Official Announcement from The Order of the Paradox

[Fernando12]

[quote name='flak attack' date='31 January 2010 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1264955586' post='2147724']
And perhaps your inability to let common sense overcome your ego is why no one is worried about your alliance's military
[/quote]

I should take my ball and go home for that comment but hey all alliances start off small, so here's to the future.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Fernando12

[necAnt]

how about we drop the peacemode argument, as it was allready beaten to death within the last 4 weeks, if i have to guess, each alliance partakin in this war has ppl in peace, so noone should use this argument. not to mention, that i agree with the ppl claiming that pm is an strategy in war, and we all know, in war and love evrything is allowed.
we all should get over it, enjoy our new, rising casualty stats, and have some fun.

thx guys

[HellAngel]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 January 2010 - 05:05 PM' timestamp='1264953923' post='2147673']
Too bad they weren't in the war yet. It's funny that a bloc that had no DoW's posted in the conflict gets hit out of no where. What you guys did wasn't military strategy, it was paranoia induced stupidity and your attempts to paint it otherwise make you look even more so. Especially after the ridicule you have given others over pre-emption in the past.

Just admit you made a tactical mistake. And that you are advising your allies to make the same tactical mistake 4 times over. DECLARING ON A BLOC AS A WHOLE DOESN'T MAKE ANY STRATEGIC SENSE. I don't understand why you guys don't get it. You all seem pretty damn intelligent, especially the former Gremlins and yet you go and do this? Who is running your war room? Chris Kaos?

EDIT: Haflinger agrees with me. HAFLINGER! We hardly agree on anything publicly. Yet on this we are on the same page.
[/quote]

Dude i know this might come as a shocker to you, but i totally agree (and also said that before, but i dont hold it against you to not have read everything). I was just taking up your spin and ridiculed it
From a military nation-to-nation aspect, it was a good strategy since the aggressor always gets to pick the target. From a political standpoint... well... you better ask LM what he was thinking, but i also have to point out that i knew of the tactic and did nothing to stop it. I just thought it wont matter for the wider aspects of the war since everyone was already engaged anyway. Nobody could know Grub was going to peace out. Not even NpO know NpO was going to peace out.

[Lord Brendan]

Yeah, I'd say it was a pretty bad strategy decision turned into a catastrophically bad strategy decision by Polar and \m/ agreeing to peace.

I still don't understand what your goal was. Catch C&G off guard? But you thought they were waiting for you anyway...

Edited January 31, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[LiquidMercury]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 January 2010 - 10:05 AM' timestamp='1264953923' post='2147673']
Too bad they weren't in the war yet. It's funny that a bloc that had no DoW's posted in the conflict gets hit out of no where. What you guys did wasn't military strategy, it was paranoia induced stupidity and your attempts to paint it otherwise make you look even more so. Especially after the ridicule you have given others over pre-emption in the past.

Just admit you made a tactical mistake. And that you are advising your allies to make the same tactical mistake 4 times over. DECLARING ON A BLOC AS A WHOLE DOESN'T MAKE ANY STRATEGIC SENSE. I don't understand why you guys don't get it. You all seem pretty damn intelligent, especially the former Gremlins and yet you go and do this? Who is running your war room? Chris Kaos?

EDIT: Haflinger agrees with me. HAFLINGER! We hardly agree on anything publicly. Yet on this we are on the same page.
[/quote]

Regarding tactics. One of the most military viable strategies is target selection. By us pre-emping, we allow ourselves to have the targets we want, spread our NS the way we want, and have a more controlled situation. Does it bring more NS against us in the long run, most likely. Is it a lot of fun? Absolutely. Sometimes you just have to have a good ole slug fest, we believe we can take it, time will tell of course.

[LiquidMercury]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='31 January 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1264961752' post='2147917']
Yeah, I'd say it was a pretty bad strategy decision turned into a catastrophically bad strategy decision by Polar and \m/ agreeing to peace.

I still don't understand what your goal was. Catch C&G off guard? But you thought they were waiting for you anyway...
[/quote]

a. your sig is sweet, even if you're on the other side.
b. Though they were aware of us attacking, archon himself has said he never thought we'd truly go through with it, I doubt many actually believed that.
c. Target selection is paramount in a war. Sun Tzu once said to bring the war to your enemy, do not let them bring it to you. By doing so, we have a cost-benefit analysis situation which can be broken down in terms of economics. If the marginal cost of pre-emping, out-weighs the marginal-benefit in terms of political damage and possible NS loss, then we have indeed made the most terrible of errors. If the marginal benefit > marginal cost then it was a good decision. This of course does not take in the opportunity costs associated with said decision. (Yes I know everyone is spouting, opportunists around). The opportunity costs associated with this decision come down to whether or not this is the best situation for us to take on CnG or if there would be another opportunity that may be beneficial. I would say that this was more beneficial then the TPF scenario in terms of NS and benefit for the political system as a whole (I hope this truly does make people realize how messed up our web is and do something about it, as of now FOK is really the only ones to have done so and I commend them for it, even if it does leave TOP in a worse position). I am by no means saying that we are opportunists in regards to this situation and did not factor that into our thinking (at least the politic people probably didn't, I always factor opportunity costs into any decision I make both here and in RL). Just like I view the opportunity cost of attacking umbrella or argent or any of our allies, it was simply another piece of the puzzle, another piece of data.
d. Only time will tell if this was indeed the right move or the wrong one. Just because something appears to be off at first doesn't make it wrong. One thing I think we can all agree on, is that it was the right move in terms of bringing more enjoyment to all, something that was seriously lacking.

[Pablo Monkey]

By the amount of alliances CnG are sending in after you guys you should feel honored they are that scared of you. Good luck TOP.

[AirMe]

[quote name='LiquidMercury' date='31 January 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1264962114' post='2147930']
Regarding tactics. One of the most military viable strategies is target selection. By us pre-emping, we allow ourselves to have the targets we want, spread our NS the way we want, and have a more controlled situation. Does it bring more NS against us in the long run, most likely. Is it a lot of fun? Absolutely. Sometimes you just have to have a good ole slug fest, we believe we can take it, time will tell of course.
[/quote]

Sorry, while I can understand your view point, it still is a terrible strategy. With some planning and competent support you could have done far more damage with far more support and far less opposition. Because not only did you start a new war, you have taken a major political and diplomatic hit that will haunt you longer than this war will last.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='LiquidMercury' date='31 January 2010 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1264962114' post='2147930']
Regarding tactics. One of the most military viable strategies is target selection. By us pre-emping, we allow ourselves to have the targets we want, spread our NS the way we want, and have a more controlled situation. Does it bring more NS against us in the long run, most likely. Is it a lot of fun? Absolutely. Sometimes you just have to have a good ole slug fest, we believe we can take it, time will tell of course.
[/quote]

Another important military strategy is effective diplomacy, you failed at that and it bit you in the $@!.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Killer Monkey land' date='31 January 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1264962779' post='2147952']
By the amount of alliances CnG are sending in after you guys you should feel honored they are that scared of you. Good luck TOP.
[/quote]

It is called normal retaliation. Buy a clue. If I use your logic, NpO respects \m/ and we all know that is not the case.

EDIT: Little p not big P.

Edited January 31, 2010 by AirMe

[LiquidMercury]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 January 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1264962844' post='2147957']
It is called normal retaliation. Buy a clue. If I use your logic, NpO respects \m/ and we all know that is not the case.

EDIT: Little p not big P.
[/quote]

Agreed. I'd of done the same thing to send this much against us.

@Tamerlane: Diplomacy is bogus here.
Example:

Alliance 1: o/ your stupid non-important thread
Alliance 2: OMG you should come to our boards and spam
Alliance 1: Lets share IRC channels and talk a lot of stupid stuff while our gov occasionally talks important things but the membership as a whole don't know each other
Alliance 2: Can we please sign some sort of treaty, we've spammed enough love that we are now best friends.
Alliance 1: Treaty Signed
Alliance 2 (later on): Okay we have conflicting treaties, we're going neutral, or we're hitting your friend but not you, MDAP doesn't mean anything, MDoAP means NAP really.
Alliance 1: We understand your decision, lets still be friends after (possible gripings and maybe a cancellation will come out of it if not enough spamming of "I'm sorry" "we still love you" "other various stupid smiley faces"

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Affluenza' date='31 January 2010 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1264953610' post='2147654']
We will never know...and it will be written in history as such...
[/quote]

Nah, history is written by those who are the most active in the CN wiki


Edit: Wow LM, you just covered in one post how almost all treaties work on planet Bob. kudos

Edited January 31, 2010 by HellAngel

[Bob Janova]

History won't be kind to TOP because it will forget then when TOP entered the war, it was still a full scale global war of coalitions with C&G committed to the side that was already attacking IRON and Purple alliances.

[AirMe]

[quote name='LiquidMercury' date='31 January 2010 - 01:39 PM' timestamp='1264963150' post='2147968']
Agreed. I'd of done the same thing to send this much against us.

@Tamerlane: Diplomacy is bogus here.
Example:

Alliance 1: o/ your stupid non-important thread
Alliance 2: OMG you should come to our boards and spam
Alliance 1: Lets share IRC channels and talk a lot of stupid stuff while our gov occasionally talks important things but the membership as a whole don't know each other
Alliance 2: Can we please sign some sort of treaty, we've spammed enough love that we are now best friends.
Alliance 1: Treaty Signed
Alliance 2 (later on): Okay we have conflicting treaties, we're going neutral, or we're hitting your friend but not you, MDAP doesn't mean anything, MDoAP means NAP really.
Alliance 1: We understand your decision, lets still be friends after (possible gripings and maybe a cancellation will come out of it if not enough spamming of "I'm sorry" "we still love you" "other various stupid smiley faces"
[/quote]

It only works that way if you want it to. Luckily in Ronin, we involve the entire membership in diplomacy. Does TOP still have the policy that the general membership doesn't have access to the embassies?

[jstep]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 January 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1264963408' post='2147976']
It only works that way if you want it to. Luckily in Ronin, we involve the entire membership in diplomacy. Does TOP still have the policy that the general membership doesn't have access to the embassies?
[/quote]

No, we haven't for a year or so

[AirMe]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='31 January 2010 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1264963356' post='2147974']
History won't be kind to TOP because it will forget then when TOP entered the war, it was still a full scale global war of coalitions with C&G committed to the side that was already attacking IRON and Purple alliances.
[/quote]

You can argue this point all you like but that doesn't negate the fact that no alliance in C&G had declared war on any combatant in the war. Case in point, if they had waited until C&G had gone in and then attacked, Ronin wouldn't be in this war. But since they did what they did, we honored our defensive treaty because we viewed it as a separate conflict.

[Pablo Monkey]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 January 2010 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1264962844' post='2147957']
It is called normal retaliation. Buy a clue. If I use your logic, NpO respects \m/ and we all know that is not the case.

EDIT: Little p not big P.
[/quote]

Thanks for the condescending reply. NpO was the only alliance attacking \m/, so I fail to see your point. Maybe if you show me that store where I can "buy" a clue that would be great.

[AirMe]

[quote name='jstep' date='31 January 2010 - 01:44 PM' timestamp='1264963465' post='2147978']
No, we haven't for a year or so
[/quote]

Good, that was a terrible policy IMO.

[Sephiroth]

I had been in contact with TOP since the beginning of the war before they entered and this wasn't a decision they made lightly, TOP had been in contact with NpO for many days considering their entrance and Grub himself admitted OWF he gave the go ahead to hit CnG. I was very happy to TOP decided to help our side, its disappointing some of those fighting alongside us would withdraw their support due to the manner TOP went about declaring in order to assist our side. I was glad to see TOP decide to risk their pixels and join our side. I don't think how they went about entering was a good idea, but I don't think that should of been cause for so many to abandon the war while others are still fighting. Its disappointing when so few seem to have the commitment to go through with a war and stick with those fighting alongside them on the battlefield.

I'm sure people will remember those who decided to stick around for their allies and those that bailed with no regard towards their comrades in war.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='LiquidMercury' date='31 January 2010 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1264963150' post='2147968']
Agreed. I'd of done the same thing to send this much against us.

@Tamerlane: Diplomacy is bogus here.
Example:

Alliance 1: o/ your stupid non-important thread
Alliance 2: OMG you should come to our boards and spam
Alliance 1: Lets share IRC channels and talk a lot of stupid stuff while our gov occasionally talks important things but the membership as a whole don't know each other
Alliance 2: Can we please sign some sort of treaty, we've spammed enough love that we are now best friends.
Alliance 1: Treaty Signed
Alliance 2 (later on): Okay we have conflicting treaties, we're going neutral, or we're hitting your friend but not you, MDAP doesn't mean anything, MDoAP means NAP really.
Alliance 1: We understand your decision, lets still be friends after (possible gripings and maybe a cancellation will come out of it if not enough spamming of "I'm sorry" "we still love you" "other various stupid smiley faces"
[/quote]

I somewhat agree with your stance on MDAP/MDoAP's and all that aforementioned stuff (different issue), however that example really only works - in this specific case- with Gre/MHA who don't have written treaties anymore :v. Treaties seem to be falling, more or less, along their predicted lines.

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 January 2010 - 06:45 PM' timestamp='1264963523' post='2147982']
You can argue this point all you like but that doesn't negate the fact that no alliance in C&G had declared war on any combatant in the war. Case in point, if they had waited until C&G had gone in and then attacked, Ronin wouldn't be in this war. But since they did what they did, we honored our defensive treaty because we viewed it as a separate conflict.
[/quote]
But as I said already, until the rest of the war peaced out, C&G's relevant MDP partners were already engaged or pledged to the other side regardless. TOP didn't really bring anyone important in against them that wouldn't have been there anyway. (Don't take this the wrong way, I have a great respect for you, but Ronin aren't a major factor in TOP's thinking.)

Would I have done it that way? No, for sure, it was asking for the sort of e-lawyering that certain C&G members are trying to pull now (despite the fact that they were pledged to the raiding side beforehand). But if it wasn't for the peacing out, it would not have looked anywhere near as silly as it does afterwards. (At which point, incidentally, C&G could have called the whole thing off – TOP would have been active and able to be called off their attacks. The blame for the war continuing is not only at TOP's door.)

[AirMe]

[quote name='Methrage' date='31 January 2010 - 02:00 PM' timestamp='1264964406' post='2148008']
I had been in contact with TOP since the beginning of the war before they entered and this wasn't a decision they made lightly, TOP had been in contact with NpO for many days considering their entrance and Grub himself admitted OWF he gave the go ahead to hit CnG. I was very happy to TOP decided to help our side, its disappointing some of those fighting alongside us would withdraw their support due to the manner TOP went about declaring in order to assist our side. I was glad to see TOP decide to risk their pixels and join our side. I don't think how they went about entering was a good idea, but I don't think that should of been cause for so many to abandon the war while others are still fighting. Its disappointing when so few seem to have the commitment to go through with a war and stick with those fighting alongside them on the battlefield.

I'm sure people will remember those who decided to stick around for their allies and those that bailed with no regard towards their comrades in war.
[/quote]

Most of the people who are no longer in the war were allies of Polar. Who is no longer fighting. Once Polar is done, their allies started leaving. Standard Operating procedure. TOP was also short sighted to explicitly trust a man that dislikes them more than most. Personally when someone approves a preemption, my "IT'S A TRAP!" Radar goes off.

What? We were all thinking it. I just said it.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='31 January 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1264964758' post='2148018']
But as I said already, until the rest of the war peaced out, C&G's relevant MDP partners were already engaged or pledged to the other side regardless. TOP didn't really bring anyone important in against them that wouldn't have been there anyway. (Don't take this the wrong way, I have a great respect for you, but Ronin aren't a major factor in TOP's thinking.)

Would I have done it that way? No, for sure, it was asking for the sort of e-lawyering that certain C&G members are trying to pull now (despite the fact that they were pledged to the raiding side beforehand). But if it wasn't for the peacing out, it would not have looked anywhere near as silly as it does afterwards. (At which point, incidentally, C&G could have called the whole thing off – TOP would have been active and able to be called off their attacks. The blame for the war continuing is not only at TOP's door.)
[/quote]

I understand that my alliance is insignificant. But how many others were neutraled out that now will enter because of this move? More than a few I expect. I also expect a few alliances that peaced out after Polar left now have the opportunity to enter as well.

[Drai]

[quote name='Janosik' date='30 January 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1264909050' post='2146429']
In all honesty I know you MKers aren't happy. You're entire alliance is being burned in a TOPdown(you're the down) slaughter fest, and we don't even have the decency to make this war about you, we sent velvet envelopes to all your friends as well. Attempting to cover your tears about your precious pixels with false bravado is a little shallow. I'm one of those stathuggers who hasn't been able to get my hands on decent slots for years. Now you understand why declaring on an entire bloc doesn't scare me. I've been building my nation longer than most alliances have been around, including your contingent's.
[/quote]
Might want to take a look at the damage your alliance is taking from us before claiming we aren't happy

Edited January 31, 2010 by Drai

[Epik High]

I declare war on CnG.

Take that.