benefits of being out of surrender terms.

Just cost/benefit analysis.

EDIT: This is not to say, however, that we don't want to get reps out of the way. Not speaking for IRON Government, but I do want to get these reps out of the way so that we can actually rebuild.

Also EDIT: While I imagine that CnG would show leniency if the terms were offered, relying on leniency is something I don't even want to think about. Not only is it bad form diplomatically, it could also come back to bite you if you expected it and did not receive it. That's a position I simply to not want to be put into. Still not speaking for IRON Government, by the way.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Grimm Reaper