Declaraction of War

[ChimpMasterFlash]

Really? Lamuella, you should fire the crack team of monkeys making these arguements for you.

Threats do not make it a reality, no matter how you cut it.

For example, lets say I got hot under the collar and said "I will nuke each one of your nations while going down." It doesn't make it a reality unless I actually do it. Hence their threat to nuke you all is just that, a threat, until carried out.

I gotta tell ya Kyyber, if someone tells me they are going to hit me in the nose, let alone write it on paper, when I see them I will be the first one swinging. I like my nose and broken ones are hard to breath through.

Declaration of Intent is cause for preemptive strike.

[Khyber]

I gotta tell ya Kyyber, if someone tells me they are going to hit me in the nose, let alone write it on paper, when I see them I will be the first one swinging. I like my nose and broken ones are hard to breath through.

Declaration of Intent is cause for preemptive strike.

Even if they send their friend to try and defuse the hostility before they punch you in the nose?

By your very example you allow your hands to punch someone, and then say you won't defend your hand's action but you accept it is it's right, and expect that the punched person won't punch you back in the nose.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Khyber

[ktarthan]

Even if they send their friend to try and defuse the hostility before they punch you in the nose?

By your very example you allow your hands to punch someone, and then say you won't defend your hand's action but you accept it is it's right, and expect that the punched person won't punch you back in the nose.

I'm not in charge of GOONS policy so I'll leave the first point alone.

The second point, though, I feel is a little absurd. Chimp was making an analogy to try and explain our reaction to RLMMO's expressed intent to harm GOONS (and Kronos). I am positive he did not also intend for the analogy to cover our policy on tech raiding and support thereof, so if you try and rework it as an argument against said policy of course it isn't going to make any sense.

[Merrie Melodies]

I gotta tell ya Kyyber, if someone tells me they are going to hit me in the nose, let alone write it on paper, when I see them I will be the first one swinging. I like my nose and broken ones are hard to breath through.

Declaration of Intent is cause for preemptive strike.

Damn you for making sense.

[ChimpMasterFlash]

Even if they spray paint your car then send their friend to try and defuse the hostility before they punch you in the nose?

fixed.

Edited December 9, 2009 by ChimpMasterFlash

[Nizzle]

Even if they send their friend to try and defuse the hostility before they punch you in the nose?

I think we should first agree that RLMMO is very decentralized. They have no clear leadership, and this can be seen by interacting with them in public. For each member of their alliance they have a different theory on how things should go, and no one from them has stepped forward to say "I decide what will happen."

I also think we should agree that you tried to defuse the hostility to help a friend, and not entirely because they wanted to be helped.

[Khyber]

I think we should first agree that RLMMO is very decentralized. They have no clear leadership, and this can be seen by interacting with them in public. For each member of their alliance they have a different theory on how things should go, and no one from them has stepped forward to say "I decide what will happen."

I also think we should agree that you tried to defuse the hostility to help a friend, and not entirely because they wanted to be helped.

Both your comments are true. In your second though there were friends in there that weren't so gun hoe about going to war, and it was mostly those friends that I wanted to find a peaceful solution for. Like any alliance there are those that are more militant and those that are pretty peaceful.

[nippy]

I also think we should agree that you tried to defuse the hostility to help a friend, and not entirely because they wanted to be helped.

This. Also, upon reading their discussions about this situation on their [ooc]boards[/ooc], it's more than apparent that they were hitting GOONS after Kronos. The sympathy card can no longer come into play here. My alliance was declared upon within these forums and was already an intended target prior to our retaliation for their declaration.

Consequently, I'm not quite sure how you're able to tolerate associating with them, Khyber. You seem to exceed their maturity levels by a couple decades.

e: personalization

Edited December 9, 2009 by nippy

[wickedj]

I would never attack an alliance for tech raiding, they have worked just as hard as I have for mine and I respect that. Tech raid a none, people delete all the time.

You realize this theory makes you a hypocrite, right? you're either some horrible awful and terrible person who tech raids..or not. those nones if you would bother sending them a recruitment message rather than GA's could be in your alliance

And yes, i am late to this thread

[nippy]

You realize this theory makes you a hypocrite, right? you're either some horrible awful and terrible person who tech raids..or not. those nones if you would bother sending them a recruitment message rather than GA's could be in your alliance

And yes, i am late to this thread

Our tech raids themselves have been rather successful recruitment messages, actually. We have no issue with people applying to us after being impressed with our skills. It's a much better response than some emotional breakdown that results in a ragequit. It's a fine way to weed out the imbeciles you normally find on a none hunt.

[Xavii]

I think its obvious that RLMMO shot itself in the foot when they decided to go agains GOONS as a whole instead of just beating up Nizzle, who most likely would have enjoyed it.

[lamuella]

Really? Lamuella, you should fire the crack team of monkeys making these arguements for you.

Threats do not make it a reality, no matter how you cut it.

they had declared war, and declared that they intended to make that war weapons-free. That wasn't a threat, it was a statement of intent, and we took them at their word.

For example, lets say I got hot under the collar and said "I will nuke each one of your nations while going down." It doesn't make it a reality unless I actually do it. Hence their threat to nuke you all is just that, a threat, until carried out.

edited to remove the immature snark from this line.

Let's say that rather than it being a threat to nuke it was you pulling a gun out and pointing it at a cop, while yelling that you were going to shoot him. Are you saying that the cop isn't justified in defending himself until you have fired?

I came to you before the threat was carried out to find a peace, you however shot it down. RLMMO is being told to seek diplomacy when they get tech raided, yet you don't have to when someone threatens you then asks me to find find a peaceful resolution before they carry out any threat.

perhaps if you'd come to us before it turned from a raid into a war, you'd have had better luck. Your tardiness is not my error.

They didn't threaten us. They declared war on us. Sure, they'll claim they were "recognizing" a war we didn't declare, but that doesn't change the fact that they turned a limited engagement from one of our nations and one of theirs in which peace had already been offered into a multi-nation situation.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Lamuella

[Khyber]

They didn't threaten us. They declared war on us. Sure, they'll claim they were "recognizing" a war we didn't declare, but that doesn't change the fact that they turned a limited engagement from one of our nations and one of theirs in which peace had already been offered into a multi-nation situation.

Please reread what they posted. They said that a GOONS member had attacked them, and they accept their war. It was a recognition of hostilities.

With no wars declared yet against you, you had the option of finding a solution. You over reacted just as much as they did in my mind. If either of you decided to use diplomacy it would have been solved a lot sooner.

[ChimpMasterFlash]

Please reread what they posted. They said that a GOONS member had attacked them, and they accept their war. It was a recognition of hostilities.

With no wars declared yet against you, you had the option of finding a solution. You over reacted just as much as they did in my mind. If either of you decided to use diplomacy it would have been solved a lot sooner.

while it was worded to look like what you are saying kyber, the RLMMO member already said earlier in this thread that they were declaring that they reconized a allaince state of war with GOONS and Kronos. I'm sry but RLMMO already nixed that argument.

[MagicalTrevor]

I got a war out of this. I'm happy

[Believland]

It's pretty obvious who the aggressor is here. GOONS honestly had no need to hit RLMMO with plenty of "nones". There is no excuse to tech raid someone with a true affiliation.

The fact that Khyber, Yev and the rest of ZDP had stepped in, for their friends, really shouldn't matter if they have a treaty. I believe Polaris's(who is also taking a front) has the same type of policy. And the fact that Polaris had stepped into the KoN/Athens situation, which is basically the same thing. The major difference being that RLMMO had a recognition of hostilities, or even a Declaration of war, if you're going to take the GOONS side. Either way it honestly doesn't matter, the situation should have been handled reasonably by both alliances.

[Nizzle]

It's pretty obvious who the aggressor is here. GOONS honestly had no need to hit RLMMO with plenty of "nones". There is no excuse to tech raid someone with a true affiliation.

The fact that Khyber, Yev and the rest of ZDP had stepped in, for their friends, really shouldn't matter if they have a treaty. I believe Polaris's(who is also taking a front) has the same type of policy. And the fact that Polaris had stepped into the KoN/Athens situation, which is basically the same thing. The major difference being that RLMMO had a recognition of hostilities, or even a Declaration of war, if you're going to take the GOONS side. Either way it honestly doesn't matter, the situation should have been handled reasonably by both alliances.

You find me a "None" nation with 60-80k NS and we can talk.

Until then, there is a reason behind raiding some alliances.

[nippy]

It's pretty obvious who the aggressor is here. GOONS honestly had no need to hit RLMMO with plenty of "nones". There is no excuse to tech raid someone with a true affiliation.

The fact that Khyber, Yev and the rest of ZDP had stepped in, for their friends, really shouldn't matter if they have a treaty. I believe Polaris's(who is also taking a front) has the same type of policy. And the fact that Polaris had stepped into the KoN/Athens situation, which is basically the same thing. The major difference being that RLMMO had a recognition of hostilities, or even a Declaration of war, if you're going to take the GOONS side. Either way it honestly doesn't matter, the situation should have been handled reasonably by both alliances.

I think you posted this same thing several pages back. No qualms about reiterating statements that have already been debunked, eh?

[ooc]feel free to read up on what RLMMO's plans were here. I believe you will find how truly unreasonable they really are.[/ooc]

[Believland]

You find me a "None" nation with 60-80k NS and we can talk.

Until then, there is a reason behind raiding some alliances.

Well wouldn't there still be no reason? Saying that the nukes being taken would greatly damage your nation. Or who ever the raider was.

I think you posted this same thing several pages back. No qualms about reiterating statements that have already been debunked, eh?

[ooc]feel free to read up on what RLMMO's plans were here. I believe you will find how truly unreasonable they really are.[/ooc]

I didn't say you were the only ones unreasonable. Like I've said before NpO is being unreasonable even in this war. You're being unreasonable because you want to make ZDP pay, what was it? 300 mil? and I believe that RLMMO is also being unreasonable by not asking for reps. But I can respect their opinion. I just believe that a white peace or some reps from Kronos and Goons should be sent to RLMMO.

PS: Like I stated before I think this whole situation is stupid and should have had cooler heads prevail

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

You're being unreasonable because you want to make ZDP pay, what was it? 300 mil?

Just to clarify, BE, that was indeed very close to the number we were first approached with but it has since gone down much.

Obviously, if they want to make a satisfying compromise, they need to start a bit higher than what would be reasonable.

[shayde]

I don't see this very clear provocation of which you speak, in fact from from seeing a provocation I smell an opportunism at work. If Khyber had chosen to wade in and ''protect'' the nation already at war, citing their unbreakable but previously undeclared love for each other, I could maybe draw that very long bow with you, but instead he picked someone totally unrelated to the tech raid at all and, having done his research, knew full well there would be no adequate response possible from GOONS. His DoW on GOONS over a 1v1 tech raid is admirable but still exactly what it is.

I will call that an unprovoked and opportunist attack and as such I will defend my ally. You will note that I do not defend tech raiding, I am not defending GOONS in their matters arising from the actual tech raid, but rather the unprovoked attack from Khyber's Zombies. Unprovoked is such a powerful word, especially when it is completely justifiable.

But alas we can argue this forever and a day, I will see it my way, and you will be wrong and vice versa.

To think Khyber used this as an opportunity to wade into this war "unprovoked" just shows how little you know about us.

We in RLMMO have known Khyber for a long time, bled alongside him during many wars, built each other up and supported each other forever. We've all lived under the same flag and apart. There could be no truer friend to RLMMO.

So y'all can twist the "justification" for this war any way that makes you sleep at night, but I will not stand for impugning Khyber, and ZDP's motivations. They stepped up to help us out of friendship, and in bleeding with us, they are our brothers.

Unprovoked? Hardly.

[shayde]

If ZDP had come to us before RLMMO escalated things to nuclear war, hell, if anyone at all had come to us before RLMMO escalated things to nuclear war, things could be very different indeed.

Nukes couldn't be launched for 24 hours, well after everything you said have taken place. So claiming it was escalated to a "nuclear war" is disingenuous.

There's also plenty other wrong, but that's all been said before.

[shayde]

I gotta tell ya Kyyber, if someone tells me they are going to hit me in the nose, let alone write it on paper, when I see them I will be the first one swinging. I like my nose and broken ones are hard to breath through.

Declaration of Intent is cause for preemptive strike.

So when Nizzle and two of his friends punch us in the face, and all their friends are behind them itching for a beatdown, we're supposed to think your intentions are pure?

Riiiiiiiight.

If you want to play barfight comparisons, we're a group who is outnumbered, and just got punched for NO REASON. The only way to survive is to find some weapons and fight dirty trying to take down as many as we can.

[Eden Taylor]

So when Nizzle and two of his friends punch us in the face, and all their friends are behind them itching for a beatdown, we're supposed to think your intentions are pure?

Riiiiiiiight.

If you want to play barfight comparisons, we're a group who is outnumbered, and just got punched for NO REASON. The only way to survive is to find some weapons and fight dirty trying to take down as many as we can.

It sounds like that's the definition of dying, not surviving.

[shayde]

You find me a "None" nation with 60-80k NS and we can talk.

Until then, there is a reason behind raiding some alliances.

Yup. Greed.

Not like you can't buy tech from plenty of building alliances.