Avalon Lodges a Formal Complaint

[AirMe]

Alright let me get this straight.

A while ago Stickmen complain that they are left out of the purple award ceremony. People get mad….drama ensues….things calm down….and world keeps spinning.

Instead of trying to work for a more unified sphere and to increase relations you instead mass spam other alliances members with recruitment messages? And you didn’t expect drama? Really?

Either Stickmen was trying to make drama or they reallllyyyyy need to get their brains examined.

I got a message to and got a good laugh out of it. I found it amusing how they did this after complaining about the award thing. The irony tasted oh so sweet to me.

Also: I’m up for a good challenge Stickmen. I’m sure your 200~ members will put up a good fight against the over 2k nations we have. But next time, how about leaving people who don’t vote in the senate out of it?

Avalon asked nicely. If you don’t stop then it’ll only prove to many how childish you really are.

Avalon didn't ask nicely, they ran to a public forum, set up their soap box and began to shout to the world. Asking nicely would have been contacting the government of Stickmen Alliances in private and asking them to stop.

[Canik]

I'm not "playing" anything "off", I'm expressing an opinion which you happen not to share. No need to taint our discussion by questioning my honesty.

I neither know nor care what they might say, and don't see where "rolling over like punks" comes into it as it's too emotive given the actuality. It might well be propaganda, if it is Avalon needs to up it's game.

I have defended nothing, you asked a question and I shared an imagined strategic scenario and I didn't express a qualitive judgement to it seperate from, nor including my suggestion of how another alliance may have dealt with it. It's simple postulation lacking any moralising.

1) But I do question your honesty, which is one reason this discussion will be ending very shortly. Another being I can't sit here and argue all day.

2) Wait, what? You're saying you don't see where rolling over could come into play because it's too emotive given the actuality (of the situation I presume), yet you're criticizing us for being emotional. It sounds like you're trying to have it both ways, which is exactly what I was talking about, ironically.

3) Ah, I see. Well, in that case I should thank you for being unbiased in that respect.

I'd imagine that having found such a simple way to upset a rival alliance it's too good an opportunity to waste, especially as it might help a bid for senate.

That was most likely their motivation, I imagine, and not the most honorable one if I don't say so myself.

Btw, you imagine a lot. Try reality.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Canik

[Benjamin Arouet]

Instead of trying to work for a more unified sphere and to increase relations you instead mass spam other alliances members with recruitment messages? And you didn’t expect drama? Really?

Emphasis mine.

I'm hoping you mean senate voting messages, because otherwise you're missing the point of the thread big time. There's a huge difference, one is a breach of sovereignty, the other is at worse a nuisance. Also, whether they expected drama or not is really irrelevant now as this has been blown out of all proportion.

Also: I’m up for a good challenge Stickmen. I’m sure your 200~ members will put up a good fight against the over 2k nations we have. But next time, how about leaving people who don’t vote in the senate out of it?

I really don't think anyone is in a position to turn the righteous indignation in this thread into anything more than the big *bawwww* session it is. If you want to though, be my guest, I'd love to see how that turns out for you.

[Canik]

My point still stands.

And so does mine. Only mine is better, because Purple Alliances aren't causing any problems for anyone else by not keeping it's members constantly informed on the entirety of their government. Also, until now alliances mass messaging other alliances was almost unheard of, except in guerrilla warfare. So why would they worry about it so?

I've been asked to change colors at least 6 times in the last 2 weeks, while I'm in an Orange alliance. Sounds just as political to me.

Then you must be in the process of finding a trade circle. Trades are so essential, it's a whole different story.

If that's the kind of nations that Invicta has, then sure. A vote is a vote.

Yeah...

Regards, Jan Doedel.

Yeah... any alliance that recruits is gonna have new members. Go figure.

[Jan Doedel]

And so does mine.

No.

Only mine is better

Again, no.

, because Purple Alliances aren't causing any problems for anyone else by not keeping it's members constantly informed on the entirety of their government.

Apparently they do, ot this thread woun't be there. Also, I love how you imply that a relevant number of Purple nations cannot read.

Also, until now alliances mass messaging other alliances was almost unheard of, except in guerrilla warfare.

You should check your messages once in a while.

So why would they worry about it so?

They don't have to, but apparently they do. It's not too hard to ignore one more message.

Then you must be in the process of finding a trade circle.

Nope, I already got one, but people assume I'm looking for one, apparently.

Trades are so essential, it's a whole different story.

That is a very arbitrary judgment, and one I obviously don't support.

Yeah... any alliance that recruits is gonna have new members. Go figure.

And if an alliance can't be arsed to send new members a welcome package and lead them to their forum, that alliance get what it deserves. In this case, it's Michiel de Ruyter as Senator.

Regards, Jan Doedel.

[Sun WuKong]

I'm pretty sure the NPO used to Spam everyone on the red team regardless of alliance at one point in time. I could be wrong thought since I have never been on the red team.

Edit, eh, poor quote choice, but you get the point.

You are totally mis-characterizing that. While the Moldavi Doctrine was in effect, there WERE no other alliances on Red. NPO spammed their members and any remaining Red nations - who were unaligned by definition.

[Kroknia]

I stand by that messaging aligned people for senate seats is a good idea and should be expanded. Every nation should vote for the senate candidate that will do the most for the color and the nation, which may, or may not, be one that their alliance endorses. I'd be annoyed if people were sending me messages to vote on the purple senate, but then again I'm not purple. I'd welcome it for whatever color I was residing on at the time.

I mean if you want absolute control over everything every nation in your alliance does or wants, I can see your problem with this, otherwise it is better for the expansion of democracy on color spheres and can only be praised.

[Vilien]

You are totally mis-characterizing that. While the Moldavi Doctrine was in effect, there WERE no other alliances on Red. NPO spammed their members and any remaining Red nations - who were unaligned by definition.

Pacifica still spams everyone on Red asking them to vote for their candidates, and yes, there are other alliances on Red.

[Mathias]

Polite? Really? I'm extremely disappointed in you, AirMe.

Well, whatever. Let the flood gates open, citizens of Planet Bob. This is a great new era of morality indeed.

Yes, because sending messages to other nations is truly what will be the end of us all.

May admin have mercy on our souls, for the senate elections will have none.

[Fronz]

You are totally mis-characterizing that. While the Moldavi Doctrine was in effect, there WERE no other alliances on Red. NPO spammed their members and any remaining Red nations - who were unaligned by definition.

There were no other alliances based on the red team, yes. However other alliances had members that were on the red team at the time. They got messaged whether they were in the NPO or not. However I would say the situation is a bit different in this case.

Regardless, my point is mass messaging a team color for senators is nothing new, from what i hear this is a regular occurrence on teams like aqua and orange. I can even recall mass messages being sent out on the maroon team during times of war, none of which created a thread like this. It seems to me people are just sore they lost a senate seat because stickmen put the time and effort into campaigning for the senate seat, and are trying to use any means necessary to call them out on it. IE. infringing sovereignty, impersonating government members ect.

[Canik]

Apparently they do, ot this thread woun't be there. Also, I love how you imply that a relevant number of Purple nations cannot read.

Whoa, calm down buddy. That's a ridiculous amount of quotes, and your typos are threatening the legibility of your writing. And no, I did not in any way imply that. You're really reaching for that one. I see you're implying that the Purple nations message could check the nation the message sender was from, but as I said, there are new nations who may make the mistake, and even a veteran nation may be fooled and once they vote for that cycle, they can't take it back.

I like how you try to make it out to be Purple's fault for not preparing for this type of warfare and not Stickmen's for sending the messages.

If Stickmen just stated who they were, it would eliminate any possible confusion, but they wouldn't want that now would they? Either that, or like I said they're lazy/disorganized.

You should check your messages once in a while.

... Riiight. I'm not going to argue against this, because the fact that people aren't receiving political messages from other alliances speaks louder than words. You can't trick people into thinking they get more messages like these than they actually do.. well, actually, I don't know.. people are stupid, but yeah.

They don't have to, but apparently they do. It's not too hard to ignore one more message.

It's even less hard to not send those messages to begin with.

Nope, I already got one, but people assume I'm looking for one, apparently.

Then you either have very valuable resources, or are one of the luckiest nations on Planet Bob. I have Iron & Uranium, and I'm not bombarded with trade/TC offers. I get maybe one every other month, and my current trades aren't that great. I'd be a great prospect to invite to a circle.

That is a very arbitrary judgment, and one I obviously don't support.

Okay, well you go make the case that a Senate Seat is just as important as everyone having trades. In the meantime, the status quo is to not sanction unless absolutely necessary because of the importance of trades.

And if an alliance can't be arsed to send new members a welcome package and lead them to their forum, that alliance get what it deserves. In this case, it's Michiel de Ruyter as Senator.

Regards, Jan Doedel.

That's right, death to weak alliances! Let's hear it everyone! Death! Death! Death!

Edited October 8, 2009 by Canik

[Lord Philip]

I mean if you want absolute control over everything every nation in your alliance does or wants, I can see your problem with this, otherwise it is better for the expansion of democracy on color spheres and can only be praised.

Exactly, at best it's totalitarian.

[Canik]

Exactly, at best it's totalitarian.

If you forced that nation to stay, yes. Unfortunately for that argument, if they stay it means they support their alliance's policies, if they don't like them they can leave.

[Guffey]

And Avalons, and purples response right now equates to calling the company up and threatening to come blow up the building.....and some want this to escalate to actually blowing up the building.

Do you understand how idiotic this is?

Its actually more like a salesman is calling us up and we tell them to take us off their list please, but in a manner so that all salesmen might know to take us off their list.

Avalon does not hold sides in any Senate Race between the two purple blocs. But when you try to sway our members to one side, then we take issue with it, and as we have shown, will encourage our members to vote the other way.

We are not angry with Stickmen, and do not care if they pursue a Senate seat on purple. We just wished to be left out of the senate competitions, that is all. This is our notification to ALL purple alliances to leave us out, but specifically stickmen because it appears they did not know about our stance and did not care to find out.

[Epiphanus]

As an honorary member of SLCB, I will formally lodge a complaint to anyone who cares...

In all seriousness though, purposely trying to make purple unstable is a bit of a dick move.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Epiphanus

[Jan Doedel]

your typos are threatening the legibility of your writing.

Can't find anything else to complain about?

And no, I did not in any way imply that. You're really reaching for that one. I see you're implying that the Purple nations message could check the nation the message sender was from, but as I said, there are new nations who may make the mistake, and even a veteran nation may be fooled and once they vote for that cycle, they can't take it back.

Not reaching at all. If they read the message and then vote for the person they don't want to vote for, they're morons. If they don't read the message and still vote for the person they don't want to vote for, they're morons or they can't read (or both).

I like how you try to make it out to be Purple's fault for not preparing for this type of warfare and not Stickmen's for sending the messages.

I like it how you try to make this incident a war, and not an invitation to vote for a senator. I also like it how you try to to blame Stickmen for the fact that apparently a lot of people can't or don't read a message before doing exactly as they're asked by someone they don't know, who isn't even in their own alliance. I'm very thankful I'm on Orange.

Either that, or like I said they're lazy/disorganized.

I'm sure that there are some lazy people in Stickmen, but apparently they have a lot of active people as you can see by the many message they have sent. Also, read herring.

... Riiight. I'm not going to argue against this, because the fact that people aren't receiving political messages from other alliances speaks louder than words.

Of course you're not going to argue against this, since you have shown no proof and I have. Therefore, you have no choice but to concede.

You can't trick people into thinking they get more messages like these than they actually do..

I've never claimed I received more messages then I do, but if I did I probably could trick someone into thinking that, if I wanted to. Yeah, people are stupid.

My point exactly.

It's even less hard to not send those messages to begin with.

The amount of work was not up for debate, as far as I know.

Then you either have very valuable resources, or are one of the luckiest nations on Planet Bob.

I have Lumber/water. I'm sorry you're feeling neglected, and if I ever need iron and uranium, I'll be sure to send you an offer.

Okay, well you go make the case that a Senate Seat is just as important as everyone having trades. In the meantime, the status quo is to not sanction unless absolutely necessary because of the importance of trades.

Exactly. Both are strategically valuable.

That's right, death to weak alliances! Let's hear it everyone! Death! Death! Death!

Yeah, my words exactly. Oh, wait...

Regards, Jan Doedel.

[Jingoist]

I’m up for a good challenge Stickmen. I’m sure your 200~ members will put up a good fight against the over 2k nations we have.

words words words words. unless you actually plan on action, i suggest you not waste time with idle, empty threats.

[Lord Brendan]

I must say I'll be fairly amused if Stickmen manage to hold the top seat against all of Poseidon.

[Lord Philip]

If you forced that nation to stay, yes. Unfortunately for that argument, if they stay it means they support their alliance's policies, if they don't like them they can leave.

Well that's a totalitarian stance on it's own.

In many of the alliances I've enjoyed being a member of if you didn't like something you could attempt to change it, it would be open for honest discussion and on those few occassions when you could actually come up with something better it was genuinely welcome even in those run as a dictatorship.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Lord Philip

[Sylar]

I must say I'll be fairly amused if Stickmen manage to hold the top seat against all of Poseidon.

more like sad. Poseidon alone holds 1000K nations if they cant beat stickmens like 400 thats just really sad.

[Molleh]

Its actually more like a salesman is calling us up and we tell them to take us off their list please, but in a manner so that all salesmen might know to take us off their list.

If all of CN was salesmen, I suppose so. Otherwise it's like having an announcement on the news to tell the world you don't want salesmen to call you.

A bit over the top I think.

[wickedj]

more like sad. Poseidon alone holds 1000K nations if they cant beat stickmens like 400 thats just really sad.

1000k? Always knew purple was shady but hiding THAT many nations...

Also: I’m up for a good challenge Stickmen. I’m sure your 200~ members will put up a good fight against the over 2k nations we have. But next time, how about leaving people who don’t vote in the senate out of it?

Dont forget Vanguard expressed support for Stickmen

Edited October 8, 2009 by wickedj

[Locke]

IAA will be spamming purple with a "Vote Starfox" campaign.

Tempting.

I am just throwing this out there....but....New Reverie needs to show you what spamming a color for a senate seat really is. He invented and perfected the maneuver.

I still can't believe Avalon + PEACE are getting bent out of shape about this. Senate's should be free and not oppressed by the controlling majority on a color. Not to mention, Senate spots are horribly overrated anyways.

Someone should send Daily Words of Wisdom to all purple nations. If you think one senate voting message was bad, well...you get the picture. By creating this thread, all you did was open yourself up to a whole new can of worms instead of just handling this privately.

Wonderful to know that we can look to you when we want to know how to run purple purple affairs.

Well, I've seen that Invicta has deemed this an act of war, for impersonating government, or something along those lines. For whatever happens in this situation, Stickmen can count on our support.

Well, I can see who hasn't read the topic in full. And you said so, that helps too. Invicta has said no such thing.

I wonder what will happen when Stumpy sees this thread?

He already did.

As I stated earlier, this does happen to us. We laugh about it on IRC for about 4 minutes and that is the end of it. We actually get this a lot since we are not based on any color.

So, got any purple nations we can spam?

Avalon didn't ask nicely, they ran to a public forum, set up their soap box and began to shout to the world. Asking nicely would have been contacting the government of Stickmen Alliances in private and asking them to stop.

I don't think there's any universe in which that OP could be considered anything but polite and respectful. All it says is "we prefer to remain neutral in the senate race, please desist messaging our members." That's it. Just put very nicely.

1000k? Always knew purple was shady but hiding THAT many nations...

IAA gave us the purgatory mode technology.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Locke

[AirMe]

Wonderful to know that we can look to you when we want to know how to run purple purple affairs.

So, got any purple nations we can spam?

If you make a public spectacle about something because it is your sovereign right then it is my sovereign right to tell you your full of crap or over exaggerating a non issue.

Yes, we have 2 Purple nations. But I am fairly sure neither of them want anything to do with relations with PEACE given their history on Purple. You won't be seeing a thread from me complaining how two of the nations inside my alliance received a message asking them to vote for a senator. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find if they had already voted for someone else.

Edited October 8, 2009 by AirMe

[Canik]

Can't find anything else to complain about?

Is that a complaint?

Not reaching at all. If they read the message and then vote for the person they don't want to vote for, they're morons. If they don't read the message and still vote for the person they don't want to vote for, they're morons or they can't read (or both).

You were reaching in your claim that I was implying that Purple nations can not read. You know, I'm starting to think you're not trying to spin this stuff, you just have a hard time comprehending and really believe what you're saying. Amazing. Humans are so intriguing.

I like it how you try to make this incident a war, and not an invitation to vote for a senator. I also like it how you try to to blame Stickmen for the fact that apparently a lot of people can't or don't read a message before doing exactly as they're asked by someone they don't know, who isn't even in their own alliance. I'm very thankful I'm on Orange.

More like an invitation for war.

I'm sure that there are some lazy people in Stickmen, but apparently they have a lot of active people as you can see by the many message they have sent. Also, read herring.

Apparently they don't have time to mass message for recruitment, either that or they're just not very good at it. Considering how small the Stickmen alliances are.

Of course you're not going to argue against this, since you have shown no proof and I have. Therefore, you have no choice but to concede.

You've shown proof that most nations receive political messages from foreign alliances? Where? Oh, by your own personal testimony and experience? Which, even then you didn't provide screenshots so we are purely taking your word for it. That's hardly proof. Also, my proof is there, it's in your inbox. Or rather, it isn't in your inbox.

I've never claimed I received more messages then I do, but if I did I probably could trick someone into thinking that, if I wanted to. Yeah, people are stupid.

You never claimed to receive more messages later you do? That doesn't make sense. Anyway, you know damn well people aren't receiving messages like these all the time.

The amount of work was not up for debate, as far as I know.

You said, " It's not too hard to ignore one more message. ", implying that if it were hard work to ignore a message, it would be more serious. Apparently amount of work does have something to do with something since you fit it in there. Following your line of logic, if you can call it that, I pointed out it would take even less work to simply not send those messages to begin with. Follow?

I have Lumber/water. I'm sorry you're feeling neglected, and if I ever need iron and uranium, I'll be sure to send you an offer.

Aww, thank you. You have no idea how much that means to me.

Exactly. Both are strategically valuable.

Except one much, much more so.

Yeah, my words exactly. Oh, wait...

Regards, Jan Doedel.

Oh yeah, I forgot people always say exactly what they mean. It was wrong of me to assume you followed the 'survival of the fittest' philosophy. Which would mean death to weak alliances, and they deserve it, because they're weak.

Seriously, I did go overboard a bit there. However, it's not far from your line of thinking.