From someone who's been on both sides

[The AUT]

We often conflict in our view of how the Karma War went down, and most notably how it has effected the post-Hegemonic era.

Clearly everyone sees everything in their own views, their own perspectives, vantage points. Having been on both sides, I'll try and be as unbiased as possible on how a person who's seen both views.

Before this war, the Hegemony controlled everything. If you weren't allied to the Hegemony, you were tied to the Hegemony in some way. This resulted in a very stagnant and uncontrollable MDP web. The game was played for security, since the Hegemony played for security. No bloc went against the Hegemony directly, however they had their own mind and vision.

Now onto the question, was the Hegemony oppressive? I have to argue, without a doubt, it was very oppressive. I know not all Hegemonic alliances approved of the oppresive climate of the time, however they had no real authority to speak out on it via military means until the Karma War.

Want proof CN was oppresive? How many in the War of the Coalition were reduced to being EZI'd and having to go to some damn forums, supported by Crymson and TOP btw, to apologize for war crimes and plead to continue playing the game? How many were driven from the game due to being told they just can't play anymore they way they wanted? The climate was oppressive, the Hegemony brutal. The Hegemony argued they could do what they wanted, to whomever they wanted, if you wanted to "do something about it," you'd have to go through them militarily. This was probably one of the darkest days on Planet Bob. A dark cloud appeared to have settled on this game.

The terms handed down to the defeated alliances was meant to cripple that alliance so it would learn its lesson and walk away. Hell, there was a good chance these alliances would be attacked again for some shady cause and be finished off once and for all. This left many alliances uneasy, not trusting of the Hegemony but not exactly strong enough to take them on by themselves.

Although I don't know what spurred the call for change with much of the former Hegemonic, that includes you SF, that includes you Citadel, and any former Q members, what I do know is that the momentum to change Planet Bob had surfaced. All of a sudden people spoke up, talking back to the NPO which was almost a faux pas in the past was now almost natural. I know most in this game wanted a change, but for once they were "doing something about it" since large alliances started to move against the Hegemony.

Now let's avoid the whole issues of the war, and jump to the conclusions. Were their atrocities such as EZI and harsh terms (for the most part) set forth against the Hegemony? No, some wanted to start a precedent however as we all know Karma was diverse they all wanted something different. Why were the likes of TPF, Echelon and NPO forced to take harsh reparations? Well, if you read more into it, quite simply, the people who fought them in that war held grudges. Why did the opponents of Valhalla impose very light terms? Because they didn't hold grudges. For some, depending on who they fought, Karma was a !@#$%*.

I remember hitting Karma nations on a non-specific AA, before the Coward Coalition declared, and wondering if I'd find peace again or be EZI'd. Because, back in the War of the Coalition, you'd be EZI'd for doing such a thing. However Karma didn't think anything of it. I bounced from AA to AA fighting Karma nations with the feeling that when this war is done nothing will be held against me and I can play this game, and that was probably enough to call the Karma war a success.

My issue with Karma was the measuring stick they were using. The terms on Echelon, as GOD and MA have said many times over, was a grudge and they didn't care how harsh they were. That's fine, it's honest. However the terms on NPO many have said, "it's nothing compared to what you've done in the past." And how about, "these reps aren't harsh in the least, in fact you got off light."

How the hell is paying the largest sum in CN history seen as "getting off light"? The fact is you used the former Hegemony as a measuring stick to how you wanted to conduct peace operations. And you placed damn near all of the blame on the NPO. So although Karma isn't nearly as bad as the Hegemony, the true motives behind their actions to place all the blame on the NPO seem very harsh. If you wanted to set a precedent, why place all the blame on the NPO? Did you know the most active alliance enforcers of EZI were GGA and IRON?

Fact is, in the end, Karma spent all their effort and energy into showing the NPO a lesson. The reps amount isn't getting off light, yes they may play the game like the rest of us and maybe you didn't force them to decommission any wonders or disband but you used past tactics as a measuring stick to how best deal with the current situation and in that way, Karma was like the Hegemony.

Again, I'm not asking anyone to agree with me or see my view of things. I just wanted to give you a perspective from someone who's experienced both sides.

[Comrade Craig]

Putting aside concepts like "morality" and "justice" for a moment, I fought because it seemed like good fun at the time, and I worked towards peace when the fight became dull. I get as irrational as anyone, and I occasionally hold grudges and get more angry than I should; but it wears of quickly. Ironically, this war has earned me far more friends on the former Hegemony side than enemies. I think that is how the game should be played. Wars aren't fights; they're matches, like a game of football (or chess): good sportsmanship should always carry the day.

-Craig

[Londo Mollari]

Now let's avoid the whole issues of the war, and jump to the conclusions. Were their atrocities such as EZI and harsh terms (for the most part) set forth against the Hegemony? No, some wanted to start a precedent however as we all know Karma was diverse they all wanted something different. Why were the likes of TPF, Echelon and NPO forced to take harsh reparations? Well, if you read more into it, quite simply, the people who fought them in that war held grudges. Why did the opponents of Valhalla impose very light terms? Because they didn't hold grudges. For some, depending on who they fought, Karma was a !@#$%*.

I remember hitting Karma nations on a non-specific AA, before the Coward Coalition declared, and wondering if I'd find peace again or be EZI'd. Because, back in the War of the Coalition, you'd be EZI'd for doing such a thing. However Karma didn't think anything of it. I bounced from AA to AA fighting Karma nations with the feeling that when this war is done nothing will be held against me and I can play this game, and that was probably enough to call the Karma war a success.

You're welcome.

[bkphysics]

I think many viewed the NPO as the root of a lot of the hegemonic supposed crimes that were committed. GGA and IRON may of been the big enforcers, but many thought the NPO was the puppetmaster. Thinking of it that way, it makes sense why the NPO took the biggest flogging.

[The AUT]

You're welcome.

You're the one who gave me up to EZI when I was in Athens.

[Lonely]

I read the entire article and I thought it was very interesting and well-written. However, it's a little too long for me to respond to all of it, so I'll simply comment on Voxian surrenders post-War of the Coalition. Voxians were forced to surrender on the Unjust Cause forums to harvest IPs. People could and did use proxies, but I'm sure they got some people. I read every single one of the surrender threads and I found that people barely involved in the movement would be denied surrender or entirely ignored. It was a fascinating read. Take a look for yourselves.

Edited November 30, 2009 by The Lonely Man

[Ogaden]

Everyone who held a MDP or higher with NPO, or an MDP or higher with someone who did, helped to enable NPO in whatever it was they chose to do.

There are very few alliances who can claim to have never assisted NPO in their dominance of the world, and most of those alliances weren't part of Karma either.

In the end though, it's all just paper, and paper can be torn up and thrown in the garbage.

[ShinRa]

How the hell is paying the largest sum in CN history seen as "getting off light"?

Reps could have been bigger,

viceroys could have been enforced (and given total control over the government undisclosed period of time),

players could have been banished or forced to never hold a governmental position ever again,

the war could have gone on for longer to place the NPO in a worse position,

they could have turned Pacifica into one giant tech-farm under the guise of rebuilding the alliance,

the peace agreement could have been refused then had Karma beat the NPO into accepting more favourable ones;

and Karma could have trumped up some fake evidence or reason to attack the NPO and besiege them for several years whilst in peace mode.

I am not saying for one second that Karma ever would, but if we're judging the NPO’s punishment by 'an eye for an eye' justice then the Pacificans got off light. Very light.

Edited December 1, 2009 by ShinRa

[SunnyInc]

I thought it was already generally accepted that the main Karma players were just as bad as their Hegemonic predecessors?

Edited December 1, 2009 by SunnyInc

[Bilrow]

I read the entire article and I thought it was very interesting and well-written. However, it's a little too long for me to respond to all of it, so I'll simply comment on Voxian surrenders post-War of the Coalition. Voxians were forced to surrender on the Unjust Cause forums to harvest IPs. People could and did use proxies, but I'm sure they got some people. I read every single one of the surrender threads and I found that people barely involved in the movement would be denied surrender or entirely ignored. It was a fascinating read. Take a look for yourselves.

I'm sure Reyne and Old Guard paid the price for that travesty, since that was the contact in that situation.

Oh wait..that's right, they didn't.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Bilrow

[Penkala]

Yes, clearly SF was a part of the Hegemony. You just don't get any differences between the way people operated, TheAUT. You consider every alliance to hold an MDP or higher with NPO to be part of the Hegemony, and just ran to avoid a curbstomp. I fear the differences would just be glossed over by you based on our last debate - you seem unable to look at facts that justify your point of view.

Oh, and NpO was rolled for many of the same reasons as Pacifica was. They had almost as bloody and oppressive of a history. What happened to them was 100% justified. NpO wasn't innocent, at all. That was as much about removing an oppressive force as the Karma war was.

Edit:

I remember hitting Karma nations... wondering if I'd find peace again or be EZI'd. Because, back in the War of the Coalition, you'd be EZI'd for doing such a thing.

No, you wouldn't. Stop making !@#$ up, AUT. Nobody will take you seriously if you do.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Penkala

[Vilien]

Oh wait..that's right, they didn't.

You do the work of lining them up against the wall, we'll be happy to shoot them.

[Bilrow]

You do the work of lining them up against the wall, we'll be happy to shoot them.

Meh, why do I have to do the work.

[Imperator Hades]

Actually, Karma didnt base their actions on the Hegemony, if thay had did that, then NPO would have been disbanded and all its members hiding in the shadows from the threat of PZI

[Bob Janova]

NPO 'got off light' compared to what could have been done to them. Anyone who is saying they got off lightly in absolute terms is wrong, though. The idea with NPO's terms was not to be light, but to be fair. The reparations are large and somewhat onerous, but there is a lack of purely crippling terms like wonder or factory decom, or violations of sovereignty like demanding members be kicked or a viceroy appointed. (Modifications to foreign affairs aren't a grave violation of sovereignty.) So no, their terms aren't light, but they are light compared to what could have been done to them.

Also, are you sure you posted this in the right place?

[The AUT]

Yes, clearly SF was a part of the Hegemony. You just don't get any differences between the way people operated, TheAUT. You consider every alliance to hold an MDP or higher with NPO to be part of the Hegemony, and just ran to avoid a curbstomp. I fear the differences would just be glossed over by you based on our last debate - you seem unable to look at facts that justify your point of view.

Oh, and NpO was rolled for many of the same reasons as Pacifica was. They had almost as bloody and oppressive of a history. What happened to them was 100% justified. NpO wasn't innocent, at all. That was as much about removing an oppressive force as the Karma war was.

Edit:

No, you wouldn't. Stop making !@#$ up, AUT. Nobody will take you seriously if you do.

Do you ever actually ever read the damn OP or do you just spew out anything and quote a particular part of the OP to make it look like you actually read it? Read the entire thing then get back to me. A little reading doesn't hurt. It's almost as ridiculous as your claim that "SF and Citadel freed Planet Bob" bit.

What happened to the super duper treaty MHA, a key member of SF, held with Pacifica? And Rok's treaty with Pacifica? Oh, let's forgot about those. They clearly weren't part of the Hegemony, they just supported the head honcho of it in every way imaginable. Great logic, *waves wand* all is absolved. Really that simple, isn't it?

Edited December 1, 2009 by The AUT

[Londo Mollari]

You're the one who gave me up to EZI when I was in Athens.

I told you when you joined us midwar that if you were on EZI lists we couldn't protect you. What did you want me to do? Drag the war out for all of CnG to try to get you peace, when you were just planning to leave Athens and found an alliance with Jack the Great and Youwish959 anyway? We were almost all in bill lock at that point anyway, wasn't a lot we could do either way.

You disgust me.

[The AUT]

I told you when you joined us midwar that if you were on EZI lists we couldn't protect you. What did you want me to do? Drag the war out for all of CnG to try to get you peace, when you were just planning to leave Athens and found an alliance with Jack the Great and Youwish959 anyway? We were almost all in bill lock at that point anyway, wasn't a lot we could do either way.

You disgust me.

Never said there was anything you could do about it, just not thanking you.

[Watson895]

If Cybernations were football, EZI and draconian terms would be like positioning a sniper to kill anyone who made a touchdown. If you can get away with it, it's certainly a very effective way to win the Superbowl, but when all is said and done, something is taken away from the game. Eventually there is nobody left to play against.

On the other hand, some of these moralists go too far. There is nothing wrong with a little war now and then. Declare war, surprise cuddling, do the spiderman for good measure, and peace out. Hell, the most fun in a war is had in the first 24 hours before nukes come into play. I've got nothing against a few week long wars here and there. The way things are now though with the treaty web, one 20 man alliance attacks another, and it escalates into 90% of the globe lobbing nukes for 3 months.

[Learz]

I'd never think I'd say this, but... you're right, AUT.

As one who has also fought on both sides -- a considerable amount -- and has been ZI'ed 3-5 times by the NPO (depending on who's counting), yet defended them with a vengeance, I'd like to think I have a decent view on things. Or at least, a less discriminating view (i.e., I hate everyone equally).

I've been fighting against the NPO before many people joined the game. I'm been fighting them before many of NPO yes-men became Karma yes-men. Where was everyone when the NPO was running wild? Cheering them on, or keeping their heads down hoping to slip by. You rode on the NPO's backs, then turned on them -- perhaps like the NPO has done to others.

I'll cut myself off at this point, before I go on a minor tirade, but I will say this. Stockholm syndrome doesn't just apply to NPO colonies puppets supporters. It also applies to people on Karma's side.

Your hate blinds you.

/Star Wars ripoff

Edit for typos >.>

Edited December 1, 2009 by Learz

[Lonely]

I'm sure Reyne and Old Guard paid the price for that travesty, since that was the contact in that situation.

I dislike Reyne. She deserves to get her comeuppance one day, but there are more important people to worry about. However, your claims that she was running the show and Pacifica was not involved are ludicrous. I can link you to posts proving NPO's involvement if you so desire.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not claiming NPO's or Old Guard's actions are immoral, because e-morality is worse than useless.

[USMC123]

What happened to the super duper treaty MHA, a key member of SF, held with Pacifica? And Rok's treaty with Pacifica? Oh, let's forgot about those. They clearly weren't part of the Hegemony, they just supported the head honcho of it in every way imaginable. Great logic, *waves wand* all is absolved. Really that simple, isn't it?

MHA is in Superfriends? I must have missed that memo.

As for RoK being treatied to NPO, when exactly was that treaty activated? I'm pretty sure (note: I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right), Ragnarok never entered a war directly from their treaty with the NPO. Regardless, IMHO, RoK should have never signed that treaty as NPO was always fair-weather friends of Ragnarok.

[The AUT]

MHA is in Superfriends? I must have missed that memo.

As for RoK being treatied to NPO, when exactly was that treaty activated? I'm pretty sure (note: I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right), Ragnarok never entered a war directly from their treaty with the NPO. Regardless, IMHO, RoK should have never signed that treaty as NPO was always fair-weather friends of Ragnarok.

Oh, my bad. I sometimes confuse MHA with Fark.

The point with the treaty with the NPO still stands, though.

[NoFish]

Oh, my bad. I sometimes confuse MHA with Fark.

The point with the treaty with the NPO still stands, though.

They had treaties that were canceled long before the war. I have trouble keeping up with this pseudo-moralist crap sometimes but is it immoral to cancel a treaty with an alliance after you figure out they aren't really your friends, now? And then even more immoral to honor your existing treaties and protect your real friends when said alliance comes looking to grind them into the dirt?

[Bilrow]

I dislike Reyne. She deserves to get her comeuppance one day, but there are more important people to worry about. However, your claims that she was running the show and Pacifica was not involved are ludicrous. I can link you to posts proving NPO's involvement if you so desire.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not claiming NPO's or Old Guard's actions are immoral, because e-morality is worse than useless.

I didn't say NPO wasn't involved. Just pointing out that some of us have paid our dues and yet others haven't.