Death Before Dishonour

[DesertSon]

[quote name='Treborprime' date='16 February 2010 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1266333954' post='2185591']
Ok I will play this game with you.

which one in particular?

The IP screenshot initially submitted by Veneke. Which we originally took at face value?

Or the internal command board? In order to fake something like that there would be a lot of pix-elation distortion. You would lose quality from the original screenshot and there is no graphic editor out there that can overcome these issues [u][b]totally[/b][/u]. I see no [u][b]discernible distortion[/b][/u] in the image. If someone created and manipulated an image than well I take my hat off to them. If that is the case someone still needs access to a base image to manipulate ( sorry can't do that from scratch ). The question still begs to differ who from the 57th took that screenshot? Still though I see no way how the command board image could have been faked. I can definitely see how the IP images could be misinterpreted.

One observation on the IP screenshots - the distortion shown in the IP screenshots is [u][b]inconsistent[/b][/u] with JPEG compression. You should have uniform distortion throughout the image and not just around the text. It looks like someone did a bad job matching the color around the text. *shrugs*

The command board screenshot seems to be imo the only valid thing in this whole mess. I imagine that would make just about any leader in this game angry. What happens afterwards... that I guess is the real debate here?
[/quote]

I think you need to get in contact with your own leadership as even they have all but conceded that the supposed screen shot from our forums is a poor fake. A quick browse through the logs from day one of the talks will show you that as well. I will thank you though for helping point out that the other screen shot is fake as well, you might want to bring that concern up to your leaders while you are talking to them.

[Treborprime]

[quote name='SWAT128' date='16 February 2010 - 09:43 AM' timestamp='1266335027' post='2185620']
The one of the Veneke post one is fake because it doesn't conform to the format of the 57th forums. There is supposed to be a larger gap between where his post ends and the signature spacer is. Read the GLOF DoW topic and you'll see that it's faked.
[/quote]

We have a comparable screenshot taken before Feb 10th? Which board software do they use? It would be easy enough to verify.

In a situation like this "[b]supposed[/b]" isn't good enough.

[Treborprime]

[quote name='DesertSon' date='16 February 2010 - 09:50 AM' timestamp='1266335416' post='2185629']
I think you need to get in contact with your own leadership as even they have all but conceded that the supposed screen shot from our forums is a poor fake. A quick browse through the logs from day one of the talks will show you that as well. I will thank you though for helping point out that the other screen shot is fake as well, you might want to bring that concern up to your leaders while you are talking to them.
[/quote]

If the other screenshot is fake then that doesn't sit well for the 57th does it? Since well that is what Veneke presented to GLOF for having Iyeman expelled from the Lodge.

Either way there is questionable content with this whole issue. I do not believe the command board to be a fake. [u][b]But that just like everything else in this thread is an opinion.[/b][/u]

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Treborprime' date='16 February 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1266333954' post='2185591']
Ok I will play this game with you.

which one in particular?

The IP screenshot initially submitted by Veneke. Which we originally took at face value?

Or the internal command board? In order to fake something like that there would be a lot of pix-elation distortion. You would lose quality from the original screenshot and there is no graphic editor out there that can overcome these issues [u][b]totally[/b][/u]. I see no [u][b]discernible distortion[/b][/u] in the image. If someone created and manipulated an image than well I take my hat off to them. If that is the case someone still needs access to a base image to manipulate ( sorry can't do that from scratch ). The question still begs to differ who from the 57th took that screenshot? Still though I see no way how the command board image could have been faked. I can definitely see how the IP images could be misinterpreted.

One observation on the IP screenshots - the distortion shown in the IP screenshots is [u][b]inconsistent[/b][/u] with JPEG compression. You should have uniform distortion throughout the image and not just around the text. It looks like someone did a bad job matching the color around the text. *shrugs*

The command board screenshot seems to be imo the only valid thing in this whole mess. I imagine that would make just about any leader in this game angry. What happens afterwards... that I guess is the real debate here?
[/quote]

here you go Treborprime

[img]http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7313/treborprime.png[/img]

[SWAT128]

[quote name='Treborprime' date='16 February 2010 - 07:50 AM' timestamp='1266335417' post='2185630']
We have a comparable screenshot taken before Feb 10th? Which board software do they use? It would be easy enough to verify.

In a situation like this "[b]supposed[/b]" isn't good enough.
[/quote]


You're exactly right, supposed isn't good enough. Which is why your alliance shouldn't have gone to war with this evidence.

I'm not sure when these were taken but the dates of the posts are from last year.

[url]http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=80702&view=findpost&p=2179858[/url]

Edited February 16, 2010 by SWAT128

[DesertSon]

[quote name='Treborprime' date='16 February 2010 - 09:55 AM' timestamp='1266335733' post='2185633']

Either way there is questionable content with this whole issue. [/quote]

Everyone's point entirely, and our former ally attacked us over very questionable content.

EDIT TO CLARIFY EARLIER STATEMENT: The screen shots even your leadership has doubts about are those that are supposed to be of a topic on our forums.

Edited February 16, 2010 by DesertSon

[janax]

You are welcome GLoF

[Treborprime]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='16 February 2010 - 09:56 AM' timestamp='1266335775' post='2185634']
here you go Treborprime

[img]http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7313/treborprime.png[/img]
[/quote]

lol ok Good one

Thank you for proof of concept. I can see some question around Rebel Virginia - nice btw. Did a good job on the water-board and awesome. Not so good on chickin. But a very passable fake. Would be nice to try this on something other than a white background? Png format is your friend and does not suffer the same problems as other graphic formats. The command board screenshot fake or not is in JPEG format and does not have a white background. It may seem trivial but it is important when trying to detect pixel issues around modified text.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Treborprime

[Treborprime]

[quote name='DesertSon' date='16 February 2010 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1266336260' post='2185647']
Everyone's point entirely, and our former ally attacked us over very questionable content.

EDIT TO CLARIFY EARLIER STATEMENT: The screen shots even your leadership has doubts about are those that are supposed to be of a topic on our forums.
[/quote]


I think its quite clear that yes this is a mess. I will concede the concern and opinion voiced in this thread. I am but a peon . I hope it all works out. After all I can log off of CN and not care at the end of the day. I just do not appreciate the paintbrush tone being used in this thread.

Have a good day.

[Bower3aj]

I don't even know why the screen shot of Veneke's post is being talked about. It's not our CB. The screen shot with the IP addresses is.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Treborprime' date='16 February 2010 - 09:49 PM' timestamp='1266337180' post='2185673']
lol ok Good one

Thank you for proof of concept. I can see some question around Rebel Virginia - nice btw. Did a good job on the water-board and awesome. Not so good on chickin. But a very passable fake. Would be nice to try this on something other than a white background? Png format is your friend and does not suffer the same problems as other graphic formats. The command board screenshot fake or not is in JPEG format and does not have a white background. It may seem trivial but it is important when trying to detect pixel issues around modified text.
[/quote]

Ok colored background, sigh.. you make me work so hard.

[URL=http://img175.imageshack.us/i/fromgovareas.png/][IMG]http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2891/fromgovareas.th.png[/IMG][/URL] <===png

[URL=http://img15.imageshack.us/i/fromgovareas.gif/][IMG]http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3861/fromgovareas.th.gif[/IMG][/URL] <=== gif

[URL=http://img519.imageshack.us/i/fromgovareas.jpg/][IMG]http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7541/fromgovareas.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL] <=== jpg

As i said elsewhere, in another place regarding this mess, screenshots really are not proof of anything. Like the above screenshots, allegedly from the super secret government chambers of the lodge, clearly if this is proof of wrong doing, then you guys are in deep !@#$. Thankfully it is just a screenie and not really proof of anything.

[SWAT128]

[quote name='Bower3aj' date='16 February 2010 - 08:27 AM' timestamp='1266337665' post='2185682']
I don't even know why the screen shot of Veneke's post is being talked about. It's not our CB. The screen shot with the IP addresses is.
[/quote]

It's still a terrible CB either way.

[Roosterton]

[quote name='Bower3aj' date='16 February 2010 - 08:27 AM' timestamp='1266337665' post='2185682']
I don't even know why the screen shot of Veneke's post is being talked about. It's not our CB. The screen shot with the IP addresses is.
[/quote]

Uh yes, it actually is your CB. Because until your .gov got their hands on/forged that screenshot, they were in full agreement with us that Iyeman was a spy.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Roosterton

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Roosterton' date='16 February 2010 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1266338466' post='2185703']
Uh yes, it actually is your CB. Because until your .gov got their hands on/forged that screenshot, they were in full agreement with us that Iyeman was a spy.
[/quote]

For $%&@ sake, this thing is a mess enough as it is without you in here throwing such ridiculous allegations around. Ok, now GLOF forged a screenshot so they could attack their own ally?

I hope this mess gets sorted out and quick, it's gone quite far enough.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Mayzie' date='16 February 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1266338912' post='2185719']
I hope this mess gets sorted out and quick, it's gone quite far enough.
[/quote]


I hope so too, however i am thinking it is improbable for these two to part amicably. Scars in the back dont usually heal very well, specially stab wounds.

[Haflinger]

I can't follow this mess at all. It all sounds like Browncoats drama. God I hate that stuff. It does remind me a bit of these girls though.
[img]http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/6865/11426539447096jv.jpg[/img]
That pic is for you, Locke.

[uisge beatha]

[quote name='Mayzie' date='16 February 2010 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1266338912' post='2185719']
For $%&@ sake, this thing is a mess enough as it is without you in here throwing such ridiculous allegations around. Ok, now GLOF forged a screenshot so they could attack their own ally?

I hope this mess gets sorted out and quick, it's gone quite far enough.
[/quote]

agree with Mayz, I hope this can be sorted out quickly. however someone did fake that Screen shot of Ven and handed it over to GLOF with the intention of causing bad blood/war. So i think most would like to find out who actually did hand that faked forum post to GLOF.

Anyway i do hope somehow out of all of this mess some form of agreement and peace be reached.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Treborprime' date='16 February 2010 - 11:24 AM' timestamp='1266337489' post='2185679']
I think its quite clear that yes this is a mess. I will concede the concern and opinion voiced in this thread. I am but a peon . I hope it all works out. After all I can log off of CN and not care at the end of the day. I just do not appreciate the paintbrush tone being used in this thread.

Have a good day.
[/quote]

You are not a peon, you are a member of an alliance thats leadership has attacked its allies in what has been condemed by one of the widest spectrum of leaders across Planet Bob that I have ever seen. You and your fellow members are the power in your alliance. If your leadership has failed you and put you at war with your allies then you need to fix that. And if attacking your allies for no reason does not bother you then keep in mind that GLoF will pay for what it has done. People remember things like this and when this great war is over GLoF will have target on its back. Your leadership has failed you and placed your entire alliance in danger. I do not know if they are completely incompetent or if they have an agenda. Either way you and your fellow members have the power to force them to end this and pay for the damage they have done or remove them from power if they refuse. You know GLoF is wrong, the question is do you care enough to do anything about it.

Edited February 16, 2010 by The Big Bad

[Locke]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='16 February 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1266340276' post='2185741']
I can't follow this mess at all. It all sounds like Browncoats drama. God I hate that stuff. It does remind me a bit of these girls though.
[img]http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/6865/11426539447096jv.jpg[/img]
That pic is for you, Locke.
[/quote]
Aww, how thoughtful.

[obscurus]

We are again talking about that SECOND SS.

Too bad that the CB is not about the second SS, but about the first - the one with the shopped IP number, as people from the Lodge (and whatnot) already have stated - ad nauseam - in several posts.

And those "friends stabbed in the back", as some have depicted the 57th, are the same friends who have been helped just one month ago in the Browncoat fiasco, and the same friends to whom the Lodge members - myself included - have donated more than 100 millions bucks to help them after their war. And those are facts, not alleged or real photoshop jobs.

But those are - obviously - ancillary speculations which do not count against the One True Truth of Some: that the Lodge is a gang of bullies out there to backstab their closest friends.

And I quote uisge: hope that this mess gets sorted soon, although I am not sure that the trolls who feast here will allow that.

Edited February 16, 2010 by obscurus

[Theoroshia]

[quote]But those are - obviously - ancillary speculations which do not count against the One True Truth of Some: that the Lodge is a gang of bullies out there to backstab their closest friends. [/quote]
I never thought you guys would admit it.

[DesertSon]

[quote name='obscurus' date='16 February 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1266344848' post='2185847']
We are again talking about that SECOND SS.

Too bad that the CB is not about the second SS, but about the first - the one with the shopped IP number, as people from the Lodge (and whatnot) already have stated - ad nauseam - in several posts.

And those "friends stabbed in the back", as some have depicted the 57th, are the same friends who have been helped just one month ago in the Browncoat fiasco, and the same friends to whom the Lodge members - myself included - have donated more tha 100 millions bucks to help them after their war. And those are facts, not alleged or real photoshop jobs.

But those are - obviously - ancillary speculations which do not count against the One True Truth osf Some: that the Lodge is a gang of bullies out there to backstab their closest friends.

And I quote uisge: hope that this mess gets sorted soon, although I am not sure that the trolls who feast here will allow that.
[/quote]

Obscurus is correct, The 57th and GLoF were friends and allies. The Lodge did aid The 57th after the BC war and it was much appreciated. In fact I will even state that one of GLoF's other allies (NV) help negotiate that peace, which is also appreciated. We have been friends and allies for longer than I have taken any interest in the external dealings of the alliance. It is for this very reason that I was absolutely shell shocked when I logged into my nation the other night to see I had been attacked by our own friends. It is for this reason that I was completely taken aback that no one had made any serious effort to contact a member of government and come to a resolution other than the one that GLoF decided to pursue.

Lastly I will say that of course all parties wish for this to come to peaceful end soon, however The 57th did not send forged documents to GLoF and will not admit to such in order to bring about that peace.

[Heft]

No one declares war over just screenshots any more. It's generally frowned upon and accepted that while a screenshot may be valuable intel and might constitute evidence, it is not by itself a smoking gun, ever. There are two basic reasons for this:

1. Screenshots are exceptionally easy to fake, especially of forum posts.
2. Screenshots are exceptionally easy to [i]claim[/i] as being fake.

Put those two together and you end up with screenshots being notoriously unreliable.

Why anyone would ever think "Some of the pixels appear to be distorted differently" would actually fly as a CB is beyond me.

[bagpuss]

[quote name='obscurus' date='16 February 2010 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1266344848' post='2185847']
We are again talking about that SECOND SS.

Too bad that the CB is not about the second SS, but about the first - the one with the shopped IP number, as people from the Lodge (and whatnot) already have stated - ad nauseam - in several posts.

And those "friends stabbed in the back", as some have depicted the 57th, are the same friends who have been helped just one month ago in the Browncoat fiasco, and the same friends to whom the Lodge members - myself included - have donated more than 100 millions bucks to help them after their war. And those are facts, not alleged or real photoshop jobs.

But those are - obviously - ancillary speculations which do not count against the One True Truth of Some: that the Lodge is a gang of bullies out there to backstab their closest friends.

And I quote uisge: hope that this mess gets sorted soon, although I am not sure that the trolls who feast here will allow that.
[/quote]

GLOF weren't the only alliance to both help and aid the 57th over the Browncoats fiasco. Scorcher sat in on the peace negotations and Silence shipped at least $100 mill aid probably too.

One of the main issues, i think you'll find, is the fact that you went from a MDoAP ally to declaring war on 57th without even bothering to attempt to talk to Ven, or any other 57th govt member. Yes I'm aware you tried to catch Ven for a few hours before the DoW but considering Ven is in Ireland and it was the middle of the night its hardly surprising you got no response, also Ven said the query was at 5am with the DoW 42 mins later. There was nothing in the DoW that meant you had to declare then and there, the 57th were at war at the time. You could easily of tried to get hold of Ven via IRC or the 57th's forum in the following days whilst establishing what is fake and what is merely artifacts of a crappy jpeg ffile size shrinking algorithm.

I know full well the screenshot supposedly of Ven posting on the 57ths forum is fake as two of our guys made their own ake in oh about 10 mins the other day. The IP address one has certain inconsistencies which is what is causing the problems. Whether its cos it was faked or due to the jpeg file is open to debate but as its 100% not clear its been faked its hardly grounds to go to war with an alliance let alone a former close ally.

[NoFish]

[quote name='obscurus' date='16 February 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1266344848' post='2185847']
And those "friends stabbed in the back", as some have depicted the 57th, are the same friends who have been helped just one month ago in the Browncoat fiasco, and the same friends to whom the Lodge members - myself included - have donated more than 100 millions bucks to help them after their war. And those are facts, not alleged or real photoshop jobs.

But those are - obviously - ancillary speculations which do not count against the One True Truth of Some: that the Lodge is a gang of bullies out there to backstab their closest friends.

And I quote uisge: hope that this mess gets sorted soon, although I am not sure that the trolls who feast here will allow that.
[/quote]
I seem to have misjudged you, GLoF and I'm sorry. I did not know that you sent them a bunch of money before you canceled your treaty, ignored the cancellation clause, and attacked them without even seriously attempting diplomacy.

Seriously, is that the best you can do? The fact that you were good friends to them before this betrayal only serves to make it [i]worse[/i]. I wonder which one of your allies you'll stab in the back next.