Why GOD and RIA cancelled on Nemesis

[Poyplemonkeys]

No it isn't.

See, I can make random claims too.

Difference being mine are correct and yours are not.

Nemesis did not 'back out' of anything. We committed ourselves to defending GOD from AB until GOD signed terms with us. Nemesis did not ignore any treaty. Nemesis is not mad that GOD cancelled on us

The difference between us is when I make 'random claims' I make sure I am right about them. Something neither you or Thrawn seem to do.

[Poyplemonkeys]

Double posting

Edited October 5, 2009 by Poyplemonkeys

[Delta1212]

Inferences based on the follwing.

1) The proximity of the cancellations.

2) GOD having the actual dispute {the issues surrounding AB's peace terms}

3) "Lack of communication" being cited as reason for cancellation despite there being attempts from our side.

The list goes on really.

The proximity of the cancellations was because the trigger for us evaluating the various reasons for us holding a treaty with Nemesis was the same for RIA and GOD. It was you running your mouth on IRC about certain things (OOC: Edit: Oh yeah, it was calling Xiphosis pro-CP for visiting /k/, a gun board on 4chan, the C standing for Child for those who are slow on the uptake) which annoyed Xiphosis and brought Nemesis to the forefront of our thoughts. GOD realized that it no longer wanted a treaty with you, and our gov and membership hadn't talked to you in ages/forgot the treaty even existed.

If there was an attempt at communication with us, it wasn't directed at me or anyone else I in gov that I know of because none of us had had a real conversation with Nemesis since Hoo and Bob dropped off the face of... Bob.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Delta1212

[commander thrawn]

Difference being mine are correct and yours are not.

Nemesis did not 'back out' of anything. We committed ourselves to defending GOD from AB until GOD signed terms with us. Nemesis did not ignore any treaty. Nemesis is not mad that GOD cancelled on us

The difference between us is when I make 'random claims' I make sure I am right about them. Something neither you or Thrawn seem to do.

Then my sincerest apologies. I wonder then what Blacky is going on about however.

[Balder]

Given I had spoken with almost all of them to attempt to get AB peace?

Then perhaps you should have said "almost" all of them, as opposed to you know, including everyone in your statement because it packs a better punch.

Next time, I will call the iClean hotline to make sure my comments are iClean approved.

Good call, it should help stem the sensationalism found in your posts a tad. Heck, I'll go so far as to give you my approval on this part of your post. My name is iClean and I support the latter part of this message.

Both CnG and SF had committed significant portions of their strength to engaging and defeating the NPO, and this task was considered too important by everyone involved for an issue with AB to be allowed to flare into a bloc war. The war of which you speak would have never been allowed to happen, simple as that.

The truth is that if Nemesis felt that GOD was being so immoral and unreasonable, they should have canceled the treaty themselves so that they didn't have to work together in the future. In Xiphosis' eyes an ally is someone who will back you up no matter what, and in essence, you proved yourself unworthy as an ally in his eyes because you failed to back him up in this matter. This is not to say that Xiphosis' actions toward AB were proportionate or made a lot of sense or were even justified - but the important issue from GOD's perspective is simply that you failed to provide unconditional support, even if you didn't agree with the decision. From what I can tell, that is the standard that GOD demands - and gets - of its allies. Absolute trust, and unwavering loyalty. If you aren't willing to provide an alliance like GOD with unconditional support like that, you shouldn't sign with them in the first place.

I would personally be unwilling to make that level of commitment to GOD in the long term, although I maintained it throughout the prosecution of the Karma war when we were both engaged with NPO while I worked long and hard to find a terms solution that all parties could live with. Anyway, what I have gathered from this discussion is that Nemesis and GOD have different standards that they hold their allies to, and Blacky is butthurt about this difference and somehow thinks that revealing that GOD canceled over this issue will make GOD look bad. As far as I see it, it doesn't. GOD is a sovereign alliance led by Xiphosis. If you don't trust Xiphosis or don't enjoy working with him or whatever, you shouldn't hold a treaty with GOD. Simple as that. No need for all the butthurt and people trying to stir up crap between C&G and SF.

Seriously though Londo, this is precisely why I love you. You are a wise man and a good friend.

One day Xiphosis, the time may come where an alliance has their boot on your neck, and you better pray that they are better people than you.

Oh, Caffine, the irony here is delicious. You really shouldn't try to play the victim, it doesn't suit you all that well .

1.) Forced disbandments are bad. No one will argue with that, remember that in my coming post.

I will argue that. It depends entirely on the situation though.

The difference between us is when I make 'random claims' I make sure I am right about them. Something neither you or Thrawn seem to do.

You just made my day. Never once in my entire time on Planet Bob have I once seen Kevin's credibility attacked. I haven't had a laugh that good in quite some time, thank you.

[Blacky]

The proximity of the cancellations was because the trigger for us evaluating the various reasons for us holding a treaty with Nemesis was the same for RIA and GOD. It was you running your mouth on IRC about certain things (OOC: Edit: Oh yeah, it was calling Xiphosis pro-CP for visiting /k/, a gun board on 4chan, the C standing for Child for those who are slow on the uptake) which annoyed Xiphosis and brought Nemesis to the forefront of our thoughts. GOD realized that it no longer wanted a treaty with you, and our gov and membership hadn't talked to you in ages/forgot the treaty even existed.

Xiphosis clearly stated his reasons for cancelling. If you would like to bring new reasons to light then please do.

OOC: Red herring much? The incident you're refering is entirely out of the scope of IC and was an heated OOC argument on net neutrality. Are you citing that as your reason now?

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

OOC: Red herring much? The incident you're refering is entirely out of the scope of IC and was an heated OOC argument on net neutrality. Are you citing that as your reason now?

I believe it was that convo that reminded them that they had some ties to Nemesis, which in light of the said communication lapses, they had forgotten. So they revisited the treaty.

[Delta1212]

Xiphosis clearly stated his reasons for cancelling. If you would like to bring new reasons to light then please do.

OOC: Red herring much? The incident you're refering is entirely out of the scope of IC and was an heated OOC argument on net neutrality. Are you citing that as your reason now?

That wasn't the reason. I didn't say it was the reason. I'm saying that argument is what reminded both of us that we had treaties with you and caused us to review them. We each then canceled independently of the other. It wasn't the cause of the cancellations, but it was the direct cause for the review of the treaties and why we both canceled around the same time.

[Poyplemonkeys]

aaaand triple posting too

Edited October 5, 2009 by Poyplemonkeys

[SpacingOutMan]

And just to spite Goose, if things had gone down with AB, CSN would have backed GOD entirely, even if we were persistent of our own doom. I mean come on, we declared on One Vision in defense of GATO... not all of GOD's allies would have 'up and ran'. Just sayin'.

Edited October 5, 2009 by SpacingOutMan

[Blacky]

That wasn't the reason. I didn't say it was the reason. I'm saying that argument is what reminded both of us that we had treaties with you and caused us to review them. We each then canceled independently of the other. It wasn't the cause of the cancellations, but it was the direct cause for the review of the treaties and why we both canceled around the same time.

Again, Xiphosis cited his reason as "breaking ranks in the Karma war" and claimed that it was put to an alliance vote and that he had merely been putting it off. So again you are citing a new reason but it's wholly irrelevant.

The reason was and still remains that Xiphosis was dissatisfied with Nemesis not willing to take part in the forced disbandment of AB.

[Il Impero Romano]

Xiphosis clearly stated his reasons for cancelling.

You keep saying it like they are bad, forbidden reasons and act as if some sort of massive transgression has taken place here.

If anything is inferred by those logs, it is that over the course of the issue in question your alliance expressed an attitude reasonably unbecoming of an ally. The cancellation then, is not due to your dissent of opinion, but rather the manner in which you dissented and subsequently treated the canceling alliances.

I'm not sure what your so upset about?

Edited October 5, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[commander thrawn]

Again, Xiphosis cited his reason as "breaking ranks in the Karma war" and claimed that it was put to an alliance vote and that he had merely been putting it off. So again you are citing a new reason but it's wholly irrelevant.

The reason was and still remains that Xiphosis was dissatisfied with Nemesis not willing to take part in the forced disbandment of AB.

A disbandment which we have all noticed didn't happen.

And what are you trying to accomplish?

[Delta1212]

Again, Xiphosis cited his reason as "breaking ranks in the Karma war" and claimed that it was put to an alliance vote and that he had merely been putting it off. So again you are citing a new reason but it's wholly irrelevant.

The reason was and still remains that Xiphosis was dissatisfied with Nemesis not willing to take part in the forced disbandment of AB.

I'm citing a reason for the timing, not the cancellation. And I'm still waiting on the edge of my seat for the proof that RIA's cancellation was anything other than what we said it was that warranted sticking us in the title and OP of this topic.

[Xiphosis]

We sign MDPs. When we're attacked, we expect you to back us up. If you decide you're going to leave the war before the war is finished, you're not an ally we want. You guys sent an old friend of mine to tell me that he no longer had the support of his alliance to be an ally to us, and despite how crazy it made me at the time, I squashed the urge to cancel on you on the spot and left it to my members.

They agreed, but they also sensibly agreed that it'd be poor form to show any disunity in a war. If your morals come before your treaties, we're not interested in being allied with you. Bottom line. Our other allies stayed in the game till we could agree. Nemesis did not. You guys, and LoSS, pursued white peace separate from the front. It was stalled for so long that by the time GOD was done, you guys were still trying to hash it out. I offered to let Nemesis sign our terms as a last act between the two of us, Hoo agreed.

[OOC] Back to homework [/OOC]

[Lord Boris]

If your morals come before your treaties, we're not interested in being allied with you. Bottom line.

Friendship > Infra > morals?

Welp, at least you're honest about where you stand, Xiphosis. I'll give you that.

[Kataklizm the Great]

Logs show Xiph called a vote to drop the treaty with Nemesis during the war, after Nemesis refused to help assassinate AB. GOD voted to drop Nemesis (during the war) while Nemesis's government was intact and unchanged. Nemesis stayed until AB had peace (with GOD). At this point, we think everything is great. Weeks later, GOD tells Nemesis of the cancellation. Hours later, RIA follows along. Since the vote happened before any change in government, there can only be one reason for the cancellation.

[Hyperion321]

Nemesis has a beef with GOD and RIA. Nemesis isn't allied to GOD and RIA anymore. Everyone wins.

What the hell is the point in this argument anymore.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Hyperion321

[Poyplemonkeys]

What are you talking about? Where in that quote does it say that he wanted allies that will force alliances to disband? Stop extrapolating where there is no need for extrapolation... it's not helping your argument at all.

The quote is Xiph giving notice of cancellation because we 'broke ranks for moral reasons' and because GOD needs allies to be with them 'no matter what' which when taken in conjunction with the other logs where he explicitly states he does not wish AB to ever get peace are fairly clear to me. If you have another interpretation of what he means by us breaking ranks for moral reasons by all means share it because I'd like to hear.

*Stuff about Hoo that doesn't say anything that disagrees with my post snipped*

No, you are seeing what you want to see. Allies should stick by each other BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEIR FREAKING TREATY SAYS THEY SHOULD DO. I can't be one of a select few of people who freaking realize that treaties have writing, and that writing says you have to do certain things, meaning compromising and giving concessions. God forbid someone actually reads a treaty and makes an edit to it.

I don't mean to vent to you, but seriously people, don't !@#$@#$ sign treaties with people who are going to do !@#$ that you really don't like or support if you are going to be pugnacious with your ideals, which is no wrongful act in itself.

Allies should stick by each other. We signed a treaty that committed us to the defence of GOD, and we honoured it to the letter. When AB declared war on GOD we countered and continued to wage war with them until GOD had peaced out. What our treaty did not say is we should agree on every single thing, sacrifice our sovereignty as an alliance to agree with what GOD wanted, and support actions we found to be utterly reprehensible, just because we had a treaty that said we'd defend them from aggressive attacks.

The really funny thing about that last paragraph is it could have been written by me and presented to GOD.

[Blacky]

If your morals come before your treaties, we're not interested in being allied with you. Bottom line.

Last I checked the treaty didn't say "partake in forced disbandments of sovereign alliances".

And what are you trying to accomplish?

I was trying to bring this issue to the public light and have thus already accomplished what I was trying to.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Blacky

[Cornelius]

Nemesis has a beef with GOD and RIA. Nemesis isn't allied to GOD and RIA anymore. Everyone wins.

What the hell is the point in this argument anymore.

The point of this argument is somebody with a grudge trying to drag two of our allies' names through the mud.

[Poyplemonkeys]

You just made my day. Never once in my entire time on Planet Bob have I once seen Kevin's credibility attacked. I haven't had a laugh that good in quite some time, thank you.

Oh right. You see I didn't know I was attacking his credibility by pointing out that he hadn't made sure he was right before he made his 'random claim' in this thread. I attacked the credibility of his comment. It seems I was entirely justified in that because if you look right above you, the person Kevin was agreeing with apologised for his incorrect comments. Quite hilarious though I agree.

[Delta1212]

Last I checked the treaty didn't say "partake in forced disbandments of sovereign alliances".

I was trying to bring this issue to the public light and have thus already accomplished what I was trying to.

I'm still waiting for evidence that you didn't just make stuff up about RIA because you don't like us.

[Bob]

We sign MDPs. When we're attacked, we expect you to back us up. If you decide you're going to leave the war before the war is finished, you're not an ally we want. You guys sent an old friend of mine to tell me that he no longer had the support of his alliance to be an ally to us, and despite how crazy it made me at the time, I squashed the urge to cancel on you on the spot and left it to my members.

They agreed, but they also sensibly agreed that it'd be poor form to show any disunity in a war. If your morals come before your treaties, we're not interested in being allied with you. Bottom line. Our other allies stayed in the game till we could agree. Nemesis did not. You guys, and LoSS, pursued white peace separate from the front. It was stalled for so long that by the time GOD was done, you guys were still trying to hash it out. I offered to let Nemesis sign our terms as a last act between the two of us, Hoo agreed.

[OOC] Back to homework [/OOC]

Statement is incorrect, my apologies Xiph. I believe MA and TTK had reached separate peace agreements (MA is different since only KaitlinK was involved).

We were in the war to protect GOD. We did so, and I think we did it with pride and the best we could. However, the point at which it became a personal vendetta and not a war is the point at which Nemesis was no longer interested in being involved. They (the membership) did not approve of staying in the war for the disbandment of AB.

That being said, we went into the treaty knowing that you are big on revenge (no offense meant on the wording Xiph) and we should have realized that something like this could have been asked of us. That was the difficulty.

Friends > morals > infra, but when friends ask you to shoot a cripple after the two of you just beat him up in a barfight, its hard to say yes.

[Xiphosis]

Last I checked the treaty didn't say "partake in forced disbandments of sovereign alliances".

It also doesn't allow either party to decide for themselves when the war is over.

I believe MA and TTK had reached separate peace agreements (MA is different since only KaitlinK was involved).

TTK did. MA didn't. And TTK-GOD had our own fall-out as anyone on Maroon can attest to, we settled that.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Xiphosis