lakerzz8 Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' date='31 January 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1264960827' post='2147877'] Maybe when everyone stops !@#$%*ing and moaning about the awful, uncomfortable, terrible, odious position--excuse me while I wipe a tear--they were dragged kicking and screaming into then I'll stop bringing it up. STA knew what they were getting into, Tyga's not a helmet-wearing retard, he picked one set of allies over another in a 100% discretionary war of imperialist aggression. So everyone please shut the hell up about the awkward positioning anywhere except your private halls when it might be neccessary to explain to members why they're helping some allies and not others. [/quote] Polaris was attacked. We have a treaty with them. We came in to defend them. What do you not understand about that? If both MK and Polaris were attacked on the same night and were on opposite sides than it would have been a different choice to make. But for us to have simply sat out when one of our closest and longest allies gets attacked is not something we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Felix von Agnu' date='31 January 2010 - 12:43 PM' timestamp='1264959820' post='2147848'] I think a bit back Pezstar said something about disliking Londo more than Athens as a whole. I'm sure a lot of you are good people, but Athens as a whole has done some things that people rather disliked (the raiding of an entire alliance for example). I really find it interesting how some people think they should stick up for their allies' allies. The only obligations come with friendship/treaties in my opinion (Of course the argument could be made that if two alliances are truely friends defense is not an obligation but an honor). [/quote] Well, you do have an obligation to keep your allies safe, so putting one of their allies in harms way would be counter productive. So Athens has made some mistakes, so have a lot of other alliances. My offer still stands. Drop by #Athens sometime, and I can almost guarantee we'll be able to move past Athens' previous miscalculations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 I don't see how people are getting off judging STA here. I've had my differences with them before, but I've never once doubted their commitment to their allies. The fact remains that STA was one of the few alliances to handle this whole dumb situation with some actual class and reason. They have nothing to apologize for and they don't owe any of you a single damn thing. This whole thread is absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix von Agnu Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Mathias' date='31 January 2010 - 02:14 PM' timestamp='1264965258' post='2148033'] Well, you do have an obligation to keep your allies safe, so putting one of their allies in harms way would be counter productive. So Athens has made some mistakes, so have a lot of other alliances. My offer still stands. Drop by #Athens sometime, and I can almost guarantee we'll be able to move past Athens' previous miscalculations. [/quote] I agree putting and allies ally in danger would compromise the security of your immediate ally, but in today's world of chaining treaties and the treaty web, you would have to consider the long chain of treaties that could bring you ally into harms way. Both C&G allies of STA were already in a war, so it isn't like they would be dragged into the conflict anyways. All I see is STA trying to work damage away from their allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='HeinousOne' date='31 January 2010 - 11:26 AM' timestamp='1264955163' post='2147716'] He makes a statement about the fact that irc comments will get dumped and you go and dump one. Well played Uhtred. There is no way around being opportunistic, when you are you simply are. It does not make you appear to be the man with all the info, just makes it look like you were idling in the right place. [/quote] He quoted that log [i]from the OP[/i]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackSkellington Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Mathias' date='31 January 2010 - 02:14 PM' timestamp='1264965258' post='2148033'] Well, you do have an obligation to keep your allies safe, so putting one of their allies in harms way would be counter productive. So Athens has made some mistakes, so have a lot of other alliances. My offer still stands. Drop by #Athens sometime, and I can almost guarantee we'll be able to move past Athens' previous miscalculations. [/quote] My opinion comes from personal experience. And let me tell ya...You guys suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Verteidiger Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 This topic to me sets apart the dumb, the smart, and the clueless really well. Very scary how well it does it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' date='31 January 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1264960827' post='2147877'] Maybe when everyone stops !@#$%*ing and moaning about the awful, uncomfortable, terrible, odious position--excuse me while I wipe a tear--they were dragged kicking and screaming into then I'll stop bringing it up. STA knew what they were getting into, Tyga's not a helmet-wearing retard, he picked one set of allies over another in a 100% discretionary war of imperialist aggression. So everyone please shut the hell up about the awkward positioning anywhere except your private halls when it might be neccessary to explain to members why they're helping some allies and not others. [/quote] You are completely mischaracterizing the entire reason for the war. It feels like you just go after the larger of two feuding parties in order to keep yourself in the news. It's getting old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Glaucon Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Mathias' date='31 January 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1264958581' post='2147816'] You'll probably find out that we're pretty nice guys. [/quote] Oh yeah, this thread is giving plenty of evidence to support that claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desperado Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='rsoxbronco1' date='31 January 2010 - 01:37 PM' timestamp='1264963066' post='2147964'] Yeah this whole topic is just...well... [img]http://vanityofvanities.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/awkward-turtle.jpg[/img] I hereby ban all ODN members below the rank of Sec Gen from posting in this thread. [/quote] Tough love for everyone except Arsenal. Shame ODN couldn't post this themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForPointSix Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 [quote name='Methrage' date='31 January 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1264961471' post='2147906'] It was nice fighting alongside you guys while it lasted, almost felt like frostbite was still around at first. [/quote] Frostbite may not be an agreement written on paper any more. But STA still has much for the NSO. That's why you still see so many of our members with the Frostbite sig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurion Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 If there's one thing I think we can all agree on, it's that the war shoved just about everyone into awkward spots. I'm not so hot on the whole hitting Athens bit but beyond that STA handled this about as well as they could've imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' date='31 January 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1264960424' post='2147864'] Blah blah blah, Upright Tigers Brigade blah blah o nardblarg? Maybe you shouldn't have entered Polaris' moral imperialist crusade in the first place. [/quote] We didn't enter a crusade, we defended a treaty partner that we know would defend us no matter what. We saw plenty of allies with reasons why they couldnt defend us but we know there is that one ally that is there for us No Matter What. That means even if they do not like an action of ours that got us into a war. They will be there for us and I know this to be true. That is the type of ally I would be alright with defending even if I am not fully behind their actions that caused us to have to defend them. It is what you do for a Good Friend. You are there for them no matter what and you work out the differences of opinion afterwards. I would have thought you thought more about such loyalty. Guess you just need another demon to preach about. [quote name='Schattenmann' date='31 January 2010 - 06:00 PM' timestamp='1264960827' post='2147877'] Maybe when everyone stops !@#$%*ing and moaning about the awful, uncomfortable, terrible, odious position--excuse me while I wipe a tear--they were dragged kicking and screaming into then I'll stop bringing it up. STA knew what they were getting into, Tyga's not a helmet-wearing retard, he picked one set of allies over another in a 100% discretionary war of imperialist aggression. So everyone please shut the hell up about the awkward positioning anywhere except your private halls when it might be neccessary to explain to members why they're helping some allies and not others. [/quote] War of Imperialist Aggression. Hilarious. Yes this is now definately Schattenmann working in a Propagandic manner. So sorry that we stuck up for an ally that we know would stand up for us no matter what. Seems we chose right too by the way everything has worked out. I realize you think you are pretty important but not quite important as you think and no words from The Schat are going to deter STA from the course it has always tred. [quote name='Ragashingo' date='31 January 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1264977888' post='2148501'] You are completely mischaracterizing the entire reason for the war. It feels like you just go after the larger of two feuding parties in order to keep yourself in the news. It's getting old. [/quote] Yeah, I gotta say it does have that feel now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 [quote name='ForPointSix' date='31 January 2010 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1264981734' post='2148632'] Frostbite may not be an agreement written on paper any more. But STA still has much for the NSO. That's why you still see so many of our members with the Frostbite sig. [/quote] Thanks, I appreciate the support members of STA has shown. I realize it would of been hard for you guys to justify staying in the war once NpO declared peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinousOne Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 [quote name='Methrage' date='01 February 2010 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1264989166' post='2149004'] Thanks, I appreciate the support members of STA has shown. I realize it would of been hard for you guys to justify staying in the war once NpO declared peace. [/quote] How can we not support you guys? You were the only ones to declare in support of us and we do not have a treaty anymore. While this secondary war still shows how our paths are separate enough for a treaty to not be in the works but I highly doubt your act during this war will be forgotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 Perhaps if Athens weren't so busy running around being a thorn in people's sides, constantly needing to be bailed out, and generally acting in a manner which makes them a liability we wouldn't have had to have that particular discussion at all. o/ STA May the Year of the Tiger bring you prosperity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atilla Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 [quote name='PrideAssassin' date='01 February 2010 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1265014057' post='2150171'] Perhaps if Athens weren't so busy running around being a thorn in people's sides, constantly needing to be bailed out, and generally acting in a manner which makes them a liability we wouldn't have had to have that particular discussion at all. o/ STA May the Year of the Tiger bring you prosperity. [/quote] Well, seeing as you brought it up... I wonder if TOP are finally beginning to realize what a liability IRON have been to them.. If FOK, Gremlins, Kronos and Umbrella had been with TOP in this war then their stranglehold over the top-tier nations would have been absolute and unbreakable. Instead, TOP get little more than a bloated carcass (that I guess happens to bring along it's maggots, joy!) in way of relief. I guess what you guys lack in military ability you more than make up for in forum presence though, right! Yeah, you guys are definitely helping your cause on the forum that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalaskan Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) Pez, You have swayed your views at the whim of the "popular" crowd since I have known you. To your credit you have held your alliance over them. But it is convenient to say "hit Athens, and draw in C&G" and we woulda probably been good with fighting more, when Polar backed down. If it were the other way, and Polar stayed in, I have a feeling you would be singing a different tune. Que Sera.. Edited February 1, 2010 by Chalaskan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 [quote name='Zombie Glaucon' date='31 January 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1264980289' post='2148585'] Oh yeah, this thread is giving plenty of evidence to support that claim. [/quote] Well then let me rephrase. We're pretty nice guys when not discussing a public call for our destruction. We get a little bent out of shape over that. Silly us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pezstar Posted February 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 [quote name='Chalaskan' date='01 February 2010 - 04:15 AM' timestamp='1265015750' post='2150183'] Pez, You have swayed your views at the whim of the "popular" crowd since I have known you. To your credit you have held your alliance over them. But it is convenient to say "hit Athens, and draw in C&G" and we woulda probably been good with fighting more, when Polar backed down. If it were the other way, and Polar stayed in, I have a feeling you would be singing a different tune. Que Sera.. [/quote] What in the world are you talking about? Please provide either examples or a shovel. It's getting mighty deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poyplemonkeys Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 I think this could have been handled better by STA, in particular Uhtred's comments. I hold no love for Athens at all, but to encourage, or 'cheer' for attacks against an MADP partner of my ally is something completely different. None of Nemesis' treaties explicitly chain, but it would take something unprecedented to prevent us from defending them. It was nice of Londo to come in and add credence to the claims he's a dangerous leader though. What STA said in private is one thing, to publically tell someone your friend is obligated to defend that their actions won't be forgotten is something else entirely. Nobody comes out of this thread smelling of roses, but at least STA acknowledges their actions weren't entirely tasteful, and congratulations for that realization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFish Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 [quote name='PrideAssassin' date='01 February 2010 - 03:47 AM' timestamp='1265014057' post='2150171'] Perhaps if Athens weren't so busy running around being a thorn in people's sides, constantly needing to be bailed out, and generally acting in a manner which makes them a liability we wouldn't have had to have that particular discussion at all. o/ STA May the Year of the Tiger bring you prosperity. [/quote] And here I thought this thread was about RON completely ignoring STA's wishes and attacking all of C&G instead of just the parts that wouldn't require their defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 [quote name='pezstar' date='01 February 2010 - 09:58 AM' timestamp='1265036305' post='2150466'] What in the world are you talking about? Please provide either examples or a shovel. It's getting mighty deep. [/quote] Don't mind him. He hasn't exactly been objective for a while now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shodemofi-NPO Posted February 1, 2010 Report Share Posted February 1, 2010 [quote name='NoFish' date='01 February 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1265050480' post='2150826'] And here I thought this thread was about RON completely ignoring STA's wishes and attacking all of C&G instead of just the parts that wouldn't require their defense. [/quote] Yes, clearly you know our alliance intimately. We run from every war, haven't you noticed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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