Why I stand where I stand

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Zero-One' date='08 February 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1265689776' post='2169770']
If I don't insult you in public, then do not insult me. Don't be surprised to get slapped if you do. Is that too much of a concept to understand?
[/quote]

This would be the "Freedom From" concept I was discussing earlier.

[Ikaru]

[quote name='Andrew425' date='08 February 2010 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1265689901' post='2169778']
"I personally don't remember NPO and co ever putting alliances into terrible reps for anything longer than 9 months"

They have,

Our side hasn't
[/quote]
See: Karma War. You have.

As for NPO and co doing so, I'm going off my personal memory, which I admit is very crappy in terms of how things were back when NPO had power.

[Tromp]

[quote name='The AUT' date='09 February 2010 - 05:26 AM' timestamp='1265689587' post='2169767']
Oh look a nit-pik type ordeal for Tromp not reading the entire thread and picking out certain things to try and pick apart parts of the essay, this will surely go over well.
[/quote]
I read your entire post. Ofcourse, if you want to argue the things I highlighted then please go ahead... However, I find it kind of insulting that you post something like this in response. No, sad actually. I had expected better.

[The AUT]

[quote name='OneBallMan' date='09 February 2010 - 04:32 AM' timestamp='1265689948' post='2169779']
You are wrong. The CB used against TPF by Athens was and is one that Londo et al truly, truly, believed in. I say this as the person who had to listen to those fine persons tell me how valid it was, over and over and over and over and over again in peace negotiations, while the diplomats in the room told them to drop it, again and again. While we can debate the validity of that CB, the faith that Athens had in it was 100% genuine. I can't speak for the other alliances, as it was never a sticking point in discussions.
[/quote]

Just because the motivations were validd, doesn't mean the CB was. 6 months after the fact for a plan that fell apart and that wasn't even worth mentioning? Really now? If someone on this side of the grass pulled that stunt we'd picking our teeth from off the ground.

Edited February 9, 2010 by The AUT

[Penkala]

[quote name='The AUT' date='08 February 2010 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1265688168' post='2169712']
I won't deny I am often frustrated with "my side" of the treaty web. However in the end, I know what they do is out of good conscience. They try their hardest to give themselves a chance to re-shape Planet Bob. But so long as there are those who try to re-shape the planet, there are those who try to keep it the same. [/quote]

They've been in control for 3 out of the last 4 years. They aren't trying to re-shape anything, they're trying to return to the 'glory days' where they faced no threats.

[quote]The likes of CnG and MK who appear to have the God-given right to say and do as they like without repercussion due to some sort of self-entitlement.[/quote]

What? They are bad for saying what they want? Then so are you and so am I.

[quote] Using the same old rhetoric to provoke the other side into a response every time. "It's purplol I am so clever [insert smug]" or something such as, "let's see TPF nail itself to a cross this time." Being able to spin anything and everything so that if you do against them, you are wrong. Does this sound familiar?[/quote]

Are you serious? Your side's been screaming for a year that anything that looks remotely maybe possibly bad is THE END OF THE WORLD because YOU'RE WORSE THAN THE HEGEMONY. YOU guys are the ones advocating a tactic of "repeat, repeat, repeat" regardless of the validity of the statement. YOU are the ones who keep bringing out the same tired lines in every topic about the war (examples: "<alliance on our side> is kicking your butt otherwise you wouldn't have brought in your allies lolol", "you guys are worse than NPO" (for requiring factories to be demolished))


[quote]It wasn't that their allies wanted to avoid war, most of us wanted TPF to take the reparations and felt they deserved them. However TPF wanted to set a new precedent to let those who attacked them get off lightly.[quote]

Clearly they did it for benevolent reasons and not because they thought their alliance and their allies would have gotten their teeth stomped in. Right, Aut. It was to try to CHANGE THE WORLD for the better.

[quote]What was MK's response to the recent attacks by TOP and IRON? A promise to, "destroy TOP and IRON so that they never pose such a threat to CnG again"? Doesn't the likes of Athens and Poison Clan pose a greater threat to MK and CnG on a weekly basis? This was merely an opportunistic argument to give CnG the excuse to do what it's doing. None of you can say CnG had no intention on entering against Polaris last war, we all knew where they stood. [/quote]

Their response was that they would not give them peace until the imminent threat to their alliance's safe existence had been diminished. If someone's willing to pre-empt you in that way because of who you are, and you have a chance to remove the threat, you'd be a fool not to.

[quote]Well let me ask you this, did anyone in MK argue when NSO entered on their side of the last war in defense of them without a treaty? It is simply a way for CnG to spin any argument that it needs to gain the public support of its allies, who according to MagicalTrevor is "half of Planet Bob."[/quote]

NSO didn't attack an uninvolved bloc. The alliances they attacked were already involved in the war (if I remember correctly) and they countered them without a treaty.

[quote]And so this new CN is better. Okay. But it's funny how we speak of how bad the last Hegemony was compared with the new system in place. Why is it funny you ask? Because we speak about how much better Planet Bob was better than how it used to be under the NPO regime. So the measuring stick is not how good this new CN is, rather how good this new CN is compared to the one run by NPO and company. And so when this argument is used, all of a sudden it's okay to request heavy reparations from alliances who have fought merely to defend their friends in TPF and Echelon. [/quote]

What? You mean the TPF war that ended in white peace? What are you talking about?

[quote]It's okay to tax the NPO 300,000 in tech and some 8 billion in money because [i]it's not as bad[/i] as what they did. However holding an alliance in captivity for a year having its legs cut from underneath them is the same thing this planet did to GATO and GPA. And many argue that the NPO handed out these punishments, but do you realize by doing the same you are the same as them? Truly, you are the same. However, NPO never handed out such reparations. You wanted to teach Planet Bob a lesson, and we heard it loud and clear.[/quote]

NPO very nearly killed the game with their antics. It was an extraordinary situation.

[quote]In this thread, we once again see why Misr is never given the job of propaganda head for his coalition. He really should be chained and muzzled.[/quote]

This was a relatively well written thread actually. I just disagree with his points. On this one at least he sets out his arguments.

[quote]See: Karma War. You have.[/quote]

No, we didn't. It's not our fault NPO chose to drag reps out for several reasons. The reps were payable in under 6 months.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Penkala

[Gamma Rho]

I pride myself on the fact that I'm just as bad as NPO were to be honest.. They had all the good times with reps, viceroys and disbandments. It truly was the golden days of Cybernations and what a shame it would be if we couldn't also experience these joys because of some whiny little goodie-two-shoes.

Seriously though harsh terms make for good grudges which makes for good drama, and lord what would CN be without good drama? A nation building game, heh.

[Andrew425]

[quote name='OVERLORD Ikaru' date='09 February 2010 - 04:33 AM' timestamp='1265690030' post='2169784']
See: Karma War. You have.

As for NPO and co doing so, I'm going off my personal memory, which I admit is very crappy in terms of how things were back when NPO had power.
[/quote]


6 months isn't 9

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=63887

[Mack Truck]

Where did you receive all that intel on Athens' inner workings? Your back-side?

Also, you're actually of the opinion that we were going to lose the war against TPF? The numbers were nearly the same as this time around, except there wouldn't have been a third front messing with our side. TPF wasn't setting any precedent. I'm not going to say our side did either, but using your logic we did.

Lastly, purple is lol-worthy and Mhawk did make himself out to be a martyr. Is it arrogant/evil/tyrannical to be honest?

[Ogaden]

[quote name='OVERLORD Ikaru' date='08 February 2010 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1265690030' post='2169784']
See: Karma War. You have.

As for NPO and co doing so, I'm going off my personal memory, which I admit is very crappy in terms of how things were back when NPO had power.
[/quote]

You probably weren't paying attention, and I doubt your leaders pointed out any of their abuses to you.

[The AUT]

[quote name='Gamma Rho' date='09 February 2010 - 04:39 AM' timestamp='1265690360' post='2169793']
I pride myself on the fact that I'm just as bad as NPO were to be honest.. They had all the good times with reps, viceroys and disbandments. It truly was the golden days of Cybernations and what a shame it would be if we couldn't also experience these joys because of some whiny little goodie-two-shoes.

Seriously though harsh terms make for good grudges which makes for good drama, and lord what would CN be without good drama? A nation building game, heh.
[/quote]

Oh looks like a re-roll. How are you, who did you used to be?

[Penkala]

[quote name='The AUT' date='08 February 2010 - 11:42 PM' timestamp='1265690576' post='2169798']
Oh looks like a re-roll. How are you, who did you used to be?
[/quote]

After just bashing people for not giving you a second chance and referring to you as Misr you pull this? You really are a piece of work...

[The AUT]

[quote name='Penkala' date='09 February 2010 - 04:47 AM' timestamp='1265690821' post='2169802']
After just bashing people for not giving you a second chance and referring to you as Misr you pull this? You really are a piece of work...
[/quote]

Heh, funny how you're so quick to jump on a simply comment and question. I actually wanted to know who he was so I could converse with him and take his viewpoint. Not to bash his former persona. Try harder.

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='The AUT' date='08 February 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1265688168' post='2169712']
Athens did what it could because it could do what it could.[/quote]

Didn't read all of it, but I'm glad I at least read this far. That's classic.


Personally, I don't care what side any individual takes. Your problem AUT is that you defend your side so poorly.

[Ikaru]

[quote name='Andrew425' date='08 February 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1265690412' post='2169794']
6 months isn't 9

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=63887
[/quote]
A minimum of 6 months or until reps are paid isn't 6 months either. Those terms were meant to cripple NPO for a LOT longer than 6 months, and you know it. At least one CnG alliance leader I won't name pushed through an earlier set of terms asking to have a few weeks to have unopposed open season on NPO after signing terms before they actually got peace. Don't think they wouldn't have kept that term if they could get away with it.

[quote]You probably weren't paying attention, and I doubt your leaders pointed out any of their abuses to you.[/quote]

I wasn't paying attention, no, but then again I had no reason to. We WERE sort of on NPO's side, even if we weren't MDP'd with them or anything. Did I think they were awesome? Not really, I knew they did bad things. But that was the way of the game back then, the major political powers did whatever they wanted. Apparently it still is, but people like to pretend it isn't.

Edited February 9, 2010 by OVERLORD Ikaru

[The AUT]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' date='09 February 2010 - 04:52 AM' timestamp='1265691152' post='2169812']
Didn't read all of it, but I'm glad I at least read this far. That's classic.


Personally, I don't care what side any individual takes. Your problem AUT is that you defend your side so poorly.
[/quote]

And Athens declared on Knights of Ni because it couldn't? My problem is not that I defend my side poorly, it's that you fail to see from a different perspective. If you knew how people on this side felt, how would you be able to say what you are saying with such certainty? Again, you can't.

Edited February 9, 2010 by The AUT

[Andrew425]

[quote name='OVERLORD Ikaru' date='09 February 2010 - 04:55 AM' timestamp='1265691312' post='2169824']
A minimum of 6 months or until reps are paid isn't 6 months either. Those terms were meant to cripple NPO for a LOT longer than 6 months, and you know it. At least one CnG alliance leader I won't name pushed through an earlier set of terms asking to have a few weeks to have unopposed open season on NPO after signing terms before they actually got peace. Don't think they wouldn't have kept that term if they could get away with it.

[/quote]


Kinda like what NPO did to everyone else.

hmm karma...

[Valerius]

The idea that there was any sort of freedom, 'from' or 'to', under the Hegemony is completely ludicrous.

[Tomcat]

[quote name='James Dahl' date='08 February 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1265688616' post='2169730']
AUT, your side of the web you defend fights for "Freedom [b]From[/b]", freedom from people saying stuff you don't like, freedom from people you don't like gaining power or influence, freedom from upstart alliances who aren't in the "winner's circle" having a say in world affairs, and most of all, freedom from threats to what power, influence and authority you do have.

I got tired of it, maybe you have an endless capacity to fight for "Freedom From", but I switched a long time ago to being a supporter of "Freedom [b]To[/b]".
[/quote]

I couldn't possibly have said it better myself.

[Ikaru]

[quote name='Andrew425' date='08 February 2010 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1265691798' post='2169853']
Kinda like what NPO did to everyone else.

hmm karma...
[/quote]
The first part maybe. The second part no. Never before had I ever heard of an offer of terms involving weeks of unopposed war before getting peace from ANYONE. They very fact that they made such an offer at one point is disgusting.

[Ogaden]

[quote name='President Kent' date='08 February 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1265692034' post='2169876']
The idea that there was any sort of freedom, 'from' or 'to', under the Hegemony is completely ludicrous.
[/quote]

There was unlimited "Freedom From" for the Hegemony and hardly any of either Freedom for anyone else.

[Andrew425]

"The first part maybe. The second part no. Never before had I ever heard of an offer of terms involving weeks of unopposed war before getting peace from ANYONE. They very fact that they made such an offer at one point is disgusting."


NPO attacked FAN a few days before getting out of their surrender terms.

And who did you here that from, and are they a large alliance?

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='The AUT' date='08 February 2010 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1265691447' post='2169834']
And Athens declared on Knights of Ni because it couldn't? [b]My problem is not that I defend my side poorly[/b], it's that you fail to see from a different perspective. If you knew how people on this side felt, how would you be able to say what you are saying with such certainty? Again, you can't.
[/quote]


Actually, AUT ... this is exactly your problem. Posters like yourself, Alterego, Haflinger, and the IRON "quantity over quality" brigade hurt the credibility of several solid posters on your side of the fence. Few, if any, take you and your cohorts named above very seriously and it is mostly due to threads (and subsequent posts) such as this one. At times I find myself actually feeling sorry for the individuals over there who actually make valid and great points that are backed up with well thought out and logical posts. It is truly a shame that their work is constantly brought down by you and the posters that I listed above.

You and I have always been cool and you know that, but this thread is pure drivel. You are trying way too hard and are reaching to the point that you aren't making any sense. Simple logic has been abandoned and replaced with sensationalism, uninformed opinions, and poor propaganda. Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop posting.

[Ikaru]

[quote name='Andrew425' date='08 February 2010 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1265692258' post='2169906']
"The first part maybe. The second part no. Never before had I ever heard of an offer of terms involving weeks of unopposed war before getting peace from ANYONE. They very fact that they made such an offer at one point is disgusting."


NPO attacked FAN a few days before getting out of their surrender terms.

And who did you here that from, and are they a large alliance?
[/quote]
Completely different. Attacking a few days before someone gets OUT of surrender terms is unrelated to including more destruction in the terms themselves. Although what you bring up is bad, and something I had not heard of before/remembered, it is not as bad as including further war in surrender terms.

Edited February 9, 2010 by OVERLORD Ikaru

[Ogaden]

[quote name='OVERLORD Ikaru' date='08 February 2010 - 09:20 PM' timestamp='1265692834' post='2169945']
Completely different. Attacking a few days before someone gets OUT of surrender terms is unrelated to including more destruction in the terms themselves. Although what you bring up is bad, and something I had not heard of before/remembered, it is not as bad as including further war in surrender terms.
[/quote]

Are you seriously claiming VietFAN II wasn't so bad?

...

Seriously?

[Valerius]

[quote name='Zero-One' date='09 February 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1265689776' post='2169770']
If I don't insult you in public, then do not insult me. Don't be surprised to get slapped if you do. Is that too much of a concept to understand?
[/quote]
I don't think the comprehension of the policy in theory was ever the issue.

[quote name='James Dahl' date='09 February 2010 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1265692200' post='2169897']
There was unlimited "Freedom From" for the Hegemony and hardly any of either Freedom for anyone else.
[/quote]
Yes, see: 'under' the Hegemony. But determining precisely who made up the Hegemony and who lived under it is another matter. Therefore blanket statements are preferable.