Declaraction of War

[Moridin]

You don't see the attacking of your friends as a provocation into action for you? It seems you do though, as you're now at war with Khyber's alliance. Confusing. It wasn't just a 1v1 tech raid when Khyber declared his first war, GOONS had declared wars on 5 RLMMO nations. 33% of the alliance was under attack by different GOONS nations. Even if this wasn't the case, one nation attacking RLMMO is still an attack on RLMMO and should be treated as such. RLMMO went to war to protect/avenge their member, Khyber went to war to help his friends, just as Polar nations are doing now.

GOONS had declared more wars on RLMMO because RLMMO was trigger happy and decided to without trying to solve the issue peacefully. And the notion that "one nation attacking RLMMO is still an attack on RLMMO" is ridiculous. Sure, if GOONS backs up the member it is, but it was a one on one tech raid - the kind that happen essentially daily in CN even against alliances, and are still resolved quickly and quietly. I'm no fan of tech raiding, but at the same time, striking back at an entire alliance for the actions of a single unsupported member is a disproportionate response, and "unprovoked" is indeed an appropriate word to use in such a context.

I find your reasoning for this being unprovoked quite amusing, complaining about attacking someone completely unrelated to the tech raid (the only GOONS nation in his range as far as I'm aware, who else would you have him target?) and the clear sarcasm you express when talking about the lack of a piece of paper, considering all the huff and puff you blew in the Athens KoN! situation. Or, despite all the talk of 'going through MK' to get to Athens, am I to believe that you would have only hurt the nations doing the tech raiding?

An alliance-wide tech raid which included government members has absolutely nothing to do with a lone unsupported member tech raiding a single nation. Do keep building up these straw men though, it's quite amusing to watch.

Cool. Except you are defending GOONS in their matters arising from the actual tech raid. The full scale war between RLMMO and GOONS is because of the actual tech raid. The Zombies are helping out their friends in RLMMO because they are at war with GOONS, because of the actual tech raid. This entire issue stems from the fact that GOONS tech raided an RLMMO nation. You will note that I have not expressed any disappointment or any negative view points at all regarding Polar coming to the defense of GOONS, it was to be expected and is to be commended, regardless of how the issue arose. I fail to see the difference between Polar's actions and those of the Zombies, outside of a little piece of paper that you yourself have shown blatant disregard for in the recent past anyway, and are closely allied to an alliance that professes how little they are needed in order to help friends.

I really like how you snuck in a little jab at Polar accusing us of ignoring treaty obligations without getting into enough detail so that you would be required to actually support your bizarre claim.

Sure except for the parts where...

1) of the 18 GOONS-ZDP wars, 16 were declared by GOONS. So it doesn't appear as if RLMMO ever launched an all-out assualt on GOONS.

The number of GOONS-ZDP wars does not relate in the slightest to whether or not RLMMO attacked GOONS or would have attacked GOONS after Kronos.

2) as Khyber explained in the opening peace, he asked GOONS what the deal was and how they would get peace, and when he was told that they never would, he took action.

Maybe RLMMO could have solved this issue quickly and nonviolently, but as Khyber has said, GOONS said it couldn't happen. GOONs could have stopped this non-violently by actually having ways for their tech-raid victims to get peace from their attacks.

RLMMO did not try to get peace before attacking.

Edit: My mistake, I was saying GOONS rather than Kronos. The point stands, however; striking back at Kronos without attempting peace negotiations is a fair indication that RLMMO was not inclined to peace out with GOONS either.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Moridin

[ktarthan]

I wasn't so much arguing about GOONS attacking as I was about it being called an unprovoked war on the part of ZDP. Thanks for clearing that up about Kronos though, I didn't fully understand that when I was looking at the RLMMO wars

Fair enough.

2) as Khyber explained in the opening peace, he asked GOONS what the deal was and how they would get peace, and when he was told that they never would, he took action.

Maybe RLMMO could have solved this issue quickly and nonviolently, but as Khyber has said, GOONS said it couldn't happen. GOONs could have stopped this non-violently by actually having ways for their tech-raid victims to get peace from their attacks.

This whole ordeal has been spread over three rather lengthy discussions (ooc: threads), so it's understandable you haven't heard this yet: GOONS most definitely has ways for tech-raided nations to get peace. Khyber came to talk to us after the confrontation had already been escalated to an alliance-wide war, which is why he got the response he did. If peace was what RLMMO wanted, it was readily available before hand. Not saying that's what they had to do, as they have their own path, but it was definitely an option.

Also, I'm not trying to rag on Khyber for any of his actions. Aside from his defense of Shayde (who I find to be unbearable), Khyber has been nothing but upstanding this whole time.

Edit: grammar

Edited December 8, 2009 by ktarthan

[ChimpMasterFlash]

edit*meh, that didn't work.

Edited December 8, 2009 by ChimpMasterFlash

[lamuella]

You are right, not having treaties does not give you that, you have that right inherently as an independent alliance.

did you miss the "without consequence" part of what you quoted?

[lamuella]

Maybe RLMMO could have solved this issue quickly and nonviolently, but as Khyber has said, GOONS said it couldn't happen.

what?

Khyber asked AFTER RLMMO HAD TURNED THIS INTO A NUCLEAR WAR

GOONs could have stopped this non-violently by actually having ways for their tech-raid victims to get peace from their attacks.

we do have those methods. We use those methods all the time. RLMMO didn't bother to use them.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

Khyber asked AFTER RLMMO HAD TURNED THIS INTO A NUCLEAR WAR

Either that is a lie or you are refering to the tech raid-gone wrong, in which case it is the right of the raided to counter with nuclear weapons, isn't it?

We engaged in diplomacy the very first day, admittedly after you had started your blitz. Same for Kronos.

His DoW on GOONS over a 1v1 tech raid is admirable but still exactly what it is.

The ZDP DoWed GOONS for their blitz on RLMMO, in defense of the latter.

I will call that an unprovoked and opportunist attack and as such I will defend my ally. You will note that I do not defend tech raiding, I am not defending GOONS in their matters arising from the actual tech raid, but rather the unprovoked attack from Khyber's Zombies.

Interesting. It's exactly why we entered in this war and our interpretation of the GOONS actions.

Since I'm sure you don't think Khyber is a fool, I'm wondering why you use "opportunist(ic)" as an adjective to describe his retaliation: he knew full well some allies of GOONS would counter him (or raiders). We didn't expect Polaris but that hardly makes it an opportunist move if you know that your actions will not benefit you in any way.

This is not GOONS picking on the little man, this is RLMMO and ZDP's martyr complex acting up.

Martyr complex? What is it your martyr complex acting up when you joined Vox? What about Polar's allies in the WotC? Did their involvement, in what was sure to be a curbstomp or a really one-sided war, was about a martyr complex?

The only difference, here, is the size of the protagonists. You're better than that, Moridin. We're not in this to be martyrs, we're looking for a peaceful solution, just like we've been looking before.

[Moridin]

Martyr complex? What is it your martyr complex acting up when you joined Vox?

I'm flattered that you think this discussion should be centered around me. I really wish more people thought the same.

What about Polar's allies in the WotC? Did their involvement, in what was sure to be a curbstomp or a really one-sided war, was about a martyr complex?

I can't put my finger on it, but it's almost as if Polar's allies had some sort of written agreement to defend Polar, or vice versa, in such a situation. Help me out?

The only difference, here, is the size of the protagonists. You're better than that, Moridin. We're not in this to be martyrs, we're looking for a peaceful solution, just like we've been looking before.

If you're in it for a peaceful solution, then why are you defending the very people who skipped the diplomatic step entirely and went straight to the nuke screen?

[ktarthan]

Either that is a lie or you are refering to the tech raid-gone wrong, in which case it is the right of the raided to counter with nuclear weapons, isn't it?

We engaged in diplomacy the very first day, admittedly after you had started your blitz. Same for Kronos.

And we started our "blitz" after RLMMO began theirs.

[memoryproblems]

And we started our "blitz" after RLMMO began theirs.

I don't fully understand RLMMO's blitz against GOONS, are we talking about their declaring war against Kronos or what? Like I said earlier, of the 18 wars between GOONS and RLMMO, 16 were declared by GOONS. 2 wars declared against GOONS doesn't exactly constitute as a blitz. Are you saying that you expect you can go to war against somebody with nukes and expect them not to use every measure at their disposal to defend themselves/make you pay?

[Monster]

I don't fully understand RLMMO's blitz against GOONS, are we talking about their declaring war against Kronos or what? Like I said earlier, of the 18 wars between GOONS and RLMMO, 16 were declared by GOONS. 2 wars declared against GOONS doesn't exactly constitute as a blitz. Are you saying that you expect you can go to war against somebody with nukes and expect them not to use every measure at their disposal to defend themselves/make you pay?

RLMMO made this into an actual alliance war without doing any diplomacy first. They fully acknowledge that. They declared or "accepted the war" on GOONS in the same post they did with Kronos, so the absence of a huge counter attack on their part doesn't really matter. RLMMO could have easily just asked for the raid on them to end or just nuked the one or two guys that raided them originally. If the raid target had just nuked Nizzle, I think he was one of them, for six days, I don't think GOONS would have done anything about it since when you raid, you're on your own.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Antoine Roquentin

[ktarthan]

I don't fully understand RLMMO's blitz against GOONS, are we talking about their declaring war against Kronos or what? Like I said earlier, of the 18 wars between GOONS and RLMMO, 16 were declared by GOONS. 2 wars declared against GOONS doesn't exactly constitute as a blitz. Are you saying that you expect you can go to war against somebody with nukes and expect them not to use every measure at their disposal to defend themselves/make you pay?

Sorry, I was referring to their initial attacks on Kronos. (5 attacks isn't exactly a blitz either, which is why I used quotes)

Because RLMMO "accepted" war with both Kronos and GOONS in the same breath, for exactly the same reason, does it not make sense we would consider ourselves at the same risk of attack as Kronos?

I feel the fact that RLMMO only managed to declare hostility on two GOONS nations indicates that RLMMO's attack was uncoordinated and allowed GOONS to gain the initiative. Just because only two of the attacks were declared by RLMMO does not mean that there was only two attacks planned.

Edited December 8, 2009 by ktarthan

[lamuella]

Either that is a lie or you are refering to the tech raid-gone wrong, in which case it is the right of the raided to counter with nuclear weapons, isn't it?

We engaged in diplomacy the very first day, admittedly after you had started your blitz. Same for Kronos.

OK, for the thinking impaired, I will yet again give you the whole timeline:

1) Nizzle raids an RLMMO member

2) RLMMO respond with full nuclear war. I can link you to the thread where they did this if you like.

3) ZDP declare on GOONS

These are the three significant moments of the conflict as far as declarations and such go.

Khyber talked to Lazerc in-between moment 2 (the point where it moved from a raid to a war) and moment 3. In other words, after this had become a war rather than a raid.

If ZDP had come to us before RLMMO escalated things to nuclear war, hell, if anyone at all had come to us before RLMMO escalated things to nuclear war, things could be very different indeed.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Lamuella

[lamuella]

I don't fully understand RLMMO's blitz against GOONS, are we talking about their declaring war against Kronos or what? Like I said earlier, of the 18 wars between GOONS and RLMMO, 16 were declared by GOONS. 2 wars declared against GOONS doesn't exactly constitute as a blitz. Are you saying that you expect you can go to war against somebody with nukes and expect them not to use every measure at their disposal to defend themselves/make you pay?

they didn't use every measure at their disposal. One of the measures at their disposal was talking to us, and they never did.

[Nizzle]

RLMMO made this into an actual alliance war without doing any diplomacy first. They fully acknowledge that. They declared or "accepted the war" on GOONS in the same post they did with Kronos, so the absence of a huge counter attack on their part doesn't really matter. RLMMO could have easily just asked for the raid on them to end or just nuked the one or two guys that raided them originally. If the raid target had just nuked Nizzle, I think he was one of them, for six days, I don't think GOONS would have done anything about it since when you raid, you're on your own.

Truth. I fully expected this to happen, as should every high level raider.

Also, Khyber: My RLMMO nation is bill locked and Jack is apparently busy getting pwned. Are you in my range yet?

EDIT: I too have a !@#$ty warchest...the infra I had purchased it with is now bye bye, though, so I guess it evens out?

Edited December 8, 2009 by Nizzle

[avernite]

I still don't see Nizzle being kicked from GOONS, thus his war was authorized I assume, thus RLMMO was entirely within its rights to say 'ok, see you on the battlefield'.

Now, of course I MAY have missed GOONS saying somewhere 'Nizzle bad. Nizzle will be punished. Sorry!', but the fact that the first three wars between GOONS and RLMMO were declared by GOONS implies that's not really true.

[Nizzle]

I still don't see Nizzle being kicked from GOONS, thus his war was authorized I assume, thus RLMMO was entirely within its rights to say 'ok, see you on the battlefield'.

Now, of course I MAY have missed GOONS saying somewhere 'Nizzle bad. Nizzle will be punished. Sorry!', but the fact that the first three wars between GOONS and RLMMO were declared by GOONS implies that's not really true.

I'm not sure who is saying RLMMO illegally declared war...was it unconventional? Yes, it sure was. Was it their right? Sure was.

Had RLMMO come to GOONS leadership before declaring war on Kronos and GOONS, I may well have had to pay reps or just get stomped for the duration of the war (though my opponent wouldn't have had the cash). They did not, and so here we are. Also, RLMMO stated they were at war with GOONS/Kronos but only initially attacked Kronos. Hence why it appears on the war lists that GOONS initiated the war.

[lamuella]

I still don't see Nizzle being kicked from GOONS, thus his war was authorized I assume, thus RLMMO was entirely within its rights to say 'ok, see you on the battlefield'.

RLMMO never bothered to ask about Nizzle. They went straight from the incident to nuclear alliance war. It's impossible to say what would have happened to him if they hadn't done this. RLMMO's actions change the playing field so much that we can't really say what our reaction would have been.

Think of it like this: You're out with friends, and one of your buddies grabs a drink from someone else's table and takes a swig from it. Without another word passing between you, the guys at that table jump up and start a fight with you and all your friends.

Had they told you what had happened, you might have called your friend a jerk, smacked him across the head and made him buy a round, or leave him to fight them on his own. However, as they started crap with all of you, all bets are off. You're not swinging for the dummy who grabbed the drink, you're swinging for you and your friends.

[Nizzle]

RLMMO never bothered to ask about Nizzle. They went straight from the incident to nuclear alliance war. It's impossible to say what would have happened to him if they hadn't done this. RLMMO's actions change the playing field so much that we can't really say what our reaction would have been.

Think of it like this: You're out with friends, and one of your buddies grabs a drink from someone else's table and takes a swig from it. Without another word passing between you, the guys at that table jump up and start a fight with you and all your friends.

Had they told you what had happened, you might have called your friend a jerk, smacked him across the head and made him buy a round, or leave him to fight them on his own. However, as they started crap with all of you, all bets are off. You're not swinging for the dummy who grabbed the drink, you're swinging for you and your friends.

Best synopsis ever, I think. B)

[Khyber]

OK, for the thinking impaired, I will yet again give you the whole timeline:

1) Nizzle raids an RLMMO member

2) RLMMO respond with full nuclear war. I can link you to the thread where they did this if you like.

3) ZDP declare on GOONS

These are the three significant moments of the conflict as far as declarations and such go.

Khyber talked to Lazerc in-between moment 2 (the point where it moved from a raid to a war) and moment 3. In other words, after this had become a war rather than a raid.

If ZDP had come to us before RLMMO escalated things to nuclear war, hell, if anyone at all had come to us before RLMMO escalated things to nuclear war, things could be very different indeed.

First Lamuella, there is no reason to call Yev an idiot.

You stated "Khyber asked AFTER RLMMO HAD TURNED THIS INTO A NUCLEAR WAR".

The war had still not gone nuclear when I talked. They spoke about it, but to say that it had turned nuclear is incorrect. It goes nuclear when you fire nukes, till then you are dealing with nuclear threats. So if your statement was "Khyber asked after RLMMO threatened to nuke us all" then your statement would have been correct, otherwise it is false in every regard.

[William Blake]

I'm just surprised this is still contested. How easy would it have been for the other two raiders to have been ghosts, just like the 3rd was? Ghosts start wars everyday, thankfully not every alliance is run by the same people as RLMMO, otherwise any idiot could just cause a massive conflict by ghosting MHA for a second and attacking a nation from Sparta. Isn't that enough to show just how foolish the decision to jump straight to a full scale alliance-wide war on the entire AA of the attacking nation over a single war?

I mean, one of the 3 nations was a ghost, what if the ghost had been the sole nation flying the Kronos AA? Then RLMMO would have been DoWing on a completely innocent alliance, completely escalating a stupid war by a ghost into a stupid war by an alliance without taking the 5 minutes it takes to contact them before making fools out of themselves. How is there any argument over this? People can't be this stupid.

[Khyber]

I'm just surprised this is still contested. How easy would it have been for the other two raiders to have been ghosts, just like the 3rd was? Ghosts start wars everyday, thankfully not every alliance is run by the same people as RLMMO, otherwise any idiot could just cause a massive conflict by ghosting MHA for a second and attacking a nation from Sparta. Isn't that enough to show just how foolish the decision to jump straight to a full scale alliance-wide war on the entire AA of the attacking nation over a single war?

I mean, one of the 3 nations was a ghost, what if the ghost had been the sole nation flying the Kronos AA? Then RLMMO would have been DoWing on a completely innocent alliance, completely escalating a stupid war by a ghost into a stupid war by an alliance without taking the 5 minutes it takes to contact them before making fools out of themselves. How is there any argument over this? People can't be this stupid.

They weren't though. YOu can say whatever you want about ghosts, but GOONS and Kronos would not have booted their member out, and indeed stated that they did things fine by their books. You stating the "what if" is all nice and good, but "what if" they were super secret spies placed by the NPO, "what if" they were Admin, "what if"... we all know the facts, and know full well that two of them weren't ghosts.

It is like Gremlins saying to their members that they can tech raid NpO, and their three top guys tech raid your highest NS nation and none of you can do anything to defend him because they are out of reach, and them telling you it was ok in their books, that they won't boot out their members, but speak with them to see about paying reps. Whatever reps you get from those 3 members would never cover the damages done in the first blitz, and your left standing having been cheated, attacked, and with no recourse what so ever. You may speak of the high road of diplomacy, but should this happen time and time again, you will one day draw a line in the sand.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Khyber

[AlmightyGrub]

They weren't though. YOu can say whatever you want about ghosts, but GOONS and Kronos would not have booted their member out, and indeed stated that they did things fine by their books. You stating the "what if" is all nice and good, but "what if" they were super secret spies placed by the NPO, "what if" they were Admin, "what if"... we all know the facts, and know full well that two of them weren't ghosts.

It is like Gremlins saying to their members that they can tech raid NpO, and their three top guys tech raid your highest NS nation and none of you can do anything to defend him because they are out of reach, and them telling you it was ok in their books, that they won't boot out their members, but speak with them to see about paying reps. Whatever reps you get from those 3 members would never cover the damages done in the first blitz, and your left standing having been cheated, attacked, and with no recourse what so ever. You may speak of the high road of diplomacy, but should this happen time and time again, you will one day draw a line in the sand.

Except that isnt what happened...and you really do know it

[Hasin]

As far as I'm concerned once someone presses the 'Declare War' button, then it's a declaration of war. Whether you use ground attacks or nukes after that point is all the same to me. Just different strategies for different purposes. Also I like this version better than a diplomatic version. I don't know if this'll dissuade tech-raiders, but it'll at least tie them up for a little.

[AlmightyGrub]

As far as I'm concerned once someone presses the 'Declare War' button, then it's a declaration of war. Whether you use ground attacks or nukes after that point is all the same to me. Just different strategies for different purposes. Also I like this version better than a diplomatic version. I don't know if this'll dissuade tech-raiders, but it'll at least tie them up for a little.

I don't disagree at all, except there will always be escalation and we will be drawn into things we shouldn't necessarily be.

[lamuella]

The war had still not gone nuclear when I talked.

yes it had. From the moment nukes were promised, it was a nuclear war.