So what happened to that war? Huh? SAY WHAT?! NUH UH!!!

[JWConner]

One that came too little, too late to be called an actual victory. Considering the amount of wind up and warmongering nonsense tossed around but such notables as JWConner along with wonderfully pregnant statements from Roadie of TPF to name the ones I bothered to remember the actual production fell short. If anything, the declarations of war by the CC were more like declarations of intent to declare war. A massed collection of alliances, some of whom shared mandatory defense treaties which were activated by their partner alliance, The Phoenix Federation, failed to actually defend anything and that's the shame of it. Their ally got pounded, there was no call to settlement and everybody simply wiped their hands and went home like nothing happened. My lord, but I'd hope this is not the future of the 'verse. If it is best all treaties be canceled. Then again, that wouldn't be the worst thing.

In my defense, I was trying to be annoying and mock those that continued to bait those of us who did not come to TPF's defense immediately. As LM has stated numerous times, TPF agreed to the tactics that LM put into action. Not to say all of the alliances involved agreed with it (including VA) but we stuck with the group as a whole and played along. Would I have rather we attacked within 24-48 hours? Of course. Unfortunately it wasn't in my power to do so (mind you I'm not official VA government, just an adviser). So that all said, the outcome was the same. TPF got peace. Did my alliance yearn for war as the majority of Planet Bob did? Very much so, but things didn't work out that way. Speculation or other motives about why things happened they way they did will have to be answered by those who did the planning/organizing.

My part was basically to waste time while we were stuck twiddling our thumbs waiting for the orders from the CC.

[Branimir]

I think CC was a failure due to the complete lack of justice for TPF.

Biggest win is that TPF didn't had to apologize.

We all know that surrender apologies and admittance of "wrong doings" are not honest, but they are a clear sign of your defeat. You openly subjugate yourself to the will of those that won against your will in one of the most significant ways.

Also, please don't tell me you originally didn't sought to get them admit their "wrong doings" and to get an apology. I can buy into the story how you weren't for any kind of reparations in it as that was done not that long ago with them--- but this with beating them up, was most definitely in your aim.

It alluded you. Not that much, but definitely somewhat telling.

Nobody can claim victory here. I think that was the point of the "wizard".

[Vilien]

Biggest win is that TPF didn't had to apologize.

It was a technical draw, but you can't portray this as a win for TPF. They dropped one million nation strength and didn't put a dent in their opponents. That's a tactical loss, easily. Forced apologies are irrelevant to success in the long term.

[Branimir]

It was a technical draw, but you can't portray this as a win for TPF. They dropped one million nation strength and didn't put a dent in their opponents. That's a tactical loss, easily. Forced apologies are irrelevant to success in the long term.

No, no, no.

You got me wrong. I typed later on, that nobody can claim victory.

I just wanted to say with that line how the biggest "gain",..."positive thing",..."win",...for TPF out of this all was that they didn't had to apologize. I wasn't trying to say with that they were victorious.

[Vilien]

No, no, no.

You got me wrong. I typed later on, that nobody can claim victory.

I just wanted to say with that line how the biggest "gain",..."positive thing",..."win",...for TPF out of this all was that they didn't had to apologize. I wasn't trying to say with that they were victorious.

My bad then.

[watchman]

I dream of the day where I cram 20 of my nukes down your nations throat before AlmightyGrub gets to.

Dream come true: you're in range.

Apparently watchman and Italgria find it funny when I've accumulated more casualties than they have together.

Yes, this clearly makes you an expert on all things military. Congrats.

[Augustus Autumn]

Then why hasn't ANY evidence been shown?

Because "evidence" in the 'verse is pretty pointless. If you're not convinced of this the wF-UED conflict, the M*A*S*H cancellation and numerous other incidents back this up. People believe what they want to. Also, if you're attempting to imply that I'm on some sort of effort to get people to agree with me and you're the noble person here to stop it have a ball - you're sitting here in my discussion arena trying to shout me down, not the other way around.

How was the coalition a failure? Wars were declared. Peace was offered. What would you define a win to be?

Not twiddling thumbs, sitting around for a week, then saying you did something. Winning would actually involve expending effort on a mass scale instead of a bunch of people huddled in back channels slapping each other on the back for being so sneak and brilliant. Good lord, if this is the standard of victory I'm on a winning streak here.

In my defense, I was trying to be annoying and mock those that continued to bait those of us who did not come to TPF's defense immediately. As LM has stated numerous times, TPF agreed to the tactics that LM put into action. Not to say all of the alliances involved agreed with it (including VA) but we stuck with the group as a whole and played along. Would I have rather we attacked within 24-48 hours? Of course. Unfortunately it wasn't in my power to do so (mind you I'm not official VA government, just an adviser). So that all said, the outcome was the same. TPF got peace. Did my alliance yearn for war as the majority of Planet Bob did? Very much so, but things didn't work out that way. Speculation or other motives about why things happened they way they did will have to be answered by those who did the planning/organizing.

My part was basically to waste time while we were stuck twiddling our thumbs waiting for the orders from the CC.

And, as stated, wasting time isn't the same thing as winning.

Biggest win is that TPF didn't had to apologize.

We all know that surrender apologies and admittance of "wrong doings" are not honest, but they are a clear sign of your defeat. You openly subjugate yourself to the will of those that won against your will in one of the most significant ways.

TPF hasn't apologized for anything in a very long time. Expecting them to do so now, especially after attempting to paint what they did as some sort of honorable defense, would just be foolish.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Branimir]

TPF hasn't apologized for anything in a very long time. Expecting them to do so now, especially after attempting to paint what they did as some sort of honorable defense, would just be foolish.

TPF is a proud alliance, for sure. It would be hard to get them to apologize, that doesn't mean that for certain that wasn't one of the objectives of the attackers. Wasn't such peace offer already mentioned as offered to them?

In the last war, TPF (as far as I know) was not put into a position to apologize for anything. Actually, none of the "hegemony" side was, except for NPO. This war, in this form where TPF isn't defending an ally but is directly being attacked for "their wrong doings" is a situation in which I don't believe they ever were.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Branimir

[Augustus Autumn]

TPF is a proud alliance, for sure. It would be hard to get them to apologize, that doesn't mean that for certain that wasn't one of the objectives of the attackers. Wasn't such peace offer already mentioned as offered to them?

It was, as I understand it. It doesn't make the effort pointless.

In the last war, TPF (as far as I know) was not put into a position to apologize for anything. Actually, none of the "hegemony" side was, except for NPO. This war, in this form where TPF isn't defending an ally but is directly being attacked for "their wrong doings" is a situation in which I don't believe they ever were.

I was referring to a lot more than the Karma War.

[Kzoppistan]

I think CC was a failure due to the complete lack of justice for TPF. The amount of rhetoric spewed over the injustice of attacking TPF would require that TPF receive an apology and reparations for the heinous attacks against them. Instead, CC got white peace for everyone. Athens and RoK got a week of beating on TPF with absolutely no repercussions. That is a failure.

This.

That was what aggravated me the most, as well. My stance on the situation has not changed even after it's all come out and which I only had an inkling of in the beginning. I think that both Athens and RoK has some very serious concerns that needed to be addressed. I don't think war was the right first answer. I think TPF was done an injustice in that regard and when the CC finally got enough steam up to deliver a punishing counter attack or at least force a redress for such a sneak attack, the whole thing had the plug pulled.

I never wanted to see Athens and Co destroyed, and I also wanted to see that their concerns were satisfied (without war damage to my ally), but most importantly, I wanted a precedent set that states quite clearly that war without diplomacy first will not be tolerated and will be more painful than it's worth. A punishing counterattack could have done just that. To not do so or not press for a concession in this situation was weak.

I still think we need public statements saying why white peace was appropriate for this situation. So far none have been made and that does not sit well with me.

[JWConner]

Not twiddling thumbs, sitting around for a week, then saying you did something. Winning would actually involve expending effort on a mass scale instead of a bunch of people huddled in back channels slapping each other on the back for being so sneak and brilliant. Good lord, if this is the standard of victory I'm on a winning streak here.

And, as stated, wasting time isn't the same thing as winning.

TPF acquiring white peace without reparations is winning, whether you agree with how it was accomplished or not. The fact is, they were being drawn and quartered over something that a good portion (allied or not to TPF) disagreed with and found to be a BS CB. For that alone, it was a victory. Now, considering none of us got to fight, we'll be rebuilding TPF with as much aid as we can provide. (note: I realize nothing has been sent yet as I'm waiting to get a list of needy nations and such).

So to say that white peace wasn't a victory is being a bit ostentatious, no?

[Branimir]

It was, as I understand it. It doesn't make the effort pointless

That is your opinion. I am sure attacking alliances are not pleased and I am quite, quite, sure they would persist in this further if certain things didnt happen the way they did which, although not a death threat to them, were things they at this point just wanted to avoid as they were in the way of already established rout of action for the next period of time.

I was referring to a lot more than the Karma War.

I was pointing out to you that TPF didn't apologize for anything really, as they never were put in such position before this point. As such, no apologies from them.

[Goose]

TPF acquiring white peace without reparations is winning, whether you agree with how it was accomplished or not. The fact is, they were being drawn and quartered over something that a good portion (allied or not to TPF) disagreed with and found to be a BS CB. For that alone, it was a victory. Now, considering none of us got to fight, we'll be rebuilding TPF with as much aid as we can provide. (note: I realize nothing has been sent yet as I'm waiting to get a list of needy nations and such).

So to say that white peace wasn't a victory is being a bit ostentatious, no?

It is the smallest of victories. Instead of 2 weeks of war, and an apology/admission from TPF you cut it to 1 week and no admission. With the stated/intoned purpose of CC being to punish Athens, RoK, GOD, and \m/ for their 'sneak' attack on TPF over what was viewed as an illegitimate reason to attack TPF, CC was a complete and utter failure. Those attacking TPF walked away with their pound of flesh and nothing lost. They made no concessions over the justification for war. They made no concessions regarding the lack of diplomacy. They made no concessions at all, except to stop their war against TPF a week early.

[Branimir]

A sign of a good draw in war is when both sides have some good basis to spin into their victory.

The question which answer we will have to wait, is why the side that could achieve actual victory didn't push for it.

Answer to that question we will get with time.

[JWConner]

It is the smallest of victories. Instead of 2 weeks of war, and an apology/admission from TPF you cut it to 1 week and no admission. With the stated/intoned purpose of CC being to punish Athens, RoK, GOD, and \m/ for their 'sneak' attack on TPF over what was viewed as an illegitimate reason to attack TPF, CC was a complete and utter failure. Those attacking TPF walked away with their pound of flesh and nothing lost. They made no concessions over the justification for war. They made no concessions regarding the lack of diplomacy. They made no concessions at all, except to stop their war against TPF a week early.

I'm not disagreeing with you on those points. I would much rather have gone to war and fought for our friends. That said, it didn't work out that way. We move on.

[AirMe]

Great OP actually.

CC had very little diplomatic presence in this conflict it was all between TPF and the fighting SG alliances so who ever claimed this was a great diplomatic effort from CC should get their head examined.

The "blitz" also had nothing to do with the peace. As repeated logs have shown, white peace was on the table before that laughable event happened.

No one was scared. A full compliment of counters, on nations that weren't in peace mode on the CC side, were scheduled and planned to occur when peace was achieved.

I, to this day, believe the CB was valid and I am inclined to believe they have similar ops going on in other places.

I am willing to admit that I was an advocate of the white peace scenario because it proved a few things the most important of which was to remind people that the conflict was about TPF and not about anyone else as I had repeatedly heard from multiple people over the course of 5 days.

[Augustus Autumn]

I still think we need public statements saying why white peace was appropriate for this situation. So far none have been made and that does not sit well with me.

An explanation would certainly be appropriate and welcomed.

TPF acquiring white peace without reparations is winning, whether you agree with how it was accomplished or not. The fact is, they were being drawn and quartered over something that a good portion (allied or not to TPF) disagreed with and found to be a BS CB. For that alone, it was a victory. Now, considering none of us got to fight, we'll be rebuilding TPF with as much aid as we can provide. (note: I realize nothing has been sent yet as I'm waiting to get a list of needy nations and such).

So to say that white peace wasn't a victory is being a bit ostentatious, no?

So wait. Because TPF didn't have to pay reparations, this is a victory, and because a whole load of alliances sitting in peace mode didn't get thumped that's a victory too? Reads more like a bunch of you sat around, spewed words and then got the peace which SG had intended to give anyway. That's akin to declaring victory over the calendar because it turned Monday.

I was pointing out to you that TPF didn't apologize for anything really, as they never were put in such position before this point. As such, no apologies from them.

I think we're missing what the other person is saying here. I'm asserting that the constantly belligerent attitude taken by members of TPF government has eschewed apologies being made in the past when they were warranted and, as such, seeking such an apology in this instance was doomed to failure.

A sign of a good draw in war is when both sides have some good basis to spin into their victory.

Neither side has that basis and therein lies my issue. You'll note the placement of all combatants on the losing side of this one because all of them came out having lost more than they gained as I see it, being infra, tech, land or credibility.

Great OP actually.

Thank you, AirMe.

I, to this day, believe the CB was valid and I am inclined to believe they have similar ops going on in other places.

I'm going to give you a wink on this one.

I am willing to admit that I was an advocate of the white peace scenario because it proved a few things the most important of which was to remind people that the conflict was about TPF and not about anyone else as I had repeatedly heard from multiple people over the course of 5 days.

Never underestimate the desire of others to use a situation to their own advantage. I remain skeptical that the issue at hand was ever entirely over TPF and their operation - I make this assessment based on knowing some of the personalities on both sides and their scheming little ways combined with serious self-esteem issues. It's good to see an honest advocate still alive out there.

[HellAngel]

I like your writing style, but you base your assumption too much on things you assume, not things you know. Ill give you a 6/10 for that.

[Augustus Autumn]

I like your writing style, but you base your assumption too much on things you assume, not things you know. Ill give you a 6/10 for that.

What assumptions in the OP were those?

[Branimir]

I am willing to admit that I was an advocate of the white peace scenario because it proved a few things the most important of which was to remind people that the conflict was about TPF and not about anyone else as I had repeatedly heard from multiple people over the course of 5 days.

You had all your potential threats lined up against you in a position where you had the upper hand and could deal with a source of potential trouble for you for a long time and have great fun with it, but your choice was to prove to two alliances how this wasn't a ploy to get them.

Does it really matter that it is a ploy or not at that point?

I understand that it is always a better strategy to try to befriend then go into a cycle of war and peace with somebody, but really at what point you say $%&@ it this will happen anyway and just go for it if you are ahead?

Dunno AirMe, seems over confident to me.

Neither side has that basis and therein lies my issue. You'll note the placement of all combatants on the losing side of this one because all of them came out having lost more than they gained as I see it, being infra, tech, land or credibility.

Glass half empty or half full. Either way, we both agree on the matter that there were no winners here.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Branimir

[astronaut jones]

I like your writing style, but you base your assumption too much on things you assume, not things you know. Ill give you a 6/10 for that.

I think he knows a hell of a lot more than he's letting on, and perhaps even a hell of a lot more than you do about what lead to this situation. Give him atleast a 9.

[HellAngel]

No, no he doesnt. At least not about my side of the war. And im also not gonna discuss it, find someone else.

[Augustus Autumn]

No, no he doesnt. At least not about my side of the war. And im also not gonna discuss it, find someone else.

Glad to know you're here to tell me what I do and do not know. Also, you avoided my question.

[HellAngel]

I did not tell you what to do, no need to get defensive. I was talking to astronaut jones. And i cant answer your question, because i do not know if some people would want me to release such information.

[Augustus Autumn]

I did not tell you what to do, no need to get defensive. I was talking to astronaut jones. And i cant answer your question, because i do not know if some people would want me to release such information.

Fair enough. The only implied "assumption" that I made in the OP (that could be construed as one, anyway) was concerning TOP's involvement and, as I said to Liquid Mercury, I was being sarcastic and having some fun. If there's something else out there I'm missing feel free to contact me privately.