The New Grämlins

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='17 May 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1274123815' post='2301390']
Chit chatting with an FH member, it appears to them that IRON has DOW'd Gramlins! The evidence is that FH nations keep getting DOWed by IRON! Ram has complete support of the [obligatory spell error] meatshileds! And FH shall push for Reps on IRON ;/

Note: That was by chatting with one member who appeared as if he spoke for FH.
[/quote]

Someone should perhaps direct them to [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2139526"]Gramlins DoW on IRON[/url], eh?

Since no violation of terms could be said to have occurred, Gramlins supporters should be invited to sit quietly afterward.

EDIT: I mean it would be a simple matter of finding the names of the former FH members and sending them a very polite note, saluting their valor, giving them the link, and suggesting they go to the forums and see for themselves. Nothing more or less.

[color="#C0C0C0"]bathala bino
Sheba
ares15281
han fei zi
Emperor Mikhail
Rijmun Caesar
southsidehood08
Stargirl
tindahan ni arnel
Libid21
frickazoid
Lakan
PhilippineEagle
Tedqu Lasan
Ricky Maru[/color]

I'm in no way encouraging anyone to do that by the way.

Edited May 18, 2010 by ChairmanHal

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='18 May 2010 - 05:29 AM' timestamp='1274178528' post='2302064']
You'll just get the "IRON believes in might makes right" response from MatthewPK. This is their new line since we won't play their game. The fact is we rejected this farce when Gramlins were still in a dominant position compared to us (and were told it was due to our fear), we reject it now (and are told its due to might makes right), and we'll reject it no matter what (at some point we'll be told we're trying to destroy the Gramlins entirely). This is absolutely not about might makes right, to us it's right makes right and therefore we're taking a stand based upon our belief that no alliance should surrender unconditionally; period.

The other underlying theme of theirs is that we don't believe what we did was wrong since we won't play their game. It's not about that either, we reject the Gramlins self-appointed position of judge and jury. They may say they are trying to do right here, but I think most of us are smart enough to see through this.
[/quote]
The sad thing is, as ridiculous as "IRON and DAWN forced Gramlins to disband by not surrendering to them unconditionally!" sounds, I won't be shocked if we start to hear that a few months down the line.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='18 May 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1274140998' post='2301673']
FH are, as their name implies, largely Filipino, and I think many of them don't speak English to the level needed to wade through the crap of these boards or diplomatic chat with other alliances. It's not surprising that they're getting their information internally ... and what's left of Grämlins is probably living in something of a delusional parallel universe internally by now.
[/quote]
I think you would be pleasantly surprised how widespread the English language is in the Philippines, we were afterall ruled by the Americans for 48 years and the United States has left a considerable influence on society over there.

That said it would not surprise me that they are by and large discounting the OWF as a hostile source of info and thus are relying on internal sources.

[Coursca]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 May 2010 - 02:30 AM' timestamp='1274164209' post='2302012']
I fear the same thing you do. I suspect we'll end up at war because of it on [s]your (and [/s]my[s])[/s] way down.[/quote]

I fixed that for you.

You're the only ones paying for this and you will continue to do so until you give up the goose, so to speak.

Or...you guys can always be brought down to under 10 members and see where that takes you -- your current trajectory makes this scenario quite believable.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='bigwoody' date='18 May 2010 - 10:37 AM' timestamp='1274193453' post='2302153']
The sad thing is, as ridiculous as "IRON and DAWN forced Gramlins to disband by not surrendering to them unconditionally!" sounds, I won't be shocked if we start to hear that a few months down the line.
[/quote]
It's no more stupid than the idea that CnG became the aggressor in the past war when IRON and TOP started losing.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Cataduanes' date='18 May 2010 - 10:45 AM' timestamp='1274193925' post='2302156']
I think you would be pleasantly surprised how widespread the English language is in the Philippines, we were afterall ruled by the Americans for 48 years and the United States has left a considerable influence on society over there.

That said it would not surprise me that they are by and large discounting the OWF as a hostile source of info and thus are relying on internal sources.
[/quote]

Which is why I think they need to read Ram's own words and who declared war on whom, and not simply be "talked down from the bell tower". I and many others could waste our breath reasoning with them, or they can be shown the truth and come to their own conclusions. I seriously doubt they'd have trouble finding a protector if they wanted to split from Gramlins at this point and let remaining Gramlins meet their fate.

You can't be honor bound by a falsehood.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='18 May 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1274196075' post='2302171']
It's no more stupid than the idea that CnG became the aggressor in the past war when IRON and TOP started losing.
[/quote]

I don't recall that ever being said. What was said was that IRON, TOP, and company engaged in a preemptive strike against C&G in the belief that C&G was going to engage in hostile actions against them in the future. The rationale being that picking your fight now is better than defending against them later.

Thing about preemptive strikes though, you'd best win...the alternative is what you saw happen.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='18 May 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1274196508' post='2302174']
I don't recall that ever being said.
[/quote]
It was.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='18 May 2010 - 11:36 AM' timestamp='1274196988' post='2302178']
It was.
[/quote]
By who?

[Delta1212]

[quote name='BlkAK47002' date='18 May 2010 - 12:10 PM' timestamp='1274199022' post='2302198']
By who?
[/quote]
A whole lot of people. The argument was that after TOP and company discovered they were losing, they offered white peace. This meant that C&G could end the war at any point, so their refusal to do so meant that they were now the aggressors.

[Bob Janova]

It's pretty off topic, but I don't actually remember anyone saying that. What several people (like me!) were saying is that C&G [i]chose to continue the war[/i] when they did not have to do so, and imposed harsh peace terms – which amounts to acting aggressively, not being the legal aggressors in the war (which indeed was never true). But just because they were legally defending doesn't mean that everything they did was automatically golden.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='18 May 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1274199287' post='2302201']
A whole lot of people. The argument was that after TOP and company discovered they were losing, they offered white peace. This meant that C&G could end the war at any point, so their refusal to do so meant that they were now the aggressors.
[/quote]
"Alot of people" isn't a very viable source

[quote name='Delta1212' date='18 May 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1274199287' post='2302201']
so their refusal to do so meant that they were now the aggressors.
[/quote]

That may be you view from the otherside of the fence. There were many nasty things that people called CnG. Some relating to parts of the body. As for people calling them aggressors, perhaps their comments were misinterpreted.

[shilo]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='18 May 2010 - 06:23 PM' timestamp='1274199770' post='2302207']
It's pretty off topic, but I don't actually remember anyone saying that. What several people (like me!) were saying is that C&G [i]chose to continue the war[/i] when they did not have to do so, and imposed harsh peace terms – which amounts to acting aggressively, not being the legal aggressors in the war (which indeed was never true). But just because they were legally defending doesn't mean that everything they did was automatically golden.
[/quote]
That is all I too remember in terms of" CnG beeing aggressors". I don't think anyone from those alliances that declared the preemptive war on CnG believes that wouldn't make it an aggressive war on our part. I certainly never had a doubt that this is the case when DAWN declared together with IRON.

[wenwillthisend]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='19 May 2010 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1274192223' post='2302143']
Someone should perhaps direct them to [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461&view=findpost&p=2139526"]Gramlins DoW on IRON[/url], eh?

Since no violation of terms could be said to have occurred, Gramlins supporters should be invited to sit quietly afterward.

EDIT: I mean it would be a simple matter of finding the names of the former FH members and sending them a very polite note, saluting their valor, giving them the link, and suggesting they go to the forums and see for themselves. Nothing more or less.

[color="#C0C0C0"]bathala bino
Sheba
ares15281
han fei zi
Emperor Mikhail
Rijmun Caesar
southsidehood08
Stargirl
tindahan ni arnel
Libid21
frickazoid
Lakan
PhilippineEagle
Tedqu Lasan
Ricky Maru[/color]

I'm in no way encouraging anyone to do that by the way.
[/quote]


Just a quick note there, Han Fei zi was not FH, he is and was Gre before the merge

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='wenwillthisend' date='18 May 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1274207310' post='2302286']
Just a quick note there, Han Fei zi was not FH, he is and was Gre before the merge
[/quote]

Though Han Fei Zi will always by my Filipino Hero

[Baldr]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 May 2010 - 01:30 AM' timestamp='1274164209' post='2302012']
I think it has also become more and more evident that people are less and less interested in clarification or understanding GRE's position.
There are some here who actually do understand what we're after and still disagree; but they are few and far between (and I am grateful for their diligent efforts to resolve the matter!)[/quote]

I think your position is quite clear. IRON must give you unconditional surrender, demilitarize, and follow any subsequent demands from Gramlins. If they do not agree to follow the terms you give them after the surrender, then everything will go back to war.

You say that the post-surrender terms you will give them will be reasonable, but they would have to take that on faith, since you are unwilling to disclose those terms prior to them surrendering.

You've made that pretty clear.

I don't think the problem is that people don't understand what you want. The problem is that you are in no position to force IRON into it, IRON doesn't trust you, and the vast majority of the people in other alliances believe that Gramlins are behaving in an unreasonable manner.

[quote]I contend that most of the others are unwilling to listen to what has been said and have little desire to understand what this war is about.[/quote]

Of course you do. But it's not true. I've listened. I've read every dang post in this huge thread. You've had plenty of options to explain yourself, and I think I understand your requirements. I just think you are wrong. I think saying "Unconditional surrender or war forever" is the same thing as "become our slaves or we'll be at war forever". I don't think alliances should ever give unconditional surrender, or that other alliances should try to force it on them.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 May 2010 - 07:11 AM' timestamp='1274184700' post='2302098']
when you go around and call your enemy a criminal, terrorist, threat to all the cyberverse, you kind of ensure that they will not listen to you. your clarity is no longer sought because you refuse to be clear. Thus, this war will continue until Gremlins gives up its entire stance. [/quote]

Cowards. You forgot that one. IRON are cowards for choosing war over slavery. Or so say the Gramlins.

[Wabooz]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 May 2010 - 01:41 PM' timestamp='1274208046' post='2302293']
Though Han Fei Zi will always by my Filipino Hero
[/quote]
Ask him if he's still dishing it out like King Kong? Get back to us with the answer, please. Thanks.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='18 May 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1274196168' post='2302172']
Which is why I think they need to read Ram's own words and who declared war on whom, and not simply be "talked down from the bell tower". I and many others could waste our breath reasoning with them, or they can be shown the truth and come to their own conclusions. I seriously doubt they'd have trouble finding a protector if they wanted to split from Gramlins at this point and let remaining Gramlins meet their fate.

You can't be honor bound by a falsehood.
[/quote]
I have tried to reach out but to no avail....

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 May 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1274208046' post='2302293']
Though Han Fei Zi will always by my Filipino Hero
[/quote]
Han does indeed rock, as does Bathala

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Coursca' date='18 May 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1274194827' post='2302163']
I fixed that for you.

You're the only ones paying for this and you will continue to do so until you give up the goose, so to speak.

Or...you guys can always be brought down to under 10 members and see where that takes you -- your current trajectory makes this scenario quite believable.
[/quote]

I'm waiting for the hilarity that will ensue when they drop below the numbers required by some of the raiding alliances. A "tech raid pm for peace" at 100+k would be utter hilarity.

[Bob Janova]

Those raiders are generally too wimpy to take on a large nation that would fight back ... several ex-TOP and ex-Grämlin nations have sat on None for extended periods in the top tier in the last few months and none of them were hit.

[Coursca]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='18 May 2010 - 06:00 PM' timestamp='1274220016' post='2302469']
I'm waiting for the hilarity that will ensue when they drop below the numbers required by some of the raiding alliances. A "tech raid pm for peace" at 100+k would be utter hilarity.
[/quote]

I would probably lol quite hard, as a matter of fact.

Maybe GPA could get in on it given their 30 nations in the top 250.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Coursca' date='18 May 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1274225861' post='2302539']
I would probably lol quite hard, as a matter of fact.
[/quote]

Ahh it just occurred to me, most of the raiding alliances who go after AA's also limit it to people without treaties, still an amusing thought anyway.

[Coursca]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='18 May 2010 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1274229079' post='2302604']
Ahh it just occurred to me, most of the raiding alliances who go after AA's also limit it to people without treaties, still an amusing thought anyway.
[/quote]

The gRAMlins technically don't have any treaties.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Coursca' date='18 May 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1274230405' post='2302627']
The gRAMlins technically don't have any treaties.
[/quote]

not true. The Härmlin Accords is still active.

[Iamrecognized]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='18 May 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1274232012' post='2302655']
not true. The Härmlin Accords is still active.
[/quote]

Quite true. While I personally don't support the current situation (like many in MHA), we still have that treaty, and as long as it is active, it's active.

And (and this is directed to people in general) don't tell us to cancel it, you'd complain if we did that too.