Lenex Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 (edited) I think people should read this post. That is asking too much sorry. Edited December 24, 2009 by Lenex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroknia Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 I'm fully sad to see years of ODN's work collapse like it is now days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joracy Posted December 24, 2009 Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Okay- a little clarity please. You could be saying two things here. Yes- talks occurred with LEO signatories (but not FOK). Seeing as those other signatories were our allies (at the time)- R&R and INT it's not exactly damning. We talked to our allies about a possible change in the ODN's FA policy. Wow. No- The ODN never tried to make a bloc without FOK in it. The ODN had a discussion, with it's orange allies, about the possibility of it joining LEO. Two of those allies were in LEO, one was not. It was decided that joining LEO outright, in it's current state (with the wording of the treaty), was unfeasible. I could swear we've already said this on several occasions. Exactly. They were not government discussions. Furthermore- it was not plotting against the interests of anyone. If you actually read the logs properly, which it appears you have not, you would see that the discussion was about the concessions R&R and FOK would have to make for the ODN to still want the bloc. Because these concessions were obviously too great- the ODN stopped pursuing the orange bloc idea. So how exactly are we plotting against FOK if we decide to ditch our idea and leave the status quo alone? And my deputy about sums it up. If you read through the logs, and read through that mess of a thread of Arsenal explaining what happened, and being insulted(although I am unsure if you would be able to see that), you will see we never denied those talks happened, and apologized repeatedly for them. We talked to our allies about joining LEO(something which they themselves had talked to us about on occasions) and found it to be an unsatisfactory plan. We also discussed a separate bloc, but we found issue with FOK's treaty web, and our general relationship which FOK, which although had been improving, did not seem at a level that made such a plan possible. The logs between me and Arsenal a number of months later start out talking about how FOK had reorganized their Foreign affairs somewhat and culled some treaties, and if that made such a plan more sensible, what would have to happen for such a plan to be possible, and other options of a similiar style, albeit in a somewhat insulting and blunt way. As you can see, we realized it would be very difficult and next to impossible for such things to happen, and as such we dropped it, and it never got out of the !@#$%^&* query stage. There was no master plan to exclude or backstab FOK. Such a plan would be unreasonable, nearly impossible, and incredibly unethical, which is exactly why it was never done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted December 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 Okay- a little clarity please. You could be saying two things here. Yes- talks occurred with LEO signatories (but not FOK). Seeing as those other signatories were our allies (at the time)- R&R and INT it's not exactly damning. We talked to our allies about a possible change in the ODN's FA policy. Wow. No- The ODN never tried to make a bloc without FOK in it. The ODN had a discussion, with it's orange allies, about the possibility of it joining LEO. Two of those allies were in LEO, one was not. It was decided that joining LEO outright, in it's current state (with the wording of the treaty), was unfeasible. I could swear we've already said this on several occasions. There are several errors or parts of the whole truth in this post. I bolded them for ya. The one thing I will say to you, is to stop being so ego-centric. If you do not see what you(r government) has done wrong, then you're ignorant. Furthermore- it was not plotting against the interests of anyone. If you actually read the logs properly, which it appears you have not, you would see that the discussion was about the concessions R&R and FOK would have to make for the ODN to still want the bloc. Haha, my god are you serious? What give syou the right, as an outsider, to make any demands with regards to the blocs charter? That is, if we were to be willing to accept you as a signatory at all. Because these concessions were obviously too great- the ODN stopped pursuing the orange bloc idea. So how exactly are we plotting against FOK if we decide to ditch our idea and leave the status quo alone? Not my argument, so no comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted December 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2009 (edited) And my deputy about sums it up. If you read through the logs, and read through that mess of a thread of Arsenal explaining what happened, and being insulted(although I am unsure if you would be able to see that), you will see we never denied those talks happened, and apologized repeatedly for them. It's a simple matter of cause and effect. I'm sure you will understand this. I've heard so many apologies before, it almost made me feel bad. Almost. However they lose their worth if you break them. We talked to our allies about joining LEO(something which they themselves had talked to us about on occasions) and found it to be an unsatisfactory plan. We also discussed a separate bloc, but we found issue with FOK's treaty web, and our general relationship which FOK, which although had been improving, did not seem at a level that made such a plan possible. The issue on hand was that you proposed an alternative to them, while mentioning that it ultimately would lead to disbandment of LEO. [...] Such a plan would be unreasonable, nearly impossible, and incredibly unethical, which is exactly why it was never done. Fixed it for ya. Edited December 24, 2009 by Tromp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonely Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 The one thing I will say to you, is to stop being so ego-centric. In a discussion about ODN's foreign affairs, you'd expect them to focus on their own alliance. If you do not see what you(r government) has done wrong, then you're ignorant. Correction: if they don't see the so-called flaws in the actions of their leadership, then they don't agree with you. There's a massive difference between that and ignorance. What give syou the right, as an outsider, to make any demands with regards to the blocs charter? That is, if we were to be willing to accept you as a signatory at all. It was ODN's idea to form the bloc. I don't see why they should have no role in deciding its charter. Fixed it for ya. I don't think anyone's interested in your opinions, we're interested in the justification for them. Please stop clogging up these forums with your vitriol, there's enough of it on here already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4SnwL Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Please stop clogging up these forums with your vitriol, there's enough of it on here already. oooh, the irony anyway, great move FOK o/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Good move FOK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoomzoomzoom Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 (edited) With all this scandal I bet TGE is feeling just at home. Edited December 25, 2009 by Zoomzoomzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Frontier Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 If I may ask, what did the ODN do? Terrible, terrible things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homura Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Ah, the ODN, finding new ways to make others annoyed with them once again. Just another poor decision in a long history. While losing an intelligence treaty is not impending doom, I shan't pass up the opportunity to express my dislike, and hope this turns into impending doom. B) I'll hail FOK for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Style #386 Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 Hey kids! While I'm sorry that relations sunk to the point of a cancellation, I feel the need to offer a clarification. There was never a plan to make a bloc include the LEO signatories minus FOK. If you are basing your conclusions off of the statement of a single member of our legislative branch, then frankly, there is something wrong with you. I love Proximus dearly, but sometimes he says silly things, and this is one such occasion. Now, I'm not going to stop ya'll from spouting that line, but I felt obligated to highlight the idiocy inherent in doing so. So please, carry on. Best of luck to you, FOK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Boris Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 With all this scandal I bet TGE is feeling just at home. I think I just died laughing. Kudos, good Sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 , I shan't pass up the opportunity to express my dislike, and hope this turns into impending doom. B) Oh what a surprise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikMark Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 (edited) It was ODN's idea to form the bloc. I don't see why they should have no role in deciding its charter. If you have no clue what someone is talking about, just don't respond. Obviously, Tromp was talking about the charter-demands regarding LEO (League of Extraordinary Oranges). I really don't get what all the ODN-ers are complaining about. Either your own government hasn't informed you at all (as in show you logs), or you have weird perceptions of friendships, which form the basis of treaties (including PIATs). About the 'every alliance does this'-argument. Don't even go there. If you think that talking about other alliances (treaty partners) this way, is the right way.. then obviously FOK and ODN don't fit. If you decide to do something, be prepared to carry the consequences. ODN elects their leaders, so I assume their top government members can speak for the alliance. This cancellation isn't based on 1 incident, it's based on multiple very disrespectful actions towards FOK. And yes, that's why PIATs get cancelled. Also, seeing the unwillingness to accept consequences of their own behaviour, it's only for the best that this thing got cancelled. FOK and ODN, not a good fit. Edited December 25, 2009 by ikMark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster83 Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 I am sure FOK done what was necessary. Hopefully the situation is cleared up and everyone can move on. I don't think people should question their decision, if FOK feel it is right, then it is. I do not know the full story so it would be stupid to voice my opinion, but all I can say is good luck to both sides. I hope orange stabilises itself soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Descendent Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 There was never a plan to make a bloc include the LEO signatories minus FOK. If you are basing your conclusions off of the statement of a single member of our legislative branch, then frankly, there is something wrong with you. I love Proximus dearly, but sometimes he says silly things, and this is one such occasion. Logs tend to disagree with you there... However; in a way you may be right; there wasn't a concrete plan to do so because our LEO allies wouldt even begin to discuss a plan like that. But it sure was mentioned by some ODN-ers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murf666 Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 congrats FOK!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikz Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 This is what you get when you try to backstab us. Goodbye ODN, my opinion about you guys has dropped to an all time low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikz Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 (edited) There was never a plan to make a bloc include the LEO signatories minus FOK. If you are basing your conclusions off of the statement of a single member of our legislative branch, then frankly, there is something wrong with you. I love Proximus dearly, but sometimes he says silly things, and this is one such occasion. I have read some logs that prove the opposite. You (the ODN) were suggesting to our LEO friends to dissolve LEO and form a bloc with you guys, so don't deny it, you make yourself look stupid. How do you keep messing up your FA? I actually feel sorry for you guys. Edited December 25, 2009 by erikz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indra Saputra Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 wowww, Best of Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikz Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 It was ODN's idea to form the bloc. I don't see why they should have no role in deciding its charter. Tromp was talking about LEO, not about the backstabbing ODN bloc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenex Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 (edited) Oh..... It is amazing how these insignificant logs can create a number of perceptions just by twisting a few words. Oh great language of ours, how I love thee for allowing people to create completely silly twisted understandings out of nothing. Clearly hypothetical discussions mean a power from above let loose his fury with lightning onto a palette of stone to warn the world of ODN's great misdoings. Thank you to the Fokkers that are keeping it civil and avoiding this immature name calling, that which sadly can not be said for everyone here. Edited December 25, 2009 by Lenex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvdcchn Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 ah Lenox your smarter than that, Hypotheticals with proposed war or even a just for fun and what if sure, but not about controlling your "Friends" and besides the logs, we know GGA, R&R, and FOK are not petty or imature, its your actions that are talking more loudly. your defence of "oh this is normal" isnt really helping either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jtkode Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 You don't wish peace with them? Niceeeee its freakin christmas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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