Death Before Dishonour

[Veneke]

[center][IMG]http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/Veneke1/57thFlagbkp4-acopy-1.png[/IMG][/center]
[center][i]Official 57th reply to GLOF.[/i][/center]

Good evening.

This entire war (much like every war since the new year) is more than a bit confusing. I'm going to attempt to display what happened in its entirety below. This will be a long post, as many will note is my style. If you're unwilling to read a wall of text, then I suggest you skip over the OP, and merely read the free to view [URL=http://z10.invisionfree.com/57th_Overlanders/index.php?showtopic=684]peace talks[/URL] that occurred between myself and Penedono with Thunderstrike from RIA moderating. These too may be too long, but if you skim and read the parts in bold you will get an idea of what was going on.

It is sufficient to say that Mechanus and Iyeman left the 57th for their own reasons. I will not be going into detail on this.

Shortly after the new year, it came to our attention that logs from the private 57th IRC room were leaked to various parties. These logs were released with the obvious intention of discrediting the 57th in the minds of her allies and enemies alike. As many of you will no doubt agree, stuff said in the private IRC room of an alliance rarely dictates policy. Nonetheless the logs were an embarrassment to the 57th. The person who leaked the logs was ImaMonkey, a new member of the 57th. A bit of investigative work on our part revealed that the spy in question was ImaMonkey, but that the IRC hotmasks for both Iyeman and ImaMonkey (this was the confirmed spy at this stage) also partially matched. Iyeman's and ImaMonkey's forum IP's however did not match at all. We took this information to GLOF, and their tech guys and our tech guys looked at it. All believed the evidence presented to be curious at best, and damning at worst. This said, GLOF did not believe that it was sufficient enough to be a confirmation of actual spying. The 57th accepted this, and the matter was dropped. As something of a side note, I later found out that Iyeman was put on a watch list in GLOF, and that members were told to watch what they said around him on IRC.

57th internal security at this point increased, and I became more wary of anyone on shifting IP's, or who merely joined but didn't post anywhere or come on IRC regularly. It was during a casual course of checking the online list that I discovered and screenshotted the pic of JackieChan's IP, an IP that matched Iyeman's. This screenshot was taken in the manner that I take all of my screenshots. I'm not very well up on tech things, and I was unaware that a JPEG file is apparently less than useful for things like this. Nonetheless, I took my findings to GLOF again. Penedono told me to wait until his own tech guys got back to him on it. This I agreed with. GLOF's tech blokes agreed that the IP's matched. It was shortly after this that they approached Iyeman. I have no details of that conversation, what I did have, is Iyeman going nuclear rogue on me.

I considered the matter closed at this point.

At 5am on 13th February I received a query from Penedono. The sum total of this was "Hi!". At 5.42am on 13th February GLOF made their thread cancelling their treaty with the 57th and declaring war on the 57th Overlanders in the same breath. They asserted that the screenshot I had given them was a fake, and that I had plans to undermine the internal position of the Lodge, proof of which had been supplied to them by means of a screenshot apparently of myself stating as such.

Both the 57th and indeed myself deny the first allegation. The discolouration of the picture in the JackieChan IP I can only explain as a result of the poor file type I saved the original in. I have no idea how to explain it technically, and I will leave that to more technically proficient people. I can do nothing but emphatically state that I did not, nor did any member of the 57th (or anyone else for that matter), alter the image I sent GLOF in any way.

Had GLOF come to us and shown us this discrepancy, then we would have dropped the accusation, as we did in the earlier instance where GLOF felt that the evidence was insufficient. They did not do this, as is plainly obvious.

The screenshot they were supplied with that "proved" that I was behind it, is an obvious fake. I'll leave the technical side of this to the experts (though quite a few seem to agree that it is faked, or at least has as much doubt as GLOF claim the screenshot I took has). However, there are two obvious differences that all can see.

Firstly that is not how I write at all. The style of writing is dramatically different from my usual prose. Anyone with any knowledge of my style of writing (even my IC enemies) will confirm this, as indeed they have. Secondly, if you look on our forums you'll notice that there is a default gap between the text and the dotted line above the signature. This is absent in the picture GLOF received.

When I made contact about this with Penedono I was told that the screenshot they were supplied of me was not relevant. I was further informed that even GLOF themselves were dubious of its legitimacy. Regardless of all of this, GLOF offered us the following terms:

1. Admit that we faked the screenshot in order to ZI Iyeman.
2. Elect a new Captain (they were willing to allow a re-election of myself).
3. Allow anyone who wants to leave the AA to leave freely.

The third term was odd to say the least. We have never stopped anyone from leaving the 57th. Hence, this was an easily accepted term.

The second term was absurd in the extreme. If GLOF thinks that they can fool around in our internal affairs, they have another thing coming. In fact, its somewhat reminiscent of the pre-Karma days when viceroys and the political influence of larger alliances pretty much gave them full run of those smaller alliances internally affairs.

The first term would require us to admit to doing something we did not do.



I now come to the more curious element of all of this, the GLOF-57th peace talks, talks mediated by ThunderStrike (RIA). These took place over two days, the 14th and 15th (GMT). You can read the entirety of the talks [URL=http://z10.invisionfree.com/57th_Overlanders/index.php?showtopic=684]here[/URL]. The parts in bold are for those who wish to skim the document, it is particularly long.

During the first day of negotiations, the third term was agreed to. The second term was dropped by GLOF. This ended the first day of talks.

The first term posed the largest problems, and it was not until the 15th that we discussed this in any detail. In short, GLOF refused to alter the term in any way at all. Both Thunderstrike and myself attempted to word this first term in a manner that was agreeable to both parties (read the peace talks for more detail on this).

Penedono made an interesting comment (one of several) in the peace talks, which I'll reproduce below because it has immediate relevance.

[QUOTE][03:57] <Penedono[Mason]> you're leader of the alliance - I don't care if it has to be desertson or LP or whoever who steps up and does the right thing, but someone needs to[/QUOTE]

I don't think I need to elaborate much on this. It was from this moment that I realized that GLOF didn't care about the truth of the matter, but more that they needed to be vindicated in their attack on the 57th. There was no attempt to solve the issue during the talks, no attempt to get to the root of the problem, nor explain the obvious problems in the screenshot they were given, or address the fact that the image I took was a JPEG. These were topics quite simply not open to discussion on the GLOF end of things.

Towards the end of the talks Penedono gave us 9 minutes to "own up to what we did or the beating continues. For how long? I don't know."

In short, they have no war aims other than continued war against the 57th until "... we're (GLOF) satisfied that we have caused enough damage commensurate with the disrespect you've shown us". They would seem to seek the end of the 57th, especially when you view Penedono's following two lines "We're not looking for reps, or whatnot - we're looking for the 57th - and you as their leader - to own what you did. If you don't, we'll continuwe to level your allaince"

I'm not sure what more I can say here. They're seeking to level the 57th until we own up to something we did not do.... they're also unwilling to address the numerous problems present in their "case". In short ladies and gentlemen, they're looking to end the 57th either physically, or morally. Physically, by leveling us, or morally by "admitting" to something that we did not do. They seek our destruction.

I strongly advise that you read the logs of the [URL=http://z10.invisionfree.com/57th_Overlanders/index.php?showtopic=684]peace talks[/URL], it is truly amazing what Penedono was saying towards the end of this, and indeed throughout. However, I am not here to convince you of anything, but rather to state what the 57th does in the face of unwarranted and dishonourable aggression coupled with absurd and terms completely impossible for the 57th to agree with.




The 57th Overlanders hereby rejects any terms whatsoever that require us to admit to something we did not do. We are an honourable alliance, whatever our other faults, and this strikes so hard and fast to our core as to be immediately rejected in any form.

The 57th Overlanders hereby rejects any terms that subordinates the internal structure of the 57th or her Charter to a foreign power in any manner shape or form, for whatever reason.

The 57th's counter offer was as follows:[LIST]
[*]GLOF accepts and states that the screenshot they were given of myself was a forgery.
[*]The 57th will accept and state that the evidence given to GLOF over the Iyeman-JackieChan issue is no longer found conclusive by GLOF and hence all accusations are dropped.
[/LIST]This is what we offered. It was rejected in the worse manner possible.

The 57th's counter offer now stands as:[LIST]
[*]GLOF accepts and states that the screenshot they were given of myself was a forgery.
[*]The 57th will accept and state that the evidence given to GLOF over the Iyeman-JackieChan issue is no longer found conclusive by GLOF and hence all accusations are dropped.
[*]GLOF apologizes for bringing accusations against the 57th in a public manner without any recourse to diplomacy.
[*]GLOF apologizes for breaking the Foundation of Serenity treaty and failing to abide by its 1st article (non-aggression), 2nd article (intelligence) and its 6th article (cancellation).
[*]GLOF pays reparations for the damage caused to the 57th for the first round of attacks prior to the ceasefire, and any attacks that occurred during the ceasefire.
[*]The 57th pays reparations (or deducts these from GLOF's reparations amount) for the damage caused to GLOF for any attacks that occurred during the ceasefire.
[/LIST]The 57th is an honourable alliance. I'll be the first to admit we have faults, but we are men (and women) of our word, and our word, our honour, our self-respect (whatever you may wish to call it) is of much more value than anything else.

If GLOF seek our end, then they must be content with the end of us physically. The honour, integrity and ideals of the 57th will not be sacrificed to allow GLOF to save face in the court of public opinion.



Edit: Had to fix image alignment.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Veneke

[DesertSon]

Our bond is our honor, for this we will face the lion's and stand in defiance

[img]http://startthinkingright.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/defiance_mouse_eagle.jpg[/img]

[uisge beatha]

..for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under GLOF rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom, for that alone, which no honest man gives

GLOF if we must ride this to the death of our nations so be it, we know we have done no wrong. why would we ever say we done something that we did not do, to save our nations? I dont think so.

[mythicknight]

GLOF does not seek the end of the 57th. For your leaders, though, well, maybe. That was clearly outlined in their DOW thread.

Keep up the good work GLOF.

Edit: Clarification.

Edited February 15, 2010 by mythicknight

[Gopherbashi]

I should let you know that "Death Before Dishonour" is currently the name of an active alliance.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Honorable, and valiant.

I hope this turns out well for you 57th. i seriously do.

[DesertSon]

[quote name='Gopherbashi' date='15 February 2010 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1266259301' post='2183219']
I should let you know that "Death Before Dishonour" is currently the name of an active alliance.
[/quote]

Spelled differently and really a moot point. Although I think I'd like to meet them, love the name and what it stands for.

[erikz]

Trying to save skin? Quite a bit too late.

[Kindom of Goon]

Well this is sad. I really cannot understand your stance on the issue GLoF.

[Coloradia]

Reading the logs Pen comes off as a sort of "We're kicking you around, give in to what we say" kinda guy. Real stuck up as well. Pity he is part of negotiations.

[Lennox]

Well this is a cluster. Good luck on getting this sorted out.

[Mechanus]

I've sat back and watched as this whole thing has unraveled. I have not bothered to speak up because of people's quick to assume attitude that whatever I may say could be an ex-member with an ax to grind, as people so lovingly like to put it. After reading this load of tripe I've grown tired of the 57th trying to play the victim.

Everything I'm about to say could very well have me removed from the Lodge for speaking out of turn, but I've gotten to the point that I don't care about my well-being and only wish for the attempts against the Lodge to stop.

Veneke sits here and pours out his usual long-winded speech about honour and how they were forced into their position. Yet, he overlooks the very simple term that Penedono offers to end the entire thing:

[quote]
22:10 Ven|afk Can you give me an example of how you might be satisfied?
22:12 Penedono[Mason] If you were to make a public statement sincerely apologizing for passing a forged document to the Lodge for the purposees of habving us expel a member in good standing to allow you to ZI him for doing things you cannot prove he did
22:13 Ven|afk That would head off all of this yes, but assuming we don't own up to something that we didn't do, at what point in our destruction would GLOF be satisfied to have done enough damage commensurate with the disrespect we've apparently shown ye.[/quote]

If that exists within the logs he offers up, then I'm sure you all can read it for yourselves. However, I wonder why Veneke glosses over this part and chooses to only point out those things that put him and his alliance in a more favourable light. The same Veneke who months ago, while I was still leader of the 57th, went to the membership behind my back and held conversations such as this one:

[quote](6:44:26 AM) Veneke[57th]: Actually, while I have you on the line. If the 57th were to create an Intelligence section, a group of people dedicated to securing vital intelligence from our enemies (and possibly allies), how would you suspect that they'd go about it?
(6:45:57 AM) Demolisher: multiple accounts and sign up to the target alliance as a noob
(6:46:53 AM) Veneke[57th]: Aye... high-risk that though, could be deleted/banned from CN. I will admit that the benefits could be huge though.
(6:48:38 AM) Veneke[57th]: Do you think that that's a risk that is worthwhile, in a purely hypothetical sense?
(6:49:27 AM) Demolisher: Depends on who we're spying on, doesnt it. If they are huge and powerful and catch a spy, that's us all ZI'd.
(6:49:54 AM) Veneke[57th]: Indeed it does, or, at best, the spy would be taken out.
(6:50:50 AM) Veneke[57th]: One method I was knocking around was IRC impersonation... impersonate some inactive in the AA, ideally who isn't on the forums yet, and create forum accounts and use IRC as if you were them.
(6:50:59 AM) Demolisher: What on earth would WE need to spy anyone for anyway?
(6:51:09 AM) Veneke[57th]: Tell them you're back-collecting and away you go.
(6:51:13 AM) ***Veneke[57th] chuckles
(6:51:20 AM) Veneke[57th]: Wouldn't you like to know what others are thinking?
(6:51:33 AM) Veneke[57th]: I know I would... particularly in regards Brown FA.
(6:52:18 AM) Demolisher: there's still at least 5 other alliances on brown...
(6:52:49 AM) Veneke[57th]: 5 operatives isn't that many.... particularly if we go the lower risk route of using inactives as cover.
(6:54:06 AM) Veneke[57th]: Still, that extreme is only an idea at this stage. The creation of an Intel section is going to happen, and I seriously doubt that we'll go that far. We will need to find a way of doing intel work without that though...
(6:54:37 AM) Veneke[57th]: OWF and forum tracking are probably the best ways... and some open-source research work. Have you any ideas yourself on either end of the spectrum?[/quote]

Now the above is just one of many talks he held amongst other members of the 57th. I'll leave it to them if they so choose to reveal themselves and the things said. Now surely, Veneke wouldn't be one to do such a thing as spy on his enemies, and possibly even his own allies, to further his own goals? No, of course not. Many people rode in to defend him and his honourable ways because they knew him. Apparently you don't know him as well as you thought you did, eh?

Surely, when Veneke said in the initial peace talks:

[quote]23:16 Ven|afk I'm sorry I'm not bending to your wishes. 57th are stubborn folk, 'fraid it runs in the alliance.
23:17 Ven|afk You're telling me that I have to admit to doing something I did not do, and that the 57th must accept this. Neither is likely.
23:17 Penedono[Mason] I already said I'm willing to sign off on saying we refuse to agree
23:17 Penedono[Mason] Again - just join this conversation?
[b]23:17 Ven|afk We've got a little thing called honour and integrity and you know, the whole "talking to people before we shoot them" thing[/b][/quote]

They wouldn't do anything like accept screenshots of a single thread from an ex-government member and attack an entire alliance based on those single screenshots without first talking to the rest of the alliance or its existing government, would they? Ask BC and see what sort of an answer you get. I'm sure you'll be shocked at what Veneke and the 57th decided to do.

Veneke sits here portraying himself and his alliance as the innocent ones, fighting to stand up against a bigger bully. I call shenanigans on the entire facade. The entire ordeal is a petty grudge that Veneke, and possibly other members of the 57th, carry and had an opportunity to see out. A grudge much like the one that Veneke carries for the reformed Browncoats. Were the screeshots faked or real? Well, on the OWF everyone are experts so you can't listen to the banter of the common masses. But when hearing from those in the design field continually state that there are inconsistencies in the IP images that open the way for edited images, the ability to claim those as solid proof goes out the window. Then it's a matter of trusting those you believe and ignoring the rest of the chaff. The Lodge listened to those they trusted. Here we are now.

I've posted here at the risk of my own nation, my own reputation (whatever that is), and my own future in this world to try and point out that Veneke is not this innocent and honourable person, but someone with his own agenda to carry out and damn those who he takes down in his push forward. Listen to me or not, I care not. I've said my peace. The courts of public opinion will believe who they choose to. I only hope that you take the time to consider that everything you see is not what is real.

[JTKirk]

[quote]Trying to save skin? Quite a bit too late. [/quote]

Never to late to try to set the record straight.

[raasaa]

[quote name='Veneke' date='15 February 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1266258542' post='2183208']
When I made contact about this with Penedono I was told that the screenshot they were supplied of me was not relevant. I was further informed that even GLOF themselves were dubious of its legitimacy. Regardless of all of this, GLOF offered us the following terms:

1. Admit that [s]we[/s] you faked the screenshot in order to ZI Iyeman.
2. Elect a new Captain (they were willing to allow a re-election of myself).
3. Allow anyone who wants to leave the AA to leave freely.

The third term was odd to say the least. We have never stopped anyone from leaving the 57th. Hence, this was an easily accepted term.

[/quote]
1) Fixed it

2) He doesnt say that 57th HAS TO elect a new captain.
[03:42] <Penedono[Mason]> As we were exploring earlier, I think it would be fair to see the members of the 57th goven a chance to examine whther they would like a new Captain.

3) And also protect the said ppl till they find a new alliance. He also stated that GLOF would not accept 57th members for a period of time, agreeable by you.

As far as i see it...the terms are rosy....i dont see where the confusion / predicament is

[SilentFury]

wait what did GLOF just attack an ally ? lol

[supercoolyellow]

I just read through this entire post just looking for how it involved my friends at Death before Dishonor

[evilsquirrel]

GLoF declared on a ally and close friend. Based on false evidence and petty grudges. There have been plenty of dumb things which have transpired on the OWF but this is the most shameful, disgusting and dishonorable thing I have ever seen both here and in RL. I am a veteran of the United States Navy. I know what honor means as well as courage and commitment. These three values instilled in me would not allow be to stand idly by if the accusations against ven were true. However, I know ven. I consider him a close friend. He does not approve of spying at all in any form. Veneke is a damn fine captain and has lead us well. I am honored and privileged to stand here with him on this day. To GLoF: You attacked us because a couple of members wanted ven's $@! on a mantle above the fireplace. Your leadership did not have the balls to stand up and say "You guys are morons". Squirrels are honorable and noble creatures of the woods, yes even the evil variety, the people of Squirrel Federation will never admit to something as false as the accusations laid out, we would rather hurl ourselves in traffic. I will continue to hope that maybe one day, CN and the alliances that occupy it will learn how to wage war for actual reasons and not bull. Not over petty grudges and not on fake info one created *cough GLoF cough* And to NSO, dont worry.....we pulled out long ago.....and it felt good

[Veneke]

Mechanus -

The term Penedono offered us was to admit to something we did not do. I did not do, if you'd prefer. For the record, the quote you have there is from the peace talks. As I suggested above, read the entirety of them. Context is after all as important as content.

Ooooh, character assassination... always fun to see those. I notice that you conveniently forget to mention that those conversations with various people in the 57th regarding all of that was because I found a bunch of them trying to set up a spy ring and we, well I, went to end it. It's this context business again that you're forgetting.

I figured that the BC war was going to come up. The situation is drastically different. In the BC case, we had a .gov member leave Browncoats, come to us with screenshots that BC were planning to attack us, and we acted on it. What we have here, is an [b]ally[/b] receive a screenshot that makes no sense, from a non .gov member (conveniently anonymously too) that doesn't even stand up to said ally's scrutiny. You can try spinning it all you want, but the two situations are vastly different.

A grudge? Mate, that makes no sense at all. I'll leave you to your delusions though. How about you look at the image itself? There are clear inconsistencies that you don't need any skills in photoshopping to see. As for GLOF not believing that the screenshot that I supplied was genuine, don't you consider it a tad odd that they broke a treaty and attacked us in this manner? It seems a massive overreaction, and considering the peace talks, and the fact that there are disgruntled ex-members of the 57th in GLOF, and well... might get a bloke thinking, wouldn't it?

Your last paragraph is an attempt at casting your own self as the victim, and I'm calling hypocrite on it. That said, it is utterly fitting. Carry on.

[Veneke]

[quote name='raasaa' date='15 February 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1266260560' post='2183255']
1) Fixed it

2) He doesnt say that 57th HAS TO elect a new captain.
[03:42] <Penedono[Mason]> As we were exploring earlier, I think it would be fair to see the members of the 57th goven a chance to examine whther they would like a new Captain.

3) And also protect the said ppl till they find a new alliance. He also stated that GLOF would not accept 57th members for a period of time, agreeable by you.

As far as i see it...the terms are rosy....i dont see where the confusion / predicament is
[/quote]

Before the term was retracted Raasaa it was a definite election of a new Captain.

Your clarification on points one and three are about right, though protection was altered to RIA in the peace talks I'm nearly positive.

The problem lies in that we're being forced into "admitting" something that we did not do in order to survive. That's the predicament.

[Mechanus]

[quote name='Veneke' date='15 February 2010 - 11:29 AM' timestamp='1266262197' post='2183289']
Ooooh, character assassination... always fun to see those. I notice that you conveniently forget to mention that those conversations with various people in the 57th regarding all of that was because I found a bunch of them trying to set up a spy ring and we, well I, went to end it. It's this context business again that you're forgetting.
[/quote]

Wait a second....how is the below about you trying to end anything:

[quote](6:44:26 AM) [b]Veneke[57th]: Actually, while I have you on the line. If the 57th were to create an Intelligence section, a group of people dedicated to securing vital intelligence from our enemies (and possibly allies), how would you suspect that they'd go about it?[/b]
(6:45:57 AM) Demolisher: multiple accounts and sign up to the target alliance as a noob
(6:46:53 AM) Veneke[57th]: Aye... high-risk that though, could be deleted/banned from CN. I will admit that the benefits could be huge though.
(6:48:38 AM) Veneke[57th]: Do you think that that's a risk that is worthwhile, in a purely hypothetical sense?
(6:49:27 AM) Demolisher: Depends on who we're spying on, doesnt it. If they are huge and powerful and catch a spy, that's us all ZI'd.
(6:49:54 AM) Veneke[57th]: Indeed it does, or, at best, the spy would be taken out.
(6:50:50 AM) Veneke[57th]: [b]One method I was knocking around was IRC impersonation[/b]... impersonate some inactive in the AA, ideally who isn't on the forums yet, and create forum accounts and use IRC as if you were them.
(6:50:59 AM) Demolisher: What on earth would WE need to spy anyone for anyway?
(6:51:09 AM) Veneke[57th]: Tell them you're back-collecting and away you go.
(6:51:13 AM) ***Veneke[57th] chuckles
(6:51:20 AM) [b]Veneke[57th]: Wouldn't you like to know what others are thinking?[/b]
(6:51:33 AM) [b]Veneke[57th]: I know I would... particularly in regards Brown FA.[/b]
(6:52:18 AM) Demolisher: there's still at least 5 other alliances on brown...
(6:52:49 AM) Veneke[57th]: 5 operatives isn't that many.... particularly if we go the lower risk route of using inactives as cover.
(6:54:06 AM) Veneke[57th]: Still, that extreme is only an idea at this stage. [b]The creation of an Intel section is going to happen[/b], and I seriously doubt that we'll go that far. We will need to find a way of doing intel work without that though...
(6:54:37 AM) Veneke[57th]: OWF and forum tracking are probably the best ways... and some open-source research work. Have you any ideas yourself on either end of the spectrum?[/quote]

I don't see anywhere in there that shows you were trying to bust up some sort of spy ring. Matter of fact, the bolded parts show that you were trying to set one up and went through some possible methods to make it work. Hypothetically speaking.

I mean, if you were trying to break something like that up, while I was leader, don't you think you would have, you know....told me?

[Charles the Great]

your leader is a snake........he lied and wont own up to it..........now he tries to play the poor defensless one...
this is way too rich............title should be dishonour then death............and keep trying to deflect we know your leader is the one with the axe to grind and picked a poor target trying to ZI someone in an allies alliance.........you reap what you sow............

[evilsquirrel]

Listen here you retarded !@#$@#$ gerbil or whatever it is you are, either way you need to be kicked, run over, stomped or a nice combo of all three. Take your midget $@! and your pathetic excuse for a lightsaber out of here before I pimp smack you with it. The new name for GLoF should be dishonor. You pathetic alliance attacked on false evidence. SO CHARLES? FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU YOU BLOODY RETARDED JACKASS GERBIL !@#$%*!

Edited February 15, 2010 by evilsquirrel

[JTKirk]

[quote](6:44:26 AM) Veneke[57th]: Actually, while I have you on the line. If the 57th were to create an Intelligence section, a group of people dedicated to securing vital intelligence from our enemies (and possibly allies), how would you suspect that they'd go about it?
(6:45:57 AM) Demolisher: multiple accounts and sign up to the target alliance as a noob
(6:46:53 AM) Veneke[57th]: Aye... high-risk that though, could be deleted/banned from CN. I will admit that the benefits could be huge though.
(6:48:38 AM) Veneke[57th]: Do you think that that's a risk that is worthwhile, in a purely hypothetical sense?
(6:49:27 AM) Demolisher: Depends on who we're spying on, doesnt it. If they are huge and powerful and catch a spy, that's us all ZI'd.
(6:49:54 AM) Veneke[57th]: Indeed it does, or, at best, the spy would be taken out.
(6:50:50 AM) Veneke[57th]: One method I was knocking around was IRC impersonation... impersonate some inactive in the AA, ideally who isn't on the forums yet, and create forum accounts and use IRC as if you were them.
(6:50:59 AM) Demolisher: What on earth would WE need to spy anyone for anyway?
(6:51:09 AM) Veneke[57th]: Tell them you're back-collecting and away you go.
(6:51:13 AM) ***Veneke[57th] chuckles
(6:51:20 AM) Veneke[57th]: Wouldn't you like to know what others are thinking?
(6:51:33 AM) Veneke[57th]: I know I would... particularly in regards Brown FA.
(6:52:18 AM) Demolisher: there's still at least 5 other alliances on brown...
(6:52:49 AM) Veneke[57th]: 5 operatives isn't that many.... particularly if we go the lower risk route of using inactives as cover.
(6:54:06 AM) Veneke[57th]:[b] Still, that extreme is only an idea at this stage.[/b] The creation of an Intel section is going to happen, and [b]I seriously doubt that we'll go that far. We will need to find a way of doing intel work without that though...[/b]
(6:54:37 AM) Veneke[57th]:[b] OWF and forum tracking are probably the best ways... and some open-source research work.[/b] Have you any ideas yourself on either end of the spectrum?[/quote]

Now the bolded sections tell a slightly different story, one of a leader trying to tell his troops to drop it without being an arse. Sounds an awful lot like the Ven I know. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

EDIT: Clarification.

Edited February 15, 2010 by JTKirk

[Veneke]

Mech -

Again, this whole context business. That conversation there with Demolisher was because he was one of the people suspected of being involved, and I went about trying to find out exactly who it was that was behind all of that bloody mess. Why you're waiting until now to bring up buried history though is annoying, because it's quite clear what your intentions are, especially when you refuse to deal with the facts at hand.

Told you? I remember the first time you found out that there were blokes doing something behind your back. You flipped out on me. Next time it came up, I kept it to myself to sort it all out, and I did. Nobody had to know that someone (who has since left the 57th OOC: and CN entirely) had been days away from going through with that stupid plan.

[Charles the Great]

Bolded some better parts for you

Quote

[b](6:44:26 AM) Veneke[57th]: Actually, while I have you on the line. If the 57th were to create an Intelligence section, a group of people dedicated to securing vital intelligence from our enemies (and possibly allies), [/b]how would you suspect that they'd go about it?
(6:45:57 AM) Demolisher: multiple accounts and sign up to the target alliance as a noob
(6:46:53 AM) Veneke[57th]: Aye... high-risk that though, could be deleted/banned from CN. [b]I will admit that the benefits could be huge though.[/b]
(6:48:38 AM) Veneke[57th]: Do you think that that's a risk that is worthwhile, in a purely hypothetical sense?
(6:49:27 AM) Demolisher: Depends on who we're spying on, doesnt it. If they are huge and powerful and catch a spy, that's us all ZI'd.
(6:49:54 AM) Veneke[57th]: Indeed it does, or, at best, the spy would be taken out.
(6:50:50 AM) Veneke[57th]: One method I was knocking around was IRC impersonation... impersonate some inactive in the AA, ideally who isn't on the forums yet, and create forum accounts and use IRC as if you were them.
(6:50:59 AM) Demolisher: What on earth would WE need to spy anyone for anyway?
(6:51:09 AM) Veneke[57th]: Tell them you're back-collecting and away you go.
(6:51:13 AM) ***Veneke[57th] chuckles
(6:51:20 AM) Veneke[57th]: Wouldn't you like to know what others are thinking?
(6:51:33 AM) Veneke[57th]: I know I would... particularly in regards Brown FA.
(6:52:18 AM) Demolisher: there's still at least 5 other alliances on brown...
(6:52:49 AM) Veneke[57th]: 5 operatives isn't that many.... particularly if we go the lower risk route of using inactives as cover.
(6:54:06 AM) Veneke[57th]: Still, that extreme is only an idea at this stage.[b] The creation of an Intel section is going to happen[/b], and I seriously doubt that we'll go that far. We will need to find a way of doing intel work without that though...
(6:54:37 AM) Veneke[57th]: OWF and forum tracking are probably the best ways... and some open-source research work. Have you any ideas yourself on either end of the spectrum?

Edited February 15, 2010 by Charles the Great