The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Vijaya]

Is that not how the world works? At least in this society we attempt to guise our carnal nature with justice and morality. The war seems just, the war seems moral - good enough for the average Joe, as long as he gets his dose of war.

Key word: "seems."

IMO, if people are going to to talk the "morality" talk, they need to walk the walk as well. Maybe I ask too much? *sigh*

Thank you, you are both a scholar and a gentleman.

-----

If this act by TPF is so acceptable, and spying is so acceptable, then the rest of Bob will act accordingly and strike against Athens/RoK/GOD/\m/ for their actions. Eventually, we will achieve a victor, and either it will be laid into history that spying is acceptable in a case of war or that spying is never acceptable.

OOC: Underlined that one for you.

As far as I ever heard, spying outside wartime was bad, m'kay, which implies that in wartime, it's considered A-OK. Would anyone really disagree with this?

As for the OP, well done Mhawk on introducing actual screenshots and time-stamped logs into the debate. My primary question from the get-go in all this has been "Who knew what when?" Has someone been sitting on this scandal (if indeed there is a scandal) for months waiting to give everyone a war against a controversial alliance for Christmas? If not that, what is the reason for the curious timing?

Edited December 28, 2009 by Valdemar

[Augustus Autumn]

My primary question from the get-go in all this has been "Who knew what when?" Has some been sitting on this scandal, if indeed there is a scandal for months? If so, what is the reason for the timing?

The only people who controlled the timing were those in ZH. Athens lacks the ability to restrain itself.

[Jack Diorno]

This is obviously the best way to handle this. force them into a similar position to do this again.

Also, it is now illegal to attempt and change an alliance from within? It is war worthy? Crazy. Isn't the change of an alliance supposed to be able to occur? Seems to me this is silly. Two of my favorite alliances trying to fill out their big boy pants!

Needless to say, I welcome this opportunity for a war!

Yeah actually I'm pretty sure when the 'changes' were to splinter and break the alliance from the inside its probably not going to go down well. This has all been admitted as true as well before you play that card.

[USMC123]

A good treaty partner doesn't leave their friend out in the cold for two days while they fart around waiting for an invitation to declare war.

Well, if you check the OP there is an invitation already

[ChairmanHal]

You're points are valid, please understand I am decently neutral in this situation. However, you have enlightened a new perspective, as I am never narrow minded and praise those with logical thought.

One could argue that in the document itself, those alliances signed on behalf of Karma as all the signatories signed using Karma's name, which, Athens was a part of. The only problem here is whether TPF continued their ambitions AFTER peace was declared, which as far as I am concerned, no evidence has been given.

It really comes down to interpretation of how one perceives said document. One side stresses they signed on behalf of Karma whilst the other side claims those were the specific signatures of specific wars.

Both perspectives are merely opinions which both have supportive arguments, the problem is in situations like these, two opinions and no clear right from wrong will end in a cycle of "NO U."

The document as worded states very clearly that it is being signed on behalf of Karma AND the undersigned alliances. If the wording were different and it made it clear that it only included in the alliances that signed the treaty, then you'd have a case that Athens, Rok, et al. were not covered under the treaty. Mind you, there are other strong arguments that go against this war happening and a diplomatic solution (or simple OWRP humiliation) would have been the logical course. That logical course was never even considered.

Side Note: It would seem that \m/ through all its statements is about the only honest alliance in this whole mess at the moment. They want to fight, they had a treaty with someone wanting to fight. They got what they ordered. No digging for a CB, no real justification required beyond the treaty. Strap them on, lock and load.

[King Srqt]

You and I disagree on one point. You contend that TPF was at war with Athens during Karma. And I say that they never were. And that is the crux of the argument. 2 Different view points, both which are right in their own way.

The issue as to whether a state of war can exist without a formal declaration from either side is a debate that has merit on both sides of the coin and for that simple fact I believe that Athens at the very least should have sought out a diplomatic solution to this issue before firing ze missiles.

So was the aggressive action taken by TPF against Athens and Ragnarok, a long term sabotage/espionage plan set in motion with two alliances they were not currently at war with justified or not?

Yes. Both Athens and RoK took part in acts of war against TPF when they attacked the NPO, TPF had every right to respond in kind. The only debatable circumstance, as I just addressed above, is whether a state of war can exist without a formal declaration.

[Un4Gvn1]

Has someone been sitting on this scandal (if indeed there is a scandal) for months waiting to give everyone a war against a controversial alliance for Christmas? If not that, what is the reason for the curious timing?

Revenge. Hell hath no fury, etc.

[Dochartaigh]

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I had such high hopes too.

not really. i am just sick and tired of running the same old arguments about a peace treaty. ya'll believe that it is okay to spy during a war. we do not. ya'll believe that Athens somehow should forgive and forget despite not knowing of these actions simply because TPF allegedly surrendered to all of Karma. something i know all of Karma did not agree to.

so frankly, we are gonna believe what we believe and ya'll gonna believe what ya'll believe. this has nothing to do with old boss new boss crap and to even state it does is to simply ignore what is going on.

we have 60 something pages of the same arguments being repeated ad nauseum and you are gonna compare me with the Heg. please, keep stretching it KingSrqt and completely ignore the fact that ya'll don't give a flying $%&@ what we say about Athens having nothing to do with TPF's surrender nor the fact that we think spying is not okay regardless of when it is done. and ignore the fact that we obviously don't give a flying $%&@ that ya'll disagree with us.

cuz yes, that is the same as being the Heg. or it is simply cuz this argument has gone on long enough and it is tired, beaten well beyond a dead horse (shoot by now we have made glue), and going nowhere.

but honestly, i should have expected it as ya'll seem only capable of comparing anything done with what Heg and co seems to think Karma wanted to accomplish, mainly a list that was never stated by anyone but themselves. though i did expect better from you, guess i was wrong. i had such high hopes too.

[Gobb]

Ive asked and got no reply.

Probably the same reason why criminals get lighter or no sentences if they give investigators valuable information on other criminals

Edited December 28, 2009 by Lord Gobb

[Chrono]

ya'll believe that it is okay to spy during a war. we do not.

So let me get this straight...spying out of war is NOT CB, but spying during war is CB months later?

[King Srqt]

not really. i am just sick and tired of running the same old arguments about a peace treaty. ya'll believe that it is okay to spy during a war. we do not. ya'll believe that Athens somehow should forgive and forget despite not knowing of these actions simply because TPF allegedly surrendered to all of Karma. something i know all of Karma did not agree to.

so frankly, we are gonna believe what we believe and ya'll gonna believe what ya'll believe. this has nothing to do with old boss new boss crap and to even state it does is to simply ignore what is going on.

we have 60 something pages of the same arguments being repeated ad nauseum and you are gonna compare me with the Heg. please, keep stretching it KingSrqt and completely ignore the fact that ya'll don't give a flying $%&@ what we say about Athens having nothing to do with TPF's surrender nor the fact that we think spying is not okay regardless of when it is done. and ignore the fact that we obviously don't give a flying $%&@ that ya'll disagree with us.

cuz yes, that is the same as being the Heg. or it is simply cuz this argument has gone on long enough and it is tired, beaten well beyond a dead horse (shoot by now we have made glue), and going nowhere.

but honestly, i should have expected it as ya'll seem only capable of comparing anything done with what Heg and co seems to think Karma wanted to accomplish, mainly a list that was never stated by anyone but themselves. though i did expect better from you, guess i was wrong. i had such high hopes too.

Yes you only care about what you and your allies think and do not care that they are going in for a shoddy reason. This war is happening because Athens can and no other reason. I defended Karma from the "just the same as them" argument for a long time but I can only see so much before I realize that you people have no more a concept of fairness than anyone who came before you, you have your power and you will crush anyone who looks at you funny even if it is for a 6 month old offense that did 0 damage to anyone and happened during a global conflict.

You keep telling yourself whatever you need to to sleep better at night, but this is the same type of BS CB with the same type of argument to defend it as I have seen for the last 3+ years in this place. Nothing has changed but the faces.

[Dochartaigh]

So let me get this straight...spying out of war is NOT CB, but spying during war is CB months later?

where did i even say that? seriously, ya'll be stretching to find something now.

Yes you only care about what you and your allies think and do not care that they are going in for a shoddy reason. This war is happening because Athens can and no other reason. I defended Karma from the "just the same as them" argument for a long time but I can only see so much before I realize that you people have no more a concept of fairness than anyone who came before you, you have your power and you will crush anyone who looks at you funny even if it is for a 6 month old offense that did 0 damage to anyone and happened during a global conflict.

You keep telling yourself whatever you need to to sleep better at night, but this is the same type of BS CB with the same type of argument to defend it as I have seen for the last 3+ years in this place. Nothing has changed but the faces.

for one KingSrqt, i think it is a legit CB that is not shoddy, so that is one point we will always disagree on.

i will sleep just fine because to me this is as far from a BS CB as i have seen in a long time. and you are right, nothing has changed which is why i posted what i did. people are gonna believe what they want regardless of anything else. you and yours are stuck on some peace treaty that Athens was never involved in, where TPF never divulged this action, and think that Athens should just let this slide.

i wonder if you would be so forgiving if it was TJO this happened to. seriously contemplating gathering a bunch of people together to form micro alliances for the sole purpose of spying during war against alliances i am not at war with but are on the opposite side of the fence on. then a week or so later having a "falling out" and thus no spying or attempted destruction actually taking place, and having the micro-alliances ending it and then purposely come forward a few months down the road. not to mention, ensure that the peace terms are worded in a way to include everyone on the opposite side of the fence regardless of if they have an actual say in the terms.

i bet the alliances affected by it would not be so forgiving. even if it is TPF, VA, Argent, TJO, and anyone else on your side.

[dejarue]

Why shouldn't we show our logs to our allies and roll Athens, RoK, GOD and /m\?? Isn't that really what you support? Action without diplomacy??

You should absolutely do this. Action is already underway.

[malazar]

Now he wanted to seperate from his former alliance TPF and made it very clear he wanted to be part of another sphere. Athens was choosen as the protector of ZH. I was the 3rd member to join Zero Hour and I stayed and served as the Minister of the Internal Affairs for a month until I left Zero Hour. At no point durring the expance of my time in Zero Hour was there talk even jokingly of an attack on Athens.

As member #6 of ZH, and an ex-tpf to boot, I am glad I was not the only one who didn't find out about this plot until yesterday when it was made public. Still, the logs show what the logs show so I don't doubt the validity of the plot existing.

[Bob Janova]

So let me get this straight...spying out of war is NOT CB, but spying during war is CB months later?

Spying in peacetime has always been a valid CB and remains so today. If you're still harping on about 'OV spied', well, they didn't, get over it.

Spying is an act of war and if done within a war, which you later get peace terms to end, in my opinion that spying should not then be used to start a new war, particularly when it failed as a programme months earlier.

[Chief Savage Man]

Why should we?? So we can hammer out a diplomatic solution to this mess?? I mean what is wrong with Athens method of diplomacy?? Why shouldn't we show our logs to our allies and roll Athens, RoK, GOD and /m\?? Isn't that really what you support? Action without diplomacy??

Yes. Please get your allies to declare on us. For the love of God, PLEASE.

[Kilkenny]

Something has been bothering me. People in this thread don't have the ability to tell time. August - December = 4 months. Well about 4 and 1/2 if you want to get technical.

But it feels like 6 months, you know that planet bob time factor. kinda like the wind chill factor.

[Bob]

So BobJanova, what is an acceptable amount of time to wait?

You say that the Sponge thing, which had happened a month before and you full well knew about it for that month and waited for the moment when you could strike them from all appearances, is legit.

Why is something that occurred 4 months ago but they just found out a few days ago not?

[Dochartaigh]

So BobJanova, what is an acceptable amount of time to wait?

You say that the Sponge thing, which had happened a month before and you full well knew about it for that month and waited for the moment when you could strike them from all appearances, is legit.

Why is something that occurred 4 months ago but they just found out a few days ago not?

read the Athens DoW for his reasoning. he claims it is not the same at all because Polaris, despite having a new Emperor and gov, were still a clear and present danger..... they knew this because of all the non-diplomacy they used to ensure this.

[wickedj]

Yes. Please get your allies to declare on us. For the love of God, PLEASE.

no, declare on us first! i havent been in nuclear anarchy in MONTHS..i forgot how warm and cozy it is

[King Srqt]

i wonder if you would be so forgiving if it was TJO this happened to. seriously contemplating gathering a bunch of people together to form micro alliances for the sole purpose of spying during war against alliances i am not at war with but are on the opposite side of the fence on. then a week or so later having a "falling out" and thus no spying or attempted destruction actually taking place, and having the micro-alliances ending it and then purposely come forward a few months down the road. not to mention, ensure that the peace terms are worded in a way to include everyone on the opposite side of the fence regardless of if they have an actual say in the terms.

If someone had a plan to spy on my alliance during a global war that never got followed through on and I found out about it months later I would laugh it off. I don't really care about what might have happened, hell if even they were successful as long as the operation did not continue once the war had ended I would not care.

There was no damage done, there was no actual action against Athens taken, this CB is that TPF "conspired" to spy against Athens during a global conflict but never actually spied.

Seems like a crock to me.

[Jack Diorno]

If someone had a plan to spy on my alliance during a global war that never got followed through on and I found out about it months later I would laugh it off. I don't really care about what might have happened, hell if even they were successful as long as the operation did not continue once the war had ended I would not care.

There was no damage done, there was no actual action against Athens taken, this CB is that TPF "conspired" to spy against Athens during a global conflict but never actually spied.

Seems like a crock to me.

Mhawk admitted to it.

[Bob Janova]

So BobJanova, what is an acceptable amount of time to wait?

Well, it's a grey area (of course). I would say something that's been a dead issue for more than a month or so is beyond use, except in the case of a cynical 'sitting on a CB'.

You say that the Sponge thing, which had happened a month before and you full well knew about it for that month and waited for the moment when you could strike them from all appearances, is legit.

Actually I said that that was not the CB, but supporting background information showing that NpO was aggressive in intent towards Citadel, and (here's the difference) there was no sign that that had changed. The CB wasn't 'Sponge said some nasty things a month ago'. In this case it appears to be the case that the hostility (which would have been well worth an extension of the war or difficulty getting terms had it been exposed at the time) was over several months before this war is being declared.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is in the same category as several of the Hegemony wars. The CB is entirely valid, it's just that (in my opinion) it shouldn't be used so long after the fact (when the issue is over).

[AirMe]

If someone had a plan to spy on my alliance during a global war that never got followed through on and I found out about it months later I would laugh it off. I don't really care about what might have happened, hell if even they were successful as long as the operation did not continue once the war had ended I would not care.

There was no damage done, there was no actual action against Athens taken, this CB is that TPF "conspired" to spy against Athens during a global conflict but never actually spied.

Seems like a crock to me.

I went on a bender and drank way more than I should have and snorted coke on St. Patty's day. I then drove through your yard and made your wife and kids dive for safety. In the end, since no damage was done, I shouldn't be charged with a crime.

[King Srqt]

Mhawk admitted to it.

How does that contradict anything that I just said?

(hint: it doesn't)