Why I stand where I stand

[Venizelos]

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='09 February 2010 - 07:23 PM' timestamp='1265736197' post='2170766']
...but MK above all other alliances is in a position where asking for more than nothing wouldn't be seen as greedy/opportunistic. I think you guys, if you got TOP to surrender, could easily ask for about 600 million and .. 10 000 - 20 000 tech[/quote]

20k tech? lol... we've lost a lot more than that. im not the one making the rep requirements obviously, but if it were up to me it would be way more than 20k tech.
and GoD will certainly ask reps from Polar.


[quote name='bigwoody' date='09 February 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1265737369' post='2170795']
[quote]we promise to isolate you by taking away[/quote]
Has been done this war.[/quote]

for example?

[quote name='bigwoody' date='09 February 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1265737369' post='2170795']
[quote]or rolling your friends[/quote]
Attempted on TPF[/quote]

u mad~


[quote name='bigwoody' date='09 February 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1265737369' post='2170795']
[quote]declare on you for a fabricated reason[/quote]
TPF[/quote]

the reason wasnt fabricated. it wasnt the most amazing CB ever, but at least athens felt it was correct. also, the war didnt even happen in the end. nobody got rolled or had to pay insane reps. you cant compare apples with oranges.



[quote name='bigwoody' date='09 February 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1265737369' post='2170795']
[quote]and proceed take you out in an 8vs1 curbstomp next time.[/quote]
If you could, you would. As it is you're pulling out every alliance you can. Of course, this is kinda how war is. But since you brought it up...
[/quote]

actually, no, we wouldn't. you cant just assume we're like you, because you're so bad you cant even imagine that someone isnt as !@#$%* as you are.

[der_ko]

[quote name='Zero-One' date='09 February 2010 - 05:29 AM' timestamp='1265689776' post='2169770']
If I don't insult you in public, then do not insult me. Don't be surprised to get slapped if you do. Is that too much of a concept to understand?
[/quote]
So you want to use force to make sure opinions voiced on the OWF is to your liking? I find that opinion insulting, thus, I will attack you in order to silence you and deter like-minded individuals from voicing similair opinions.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='09 February 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1265743132' post='2170929']
[color="#0000FF"]Fark? RIA? RoK? Sparta? MHA? Gremlins? FOK? Well, I look forward to your prediction.

Edit: Seems I've forgotten VE. Let me know if I need to put anybody else on this list.[/color]
[/quote]
When did Fark, RIA, RoK, Sparta, MHA, Grämlins, FOK!, or VE ever run a Tech raid game show or a Shark Week?
My post explicitly stated the alliance who did the Shark Week and Tech Raid game show have been stomped into oblivion. Are you denying this fact?

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Venizelos' date='09 February 2010 - 05:41 PM' timestamp='1265758884' post='2171419']
for example?[/quote]
Polar

[quote]u mad~[/quote]
A logically devastating retort, truly.

[quote]the reason wasnt fabricated. it wasnt the most amazing CB ever, but at least athens felt it was correct. also, the war didnt even happen in the end. nobody got rolled or had to pay insane reps. you cant compare apples with oranges.[/quote]
I can't really think of a war where the initiating party didn't find their reasons justified. From an outsider's perspective, Athens CB was utter crap, and absolutely reeked of "because we (think we) can".

[quote]actually, no, we wouldn't. you cant just assume we're like you, because you're so bad you cant even imagine that someone isnt as !@#$%* as you are.
[/quote]
Ooooh, you wound me. In this war you're scraping every alliance you can to try and get involved. Chivalry is !@#$%^&*. Frankly, I'm not even crying about the fact you're trying to cause curbstomps. C&G wants a hegemony centered around themselves, and its good policy (OOC: and thus good gameplay). But you can't do that and on the other hand smugly claim you're above it.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='Venizelos' date='09 February 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1265758884' post='2171419']
20k tech? lol... we've lost a lot more than that. im not the one making the rep requirements obviously, but if it were up to me it would be way more than 20k tech.
and GoD will certainly ask reps from Polar.



[/quote]

GOD may ask reps of polar, but they certainly don't deserve any.

And also, reps need not be overly destructive, and simply because you think that's what you deserve, does not mean that is actually what you do. MK deserves something, but they don't deserve everything.

Edited February 10, 2010 by astronaut jones

[The AUT]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='09 February 2010 - 07:14 PM' timestamp='1265742880' post='2170923']
[color="#0000FF"]All I see here is "lolAUT" from you fellows over at SuperComplaints. Not much substance to that argument, and you're quite conveniently ignoring his larger message. Of course you would. You see AUT, you've painted a rather inconvenient picture of these folks, one they don't like. Hits a bit too close to their inner character, a bit to truthful, and for dishonest folk, there ain't nothing they hate more than a truth, especially one in regards to themselves. Anyway, keep up the good fight. FAIL is with you all the way.[/color]
[/quote]

I suspected as much. All I got from Hoo was his atypical, "Hey I like you man but you're sooo wrong." Because the only way he can win arguments is by saying you're wrong and he's right. He didn't even respect me enough to respond. But this wasn't unforeseen, in fact, it was expected.

Problem is many agree with me, they even said so. However they're too afraid to speak up and say something the others might not like, this bright hot light.

Also, bigwoody, I wouldn't bother arguing with Venizelos. He just touts the party line looking for acceptance.

Edited February 10, 2010 by The AUT

[joracy]

[quote name='The AUT' date='09 February 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1265771798' post='2171712']
I suspected as much. All I got from Hoo was his atypical, "Hey I like you man but you're sooo wrong." Because the only way he can win arguments is by saying you're wrong and he's right. He didn't even respect me enough to respond. But this wasn't unforeseen, in fact, it was expected.

Problem is many agree with me, they even said so. However they're too afraid to speak up and say something the others might not like, this bright hot light.

Also, bigwoody, I wouldn't bother arguing with Venizelos. He just touts the party line looking for acceptance.
[/quote]

Yes. The only logical conclusion to not gathering as much support as you'd like for your opinion, is that people are too afraid to agree with you.

But really, the root of what I wanted this post to be about was Veni towing the party line? Thats one of the most hilarious things I've ever heard. Veni has his own opinions, and he is anything but quiet about them.

Edited February 10, 2010 by joracy

[Kochers]

[quote name='James Dahl' date='08 February 2010 - 11:20 PM' timestamp='1265689209' post='2169754']
You see this is what I was talking about. "You're not an insider, so shut up."
If you had your way and your side got back on top they could just query his alliance leader and rattle your saber at him so he won't be so open with his opinions on OWF, or you could say things like "Oh really, I wonder if that's OFFICIAL <insert alliance here> policy? hmmm?".

I remember the world your allies created, and I don't want it coming back anytime soon.
[/quote]
Hey, I'm one of Aut's allies! And guess what, I got screwed by the "old world" or whatever you want to call it. I certainly don't want it to come back again.

[quote name='OVERLORD Ikaru' date='08 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265689520' post='2169766']
So they're hypocrites too, don't complain about other people doing exactly what you do. Everyone tries to destroy their enemies, some people are just more classy about it. NPO decimates all opposition for a few years, Karma (including most, if not all, I don't remember exactly, of CnG) destroys NPO, now CnG is trying to pull an NPO, so IRON, TOP, and friends are doing it right back to CnG. I personally don't remember NPO or TOP and co ever putting alliances into terrible reps for anything longer than 9 months (possibly 6?), and TPF even gave white peace last month. And white peace is being given out by the TOP side of things here too. [b]There's a difference between destroying temporarily to teach a lesson and total destruction with the intent of permanently crippling.[/b]
[/quote]
I agree.

[quote name='Penkala' date='08 February 2010 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1265690199' post='2169790']
They've been in control for 3 out of the last 4 years. They aren't trying to re-shape anything, they're trying to return to the 'glory days' where they faced no threats.

NPO very nearly killed the game with their antics. It was an extraordinary situation.

This was a relatively well written thread actually. I just disagree with his points. On this one at least he sets out his arguments.
[/quote]
By "they" I'm assuming your referring to The AUT's allies again. As I said above, I didn't like the old world, and I certainly don't want it coming back.

[quote name='Jgoods45' date='09 February 2010 - 03:09 AM' timestamp='1265702970' post='2170284']
Let me give you a timeline.

Karma War to - December 25th or something. Athens had no idea about the plot to destroy our alliance from the inside out.

December 25th or something afterwards , We found out about it for the first time. We where shocked and very angry. Athens government discussed it amongst ourselves. We saw it as an act of war and we treated it as such. There where talks of talking to TPF first but where dismissed because of the high chance of TPF running to peace mode.
[/quote]
From what I understand, TPF was faced with eternal war at the time that "Zero Hour" was devised. However, it never happend, the war ended, ZH and TPF didn't get along, etc. Given those facts, it would seem a bit of a better decision to talk with your allies first and then confront TPF. You could have also mentioned when you spoke with them that if any nations starting going hippy you would declare war. Sorry, but from my point of view it just doesn't look like that was handled well at all. Its also not the first time you've made a bad decision though. Hopefully this is the end of that.

[quote name='theArrowheadian' date='09 February 2010 - 04:51 AM' timestamp='1265709105' post='2170366']
The lesson isn't over until the evils that formerly beset the game are vanquished.
[/quote]
Yet didn't Vox leave us with the message that evil will never be fully vanquished?

[quote name='Arthur Blair' date='09 February 2010 - 07:30 AM' timestamp='1265718633' post='2170434']
This is an argument raised more by your side than mine, take it up with them. Our claim is not that we're less bad than the NPO, our claim is that [b]we are right[/b]. However, whenever the point is raised our side is quick to agree that INDEED the new way is better than the old way. Do you disagree with that ascertion? You think NPO paying reps is worse than if karma kept them in constant war for another year? Not only is the new way better, it is also the right way.
[/quote]
And by whose definition is the new way the "right way".

[quote name='Jack Diorno' date='09 February 2010 - 08:01 AM' timestamp='1265720494' post='2170451']
[img]http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv210/CNJDAD2/1250177410396.png[/img]

Relevance. Hooray.
In all seriousness your argument seems to revolve around C&G being evil because "MK have too much freedom of speech" and "C&G defends themselves from attacks".
Seriously grab a tissue and have your little sob in the corner somewhere, C&G has not done a single thing to enforce any kind of hegemony upon the world, we have stuck to ourselves and defended our community when we have been attacked.
We have not told other alliances how to act (NpO)
We have not tried to destroy an entire bloc because 'they might be a threat' (TOP/IRON)
If you don't like freedom of speech go join NpO and try rally up another moral crusade to 'better the community'. You are incredibly blind to call C&G a hegemony when we've done nothing outside of laughing at people, you seem to ignore the imperialistic movements being made in your own camp constantly.
Get a clue.
[/quote]
I lol'd Jack. Weren't you just NAAC a bit ago?

[Kzoppistan]

I like the original post, and it sums up my views, as well. However, I am of the mind that the more powerful one group is, the more they will have to use, [b]or be unable to resist using[/b], extreme measures to secure their position and keep others down.

When those who are in the powerful majority now find themselves, soon enough, in the minority and overthrown, those that take their positions will probably repeat the process.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[potato]

[quote name='Kochers' date='11 February 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1265843811' post='2173353']
From what I understand, [b]TPF was faced with eternal war[/b] at the time that "Zero Hour" was devised. However, it never happend, the war ended, ZH and TPF didn't get along, etc. Given those facts, it would seem a bit of a better decision to talk with your allies first and then confront TPF. You could have also mentioned when you spoke with them that if any nations starting going hippy you would declare war. Sorry, but from my point of view it just doesn't look like that was handled well at all. Its also not the first time you've made a bad decision though. Hopefully this is the end of that.
[/quote]

Just a little piece of information for some of you out there: you're wrong. The bolded part is complete and utter !@#$%^&*. Never ever was TPF faced with eternal war. Unless they wanted it, that is. Quite early on had we set up a chan for discussing the terms and they were agreed to (albeit not after some difficult discussions) long before TPF accepted them. TPF knew it, MK knew it, PC knew it, NPO knew it, anyone that needed to know knew it... But facts shouldn't get in the way of trying to paint us as the bad guys.

[Starfox101]

So basically your point is that you fight this war because you think it's morally right, and that your side is just? You also used an example that MK is just as bad as the NPO and friends, while you've fought on NPO and friends side before. Obviously, it's not that bad then, as you'll take a blow for their actions. Sorry, but that point makes no sense, and this was a terrible essay and a poor propaganda piece.

[R3nowned]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='11 February 2010 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1265877507' post='2174344']
So basically your point is that you fight this war because you think it's morally right, and that your side is just? You also used an example that MK is just as bad as the NPO and friends, while you've fought on NPO and friends side before. Obviously, it's not that bad then, as you'll take a blow for their actions. Sorry, but that point makes no sense, and this was a terrible essay and a poor propaganda piece.
[/quote]
In other words, once evil, always evil. Right, gotcha. For your information, there are many on that side of the treaty web that fought next to NPO in curbstomps and such. Are they still just as evil? No? I thought so. If this is a misunderstanding, please do tell. Bit sleepy

[quote]Just a little piece of information for some of you out there: you're wrong. The bolded part is complete and utter !@#$%^&*. Never ever was TPF faced with eternal war. Unless they wanted it, that is. Quite early on had we set up a chan for discussing the terms and they were agreed to (albeit not after some difficult discussions) long before TPF accepted them. TPF knew it, MK knew it, PC knew it, NPO knew it, anyone that needed to know knew it... But facts shouldn't get in the way of trying to paint us as the bad guys.[/quote]
NPO was faced with eternal war = TPF was faced with eternal war. Didn't you read mhawk's decision to stick it out for as long as Pacifica was fighting?

Edited February 11, 2010 by R3nowned

[der_ko]

[quote name='R3nowned' date='11 February 2010 - 11:01 AM' timestamp='1265882479' post='2174423']
NPO was faced with eternal war = TPF was faced with eternal war. Didn't you read mhawk's decision to stick it out for as long as Pacifica was fighting?
[/quote]
I will wage war upon TOP until the moment the NPO crowns me their emperor. NPO is holding TOP in eternal war.

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='R3nowned' date='11 February 2010 - 03:01 AM' timestamp='1265882479' post='2174423']
In other words, once evil, always evil. Right, gotcha. For your information, there are many on that side of the treaty web that fought next to NPO in curbstomps and such. Are they still just as evil? No? I thought so. If this is a misunderstanding, please do tell. Bit sleepy


NPO was faced with eternal war = TPF was faced with eternal war. Didn't you read mhawk's decision to stick it out for as long as Pacifica was fighting?
[/quote]

Please enlighten us and show us where you seen any [b]government[/b] offical (not general membership) of a Karma Alliance on the NPO front state that they intended to keep the NPO in an eternal war. I am certain that you will find nothing.

[Starfox101]

[quote name='R3nowned' date='11 February 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1265882479' post='2174423']
In other words, once evil, always evil. Right, gotcha. For your information, there are many on that side of the treaty web that fought next to NPO in curbstomps and such. Are they still just as evil? No? I thought so. If this is a misunderstanding, please do tell. Bit sleepy
[/quote]
Yes, I am well aware of that. However, those alliances made up for it by eventually making amends with overtures to help the beaten, and defeated the tyrant. Our side has truly shown change, while your side can only claim to have changed. I don't buy into the whole "We got a beating, we learned our lesson."

You can go on and on about how evil our side is, because a few of us beat on TPF, but that's a different story, different day. At least there was a CB in that war.

[Arthur Blair]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='11 February 2010 - 11:15 AM' timestamp='1265886939' post='2174492']
Yes, I am well aware of that. However, those alliances made up for it by eventually making amends with overtures to help the beaten, and defeated the tyrant. Our side has truly shown change, while your side can only claim to have changed. I don't buy into the whole "We got a beating, we learned our lesson."

You can go on and on about how evil our side is, because a few of us beat on TPF, but that's a different story, different day. At least there was a CB in that war.
[/quote]

What you fail to understand here is that everything they do, we are accountable for.

[R3nowned]

[quote name='Jgoods45' date='11 February 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1265883377' post='2174442']
Please enlighten us and show us where you seen any [b]government[/b] offical (not general membership) of a Karma Alliance on the NPO front state that they intended to keep the NPO in an eternal war. I am certain that you will find nothing.
[/quote]
I'm not stuffed going back through 10's of thousands of threads looking for it, but there were terms designed to keep NPO in perpetual war. They were later dropped though.

[quote]Yes, I am well aware of that. However, those alliances made up for it by eventually making amends with overtures to help the beaten, and defeated the tyrant. Our side has truly shown change, while your side can only claim to have changed. I don't buy into the whole "We got a beating, we learned our lesson."

You can go on and on about how evil our side is, because a few of us beat on TPF, but that's a different story, different day. At least there was a CB in that war.[/quote]
Sure, there would obviously be trust issues. We're at war with each other. Yet I saw Sparta holding Legion to 600mil in reps, which was denied, and dropped.

I'm not saying your side is evil, but you really can't call anyone on this planet evil, as it's all just different points of view. People change, and governments change. A lot of gov on this side of the treaty web are new faces with new perspectives. You can't accuse us of calling you evil when you're calling us evil in the same sentence using the same argument.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='11 February 2010 - 02:38 AM' timestamp='1265877507' post='2174344']
So basically your point is that you fight this war because you think it's morally right, and that your side is just?
[/quote]
Everyone in this war is involved as an extension of the Polar-\m/ War. Some like to e-lawyer otherwise (OOC: I will personally write a letter of recommendation if Denial ever wants a job at Fox News working talking points), but we know what our intentions were, and are fighting for a just peace that doesn't leave anyone out to dry. Some want to see history rewritten and to have us destroyed outright. Fighting against that is indeed morally right.