Death Before Dishonour

[Alexd]

[quote name='evilsquirrel' date='15 February 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1266261482' post='2183276']
GLoF declared on a ally and close friend. Based on false evidence and petty grudges. There have been plenty of dumb things which have transpired on the OWF but this is the most shameful, disgusting and dishonorable thing I have ever seen both here and in RL. I am a veteran of the United States Navy. I know what honor means as well as courage and commitment. These three values instilled in me would not allow be to stand idly by if the accusations against ven were true. However, I know ven. I consider him a close friend. He does not approve of spying at all in any form. Veneke is a damn fine captain and has lead us well. I am honored and privileged to stand here with him on this day. To GLoF: You attacked us because a couple of members wanted ven's $@! on a mantle above the fireplace. Your leadership did not have the balls to stand up and say "You guys are morons". Squirrels are honorable and noble creatures of the woods, yes even the evil variety, the people of Squirrel Federation will never admit to something as false as the accusations laid out, we would rather hurl ourselves in traffic. I will continue to hope that maybe one day, CN and the alliances that occupy it will learn how to wage war for actual reasons and not bull. Not over petty grudges and not on fake info one created *cough GLoF cough* And to NSO, dont worry.....we pulled out long ago.....and it felt good
[/quote]

Does not approve of spying?
Quote
(6:44:26 AM) Veneke[57th]: Actually, while I have you on the line. If the 57th were to create an Intelligence section, a group of people dedicated to securing vital intelligence from our enemies (and possibly allies), how would you suspect that they'd go about it?
(6:45:57 AM) Demolisher: multiple accounts and sign up to the target alliance as a noob
(6:46:53 AM) Veneke[57th]: Aye... high-risk that though, could be deleted/banned from CN. I will admit that the benefits could be huge though.
(6:48:38 AM) Veneke[57th]: Do you think that that's a risk that is worthwhile, in a purely hypothetical sense?
(6:49:27 AM) Demolisher: Depends on who we're spying on, doesnt it. If they are huge and powerful and catch a spy, that's us all ZI'd.
(6:49:54 AM) Veneke[57th]: Indeed it does, or, at best, the spy would be taken out.
(6:50:50 AM) Veneke[57th]: One method I was knocking around was IRC impersonation... impersonate some inactive in the AA, ideally who isn't on the forums yet, and create forum accounts and use IRC as if you were them.
(6:50:59 AM) Demolisher: What on earth would WE need to spy anyone for anyway?
(6:51:09 AM) Veneke[57th]: Tell them you're back-collecting and away you go.
(6:51:13 AM) ***Veneke[57th] chuckles
(6:51:20 AM) Veneke[57th]: Wouldn't you like to know what others are thinking?
(6:51:33 AM) Veneke[57th]: I know I would... particularly in regards Brown FA.
(6:52:18 AM) Demolisher: there's still at least 5 other alliances on brown...
(6:52:49 AM) Veneke[57th]: 5 operatives isn't that many.... particularly if we go the lower risk route of using inactives as cover.
(6:54:06 AM) Veneke[57th]: Still, that extreme is only an idea at this stage. The creation of an Intel section is going to happen, and I seriously doubt that we'll go that far. We will need to find a way of doing intel work without that though...
(6:54:37 AM) Veneke[57th]: OWF and forum tracking are probably the best ways... and some open-source research work. Have you any ideas yourself on either end of the spectrum?

[Bower3aj]

[quote name='Leigon' date='15 February 2010 - 07:23 PM' timestamp='1266279809' post='2183702']
You're fighting a war against your MDoAP partner, ended the already existing ceasefire and it doesn't look like you were ready to concede anymore. Those talks were already finished unless Veneke admits to something which he seemingly didn't want to. What did you exspect them to do? Sit there and take the punishment? Not being able to fight back properly at the moment leaves going public as the most promising way to react. I'd have done the same.

I gotta agree that Thunderstrike did a fantastic job though. I really don't know how he reached that ceasefire the first day.
I guess everyone was getting tired.

edit: Also what Chron said.
Now look what you've done. You've made me agree with Chron.
[/quote]

I'd like to also point out that Thunderstrike while doing his fantastic job said something that everybody here is skipping over.

[quote]21:43 Ven|afk Thunder, do you believe my proposal to be reasonable?
21:44 ThunderStrike I can't see it being one that GLOF will be willing to accept.
21:44 ThunderStrike Regardless of who is right or wrong here neither of you are going to back down from your arguements.[/quote]

the first line he says tells Ven that he already knows that an alliance in our position would not accept the terms Ven suggests.
The second shows he knows that both Ven and Penedono are stubborn.

And just so nobody says "well ThunderSrike clearly thinks that Ven's right"

[quote]21:44 ThunderStrike And there really is no conclusive proof as to who is right.[/quote]

but in all, he has done a great job thus far. I wouldn't have gone to the boards. If I had such a good moderator working the talks I would let them keep working their magic. But it seems like every time ThunderStrike tried to move the peace talks along with discussing the terms Ven jumped in and accused the Lodge of trying to E-war them or some other ludicrous accusation. I can't blame Penedono for getting frustrated after an hour of that.

[Leigon]

[quote name='Bower3aj' date='16 February 2010 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1266280110' post='2183713']
Again, you think I'm talking about something that I'm not. I don't know how to make my post any clearer so perhaps I should just stop trying to make you see what I am actually seeing. But, I'll give it one more shot. I'm not saying that you're hailing them or rather booing us for our actions is wrong. I'm saying you hailing them for breaking the well established principle that you don't log dump peace talks. It only hurts the peace process. So if you really think the 57th don't deserve this war, there is no reason for anybody to be hailing this announcement. It doesn't help peace get established. It only draws attention to try to put diplomatic pressure on the other alliance, which is never appreciated by the other alliance and really is just ridiculous when you can now see in the peace talks, since Ven dumped them, that Penedono doesn't care what those [OOC] on these boards [/OOC] think.
[/quote]

If there was a peace process that might be true, but you more or less ended that process when you broke the ceasefire and made demands that they are unwilling to fulfill.

Also drama out in the open is just more enjoyable for me.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Alexd' date='16 February 2010 - 12:33 AM' timestamp='1266280425' post='2183725']
-Snipped because I'm frankly tired of seeing it-
[/quote]
Listen, kids, a set of logs isnt a catch-all retort. It's not a silver bullet, see, when the context for those logs have already been given, and your only response is to repost them and highlight the same vague comments over and over again, then you're just making fools out of yourselves.

Feel free to call everyone a bunch of idiots and "masses" who refuse to acknowledge your absolute [i]rightness[/i], but the fact of the matter is that you are hilariously in the wrong. And your antics to justify yourselves just keep on digging you deeper and deeper into that hole.

You're gonna need to do better than that.

[quote]the first line he says tells Ven that he already knows that an alliance in our position would not accept the terms Ven suggests.
The second shows he knows that both Ven and Penedono are stubborn. [/quote] No it doesn't, it's just him acknowledging the reality that neither party will budge.

"Your position" is one which you made yourselves, you're no victim. Trying to play that card is a damn joke.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Chron

[dvdcchn]

Penedono and GLOF are stand up gents, its sad to see friends part, but good stuff GLOF

[TehChron]

[quote name='dvdcchn' date='16 February 2010 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1266281194' post='2183751']
Penedono and GLOF are stand up gents, its sad to see friends part, but good stuff GLOF
[/quote]
This isn't a matter of "friends parting" but one in which a friend hears a completely unfounded accusation from someone else, then turns around and stabs their friend in the back while the police are distracted by a bank robbery.

It's kind of horrible, to be honest.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Chron

[Bower3aj]

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1266280675' post='2183735']
No it doesn't, it's just him acknowledging the reality that neither party will budge.

"Your position" is one which you made yourselves, you're no victim. Trying to play that card is a damn joke.
[/quote]

And people who will both not budge when they have conflicting ideas is not them being stubborn how?

and yes, declaring war probably did put us in the position of being in war. Good observation. and when did I play the victim card?

[Bower3aj]

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 07:48 PM' timestamp='1266281319' post='2183760']
This isn't a matter of "friends parting" but one in which a friend hears a completely unfounded accusation from someone else, then turns around and stabs their friend in the back while the police are distracted by a bank robbery.

It's kind of horrible, to be honest.
[/quote]

yes because having a forged screen shot given to us by our ally and acting on it is totally being opportunistic. Rather, perhaps you should know that even if the world was at peace we would have declared war. We are no cowards, no matter how much you'd like to suggest that we are.

[Leigon]

[quote name='Bower3aj' date='16 February 2010 - 01:36 AM' timestamp='1266280591' post='2183730']
I'd like to also point out that Thunderstrike while doing his fantastic job said something that everybody here is skipping over.



the first line he says tells Ven that he already knows that an alliance in our position would not accept the terms Ven suggests.
The second shows he knows that both Ven and Penedono are stubborn.

And just so nobody says "well ThunderSrike clearly thinks that Ven's right"



but in all, he has done a great job thus far. I wouldn't have gone to the boards. If I had such a good moderator working the talks I would let them keep working their magic. But it seems like every time ThunderStrike tried to move the peace talks along with discussing the terms Ven jumped in and accused the Lodge of trying to E-war them or some other ludicrous accusation. I can't blame Penedono for getting frustrated after an hour of that.
[/quote]

Oh, I don't wanna get into who's right and who's wrong. And Thunderstrike clearly didn't want to either. But he tried proposing ideas how to get to a mutually acceptable solution. One that might let both alliances out of this war saving some face. And there was some real progress on day one. But day two brought not only a standstill but a reversal of the achieved results. That seems like a good time to put the public pressure on in my eyes.

And while the "accusations" might have been somewhat blown up penedono did his best to be vague. So one could also see them as simple questions for clarification.

Anyways it's not really my business so I'll retract myself from this thread. Otherwise I might have to agree with NSO again.

[evilsquirrel]

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1266279287' post='2183682']
Hahaha...Uhahahahahaha...HUAHAHAHAHAA-AHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Oh god, I'm crying, that's too rich.

You're attacking the 57th over unproven, faked images, without allowing them to explain things and are now CRITICIZING him for not showing the proper diplomatic respect by showing how stubborn you are in refusing to acknowledge you may be in the wrong?

You, actually accusing the folks you're beating on, of machismo, when the reasons you yourselves are fighting are because you were unwilling to admit you were wrong. That's too much, seriously.

You know, bud, you really are in no position to criticize anyone of blindly hailing anyone here, when your entire justification for your own moves have been a blind adherence to whatever the reason is for your attacking.

You're lucky everyone else is busy, and have bigger fish to fry. If I were you, I would [i]hope[/i] that this could be settled quickly, and then swept under the rug before other interested parties recover enough to smack you down for your transgressions.
[/quote]

Sir...........you....are........awesome

Edited February 16, 2010 by evilsquirrel

[TehChron]

[quote name='Bower3aj' date='16 February 2010 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1266281583' post='2183773']
yes because having a forged screen shot given to us by our ally and acting on it is totally being opportunistic. Rather, perhaps you should know that even if the world was at peace we would have declared war. We are no cowards, no matter how much you'd like to suggest that we are.
[/quote]
Oh, cowards?

So you're not concerned with being considered backstabbers? Good to know, I'm glad to see you're at least comfortable with the moniker.

Yeah, and considering the fact that your main problem is that you were given a faked screenshot, when the screenshot you're using as a basis for your war is itself faked...I suppose you'll be declaring on your informant, or yourselves, next?

I mean, clearly you guys don't care about excuses, as faked screenshots are the line in the sand here.

[Hydro]

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1266281319' post='2183760']
This isn't a matter of "friends parting" but one in which a friend hears a completely unfounded accusation from someone else, then turns around and stabs their friend in the back while the police are distracted by a bank robbery.

It's kind of horrible, to be honest.
[/quote]



Really Chron? You're going to stick up for 57th?



The treaty would have been considered broken by 57th after they were caught spying on GLOF. Last time I checked, the NSO had a very similar response to spies to GLOF's current one.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Hydro' date='16 February 2010 - 01:01 AM' timestamp='1266282089' post='2183787']
Really Chron? You're going to stick up for 57th?



The treaty would have been considered broken by 57th after they were caught spying on GLOF. Last time I checked, the NSO had a very similar response to spies to GLOF's current one.
[/quote]
Yeah, except the "evidence" showing that 57th did anything is apparently faked.

Back off, and may I suggest not starting anything when you haven't actually looked into the context? kthxbai.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Chron

[DesertSon]

The treaty would have been considered broken by 57th after they were caught spying on GLOF. Last time I checked, the NSO had a very similar response to spies to GLOF's current one.
[/quote]

You're so far off base the pitcher had time to tag you out himself and run home to kiss your mother. The 57th has not been accused of sping anywhere in the DoW

[Treborprime]

[quote name='Hydro' date='15 February 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1266282089' post='2183787']
Really Chron? You're going to stick up for 57th?



The treaty would have been considered broken by 57th after they were caught spying on GLOF. Last time I checked, the NSO had a very similar response to spies to GLOF's current one.
[/quote]

Hypocrisy is an easy thing here on the ole net.

Veneke knew that bypassing the process by posting here would put himself in the drivers seat. Screenshots or not, the logs themselves are rather incriminating.

Anyone can spout honor. But to live it is another thing all together.

[TehChron]

[quote name='DesertSon' date='16 February 2010 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1266282475' post='2183804']


You're so far off base the pitcher had time to tag you out himself and run home to kiss your mother. The 57th has not been accused of sping anywhere in the DoW
[/quote]
They actually did, in the DoW.

Anyway, the main crux here is that the evidence GLoF has presented has been shown to be fake. And GLoF didnt even bother to look into it before attacking.

[quote name='Treborprime' date='16 February 2010 - 01:10 AM' timestamp='1266282606' post='2183808']
Hypocrisy is an easy thing here on the ole net.

Veneke knew that bypassing the process by posting here would put himself in the drivers seat. Screenshots or not, the logs themselves are rather incriminating.

Anyone can spout honor. But to live it is another thing all together.
[/quote]
I really can't believe you're all spouting this nonsensical line. Really. Honor isn't turning the other cheek when you're stabbed in the back, it's taking a whatever's handy and defending yourself from whatever tricks they may try to use.

Considering the sheer number of character attacks you've thrown at Veneke to justify yourselves, it should come as no surprise when someone points out that the ones making the accusations aren't exactly the good guys.

You all have no business playing the honor card.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Chron

[Treborprime]

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1266282323' post='2183797']
[b]Yeah, except the "evidence" showing that 57th did anything is apparently faked.[/b]

Back off, and may I suggest not starting anything when you haven't actually looked into the context? kthxbai.
[/quote]

Have you?

You just confirmed what was being said. GLOF was submitted a screenshot was first taken seriously and later shown to be faked.

Interesting how there is two sides to every story eh?

Edited February 16, 2010 by Treborprime

[TehChron]

[quote name='Treborprime' date='16 February 2010 - 01:12 AM' timestamp='1266282729' post='2183811']
Have you? Kettle meet pot.
[/quote]
I read through 15 pages of folks pointing out your provided screenshots of Veneke saying anything were fake. So yeah, I have.

Thanks for playing.

[quote]You just confirmed what was being said. GLOF was submitted a screenshot was first taken seriously and later shown to be faked.

Interesting how there is two sides to every story eh?[/quote]The crux being you declared war over fake screenshots before getting them verified. With very little time between getting them and the actual declaration.

You all may have your own side, but since it mostly consists of character attacks justifying your eagerness to declare on your ally, then I think it's not worth taking seriously.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Chron

[Treborprime]

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1266282948' post='2183818']
I read through 15 pages of folks pointing out your provided screenshots of Veneke saying anything were fake. So yeah, I have.

Thanks for playing.

The crux being you declared war over fake screenshots before getting them verified. With very little time between getting them and the actual declaration.

You all may have your own side, but since it mostly consists of character attacks justifying your eagerness to declare on your ally, then I think it's not worth taking seriously.
[/quote]

Eagerness? I am very absolutely sure there was no eagerness.

You obviously missed the part that Veneke purposefully left out. The screenshots he [b]originally submitted to us[/b]. So pray-tell which one was fake and which one was not? This thread was to serve one purpose and that was to flame bait. If you can't see that well...

You simply aren't qualified to judge the merits of this conflict.

[Heft]

[quote name='Hydro' date='15 February 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1266282089' post='2183787']
Really Chron? You're going to stick up for 57th?
[/quote]
Yea, GLOF's escalating idiocy and pointless stubbornness really is that bad.

They took a legitimate question and [i]attacked their MDP[/i] partners over it rather than asking "hey what's going on here? this looks bad." Once people pointed out "Hey that's kind of crazy" then GLOF started telling everyone they were just crazy and biased and dumb and ignorant and everyone is just like "dude are you sure?" "Yes we're sure shut up you hooligans!!!!!" "okay but..." "YOU'RE A WHORE"

That's the story of how GLOF defeated themselves.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Treborprime' date='16 February 2010 - 01:23 AM' timestamp='1266283414' post='2183832']
Eagerness? I am very absolutely sure there was no eagerness.

You obviously missed the part that Veneke purposefully left out. The screenshots he [b]originally submitted to us[/b]. So pray-tell which one was fake and which one was not? This thread was to serve one purpose and that was to flame bait. If you can't see that well...

You simply aren't qualified to judge the merits of this conflict.
[/quote]
"Oh we got a possible faked screenshot and then things went down in a vague way that we felt was very suspicious with a direct ally, let's declare war on them!"

The accusation of veneke shopping those images is still up in the air. On the other hand, the other set (which you *are* basing your DoW on) have been shown to be blatantly fake.

That you attacked on such flimsy rationale makes it honestly difficult to believe you were hesitant at all during the entire process.

As far as anyone being qualified, kid, I doubt your [i]alliance[/i] is qualified to comment on the merits of this conflict.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Chron

[Hydro]

[quote name='Heft' date='15 February 2010 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1266283669' post='2183842']
Yea, GLOF's escalating idiocy and pointless stubbornness really is that bad.
[/quote]

It just seems a little odd, given their past trolling of NSO. Apparently they've made quite the impression on you though, so I'll simply wish you good luck in what I presume will be your newest treaty partners after this war.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Hydro' date='16 February 2010 - 01:50 AM' timestamp='1266285017' post='2183905']
It just seems a little odd, given their past trolling of NSO. Apparently they've made quite the impression on you though, so I'll simply wish you good luck in what I presume will be your newest treaty partners after this war.
[/quote]
I'm sorry we don't let blind ideology impair our ability to call out !@#$%^&* when we see it?

Nice to see you care, by the way.

[Bower3aj]

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 08:32 PM' timestamp='1266283934' post='2183855']
the other set (which you *are* basing your DoW on) have been shown to be blatantly fake.
[/quote]

And see this is just where you are blatantly wrong. But really, if you really refuse to accept that this isn't the case then I would be happy to point out the literally dozens of times where we say over and over again that our DoW is the Screen Shots given to us by Veneke, not the Screen Shot of an alleged Veneke post. Accept it or I seriously will go and find every single example posted in this announcement, in our announcement, and in the peace talk logs that show that this is what we have said [u][b][i]the entire time[/i][/b][/u].

[TehChron]

[quote name='Bower3aj' date='16 February 2010 - 01:55 AM' timestamp='1266285357' post='2183924']
And see this is just where you are blatantly wrong. But really, if you really refuse to accept that this isn't the case then I would be happy to point out the literally dozens of times where we say over and over again that our DoW is the Screen Shots given to us by Veneke, not the Screen Shot of an alleged Veneke post. Accept it or I seriously will go and find every single example posted in this announcement, in our announcement, and in the peace talk logs that show that this is what we have said [u][b][i]the entire time[/i][/b][/u].
[/quote]
So you declared war on your MDP partner over a possibly faked screenshot regarding an individual that went rogue anyway?

Wow, that's actually [i]so[/i] much more reasonable.