Blacky Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) I know that the main reason it was signed was the trust in the original tri of Nemesis, so when they all left it only stands to reason that the treaty would not be far behind. What I see from those logs is that after fighting alongside Nemesis Xiph felt that GOD and Nemesis were too different to hold that treaty and it seems GOD as a whole agreed. The decision to cancel the treaty was made before the original Triumvirate left. And I agree we were too different in that we did not support the forced disbandment of alliances. Apparently cooler heads prevailed and he abandoned that task. You call it 'cooler heads prevailing' Xiphosis called it 'breaking rank' Stark difference there I'll let you contemplate it. Edited October 5, 2009 by Blacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) GOD could have forced whatever the hell they wanted on AB without Nemesis' "approval." Also, could you please explain to me this tendency RIA has that I've never seen despite being allied to them for over a year now? Please, enlighten me. Not really. If if had gotten to the point that GOD was going to "keep them at ZI forever" as someone said they could, or forcefully disband them, all Nemesis and other alliances on the AB front had to do was make their own terms with AB, thereby making AB their protectorate. Any further warring or aggressive moves against AB while a PoW would have brought GOD into war with allies/former allies. When an alliance signs treaties or enters cooperative war, they sign away a lot of their power/potential. GOD could not have "forced whatever the hell they wanted" on AB, as history has shown. That's why they needed Nemesis et al's help/approval. Durr. Edited October 5, 2009 by Schattenmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) AB had more than one treaty partner. While Xiphosis may be tactless, he's not completely inept. At that point AB was weakened considerably. I suppose it had to do with the political climate at the time. Xiphosis didn't want to be seen as being the sole conspirator in a forced disbandment so they backed out. In turn, they put it to a vote and cancelled our treaty. Now this situation makes a bit more sense, and although these treaties should have been canceled anyway because of the obvious lack of friendship, it sounds like this was RIA and GOD's loss. Treaty partners with morals are always good treaty partners. Edited October 5, 2009 by Nintenderek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 The decision to cancel the treaty was made before the original Triumvirate left. And I agree we were too different in that we did not support the forced disbandment of alliances. You're clearly a liar. This topic was started this morning, not 2 months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Im going to self harm for saying this i know it.Xiphosis is one of the best leaders in CN (IMO) and if he wanted to push for Disband then this alliance did something to annoy him and his alliance no matter how big or small. Im no fan of Xiphosis or GOD for that matter however i have worked with most othe bigger members in my time and they would not just chuck it to the wind to do somthing like this and risk there alliance they have spent 3 years and at lest the same amount of name changes to build. Blacky for your sake and your alliance try and work things out as Xiphosis/GOD are not the kind of enamy you need Trust me been there. Or just forget what i said deal with it. You sir, are an idiot. Xiphosis wanted to disband AB because of a grudge that he held from something that happened with one of the alliances that merged to form AB. It was also something that he wasn't involved in personally, it was a grudge he held because of something that was done to someone else. AB is full of good people and no alliances, I REPEAT, no alliance should be forced to disband. PERIOD. All AB did in the Karma war was honor their treaty with Echelon and you think that deserves disbandment? GOD FORBID PEOPLE HONOR THEIR DAMN TREATIES ANYMORE. Blacky, why did you post this thread....now you got me fired up....I am going to need to go get some IC heart medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
commander thrawn Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 My question is this. Blacky what are you trying to do with this thread? It seems to me either you are whining that your treaty's have been cancelled and therefore you want them back (which if you don't agree with GOD et al then you shouldn't want them back anyway.) You are infringing on GOD's sovereignty which is just plain stupidity. Or you are hoping that you can garner enough political will through a pouting match that you will get a war going. None of these seem like wise courses of action. And it seems like your treaties should have been cancelled anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 The first week of the war, Xiphosis and I discussed the pros and cons of when and how to give AB peace in light of the fact that Xiphosis had serious issues with AB but we also didn't want to piss off all of AB friends. The second week consisted of all of those friends, their friends and random bystanders querying Xiphosis non-stop demanding to know why he hadn't given AB peace yet and informing him that of he didn't soon it would be immoral. It got to the point where he disn't want to log on and couldn't even stand to discuss the subject with us. Now, I don't know how many of you actually know Xiphosis, but he's the kind of person that, the more you tick him off, the less likely he is to give you what you want. This is the point at which he started saying he'd disband AB. The third week had him avoiding Coldfront as much as possible and a group of us going around getting the people who querybombing him to knock it off. Once he wasn't being deluged by messages calling him a monster, the whole situation was resolved. It was in the middle of that that Nemesis bailed. That's fine, they have their priorities and they should stick to them. Xiphosis's number one value, that he puts over everything else, is being a trustworhy ally and one that can be counted on in any situation and he's one of the few people I know who actually bases his allies on his ideals. Nemesis found a situation in which they could not find a way to support GOD. That's fine but it makes them incompatible allies and the testy was canceled. I'm sure the better route would have been to hold on to a treaty with an ally GOD didn't feel it could trust. For my own part, I just no longer knew Nemesis gov and didn't really trust Blacky in a position of power. It was the same event that made both GOD and RIA evaluate these things at the same time and sub-sequently cancel: namely Blacky running his mouth on IRC. I don't think he's gotten over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Not really. If if had gotten to the point that GOD was going to "keep them at ZI forever" as someone said they could, or forcefully disband them, all Nemesis and other alliances on the AB front had to do was make their own terms with AB, thereby making AB their protectorate. Any further warring or aggressive moves against AB while a PoW would have brought GOD into war with allies/former allies.When an alliance signs treaties or enters cooperative war, they sign away a lot of their power/potential. GOD could not have "forced whatever the hell they wanted" on AB, as history has shown. That's why they needed Nemesis et al's help/approval. Durr. As someone who is very familiar with the treaty web circa the Karma war I will disagree with you here. GOD had the backing and the power to do what they wanted with AB. Xiphosis however is not an idiot and probably realized that in the long run it would be better to just let them go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 As someone who is very familiar with the treaty web circa the Karma war I will disagree with you here. GOD had the backing and the power to do what they wanted with AB. Xiphosis however is not an idiot and probably realized that in the long run it would be better to just let them go. I wonder how GOD would have liked being at war with Polar and possibly MK at the time. We were still treatied to AB during the war. And Polar was tied via another treaty I believe (I can't speak for Polar, but Grub had given AB support at the time if I remember correctly.) Wonder how that would have worked out for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) I wonder how GOD would have liked being at war with Polar and possibly MK at the time. We were still treatied to AB during the war. And Polar was tied via another treaty I believe (I can't speak for Polar, but Grub had given AB support at the time if I remember correctly.) Wonder how that would have worked out for them. Wouldn't have worked out great for polar or MK either, GOD was hardly isolated and jumping in to "support" an ally weeks after they were declared on would have been a funny move from both of you. Edited October 5, 2009 by KingSrqt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacky Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) Blacky what are you trying to do with this thread? In truth I'm still disgusted and have a resentment towards them for their actions. And it seems like your treaties should have been cancelled anyway. I agree fully. summary: poor Xiphosis I'm sorry if I don't have sympathy for somebody who wanted to forcefully disband a sovereign alliance and didn't get his way. Edited October 5, 2009 by Blacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryievla Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 There were other alliances involved we all did not agree with Xiphosis' reasoning for the forceful disbandment of AB. Again, both sets of logs have been posted both the cancellation and the discussion that went on at the time. Did GOD and RIA cancel on the other alliances that disagreed, or just Nemesis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 The first week of the war, Xiphosis and I discussed the pros and cons of when and how to give AB peace in light of the fact that Xiphosis had serious issues with AB but we also didn't want to piss off all of AB friends.The second week consisted of all of those friends, their friends and random bystanders querying Xiphosis non-stop demanding to know why he hadn't given AB peace yet and informing him that of he didn't soon it would be immoral. It got to the point where he disn't want to log on and couldn't even stand to discuss the subject with us. Now, I don't know how many of you actually know Xiphosis, but he's the kind of person that, the more you tick him off, the less likely he is to give you what you want. This is the point at which he started saying he'd disband AB. You know, it could have all been avoided by just giving AB white peace from the beginning. Wouldn't have worked out great for polar or MK either, GOD was hardly isolated and jumping in to "support" an ally weeks after they were declared on would have been a funny move from both of you. After reading this, I kinda wished this would have happened, just so I could have seen the resulting possible three sided war that could come of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicknight Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I love this thread so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Wouldn't have worked out great for polar or MK either, GOD was hardly isolated and jumping in to "support" an ally weeks after they were declared on would have been a funny move from both of you. It also shows the ridiculousness of your claim that GOD could have "done it if they wanted too." It is a war that would have destroyed both CnG and SF. AB didn't deserve the fate they were being issued. I know, I worked on the situation. Kaitlin had even given AB peace....and she was the one with the beef. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacky Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) Did GOD and RIA cancel on the other alliances that disagreed, or just Nemesis? They didn't hold treaties with the other alliances at war with AB alongside GOD. Edited October 5, 2009 by Blacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) Did GOD and RIA cancel on the other alliances that disagreed, or just Nemesis? Basically all his allies disagreed with him into week 2 and week 3. EDIT: They didn't hold treaties with them or else they would have. You don't know this otherwise you wouldn't have stated it. If you would have taken time to research your claim a bit, he really didn't have the support of anyone. Edited October 5, 2009 by AirMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 The first week of the war, Xiphosis and I discussed the pros and cons of when and how to give AB peace in light of the fact that Xiphosis had serious issues with AB but we also didn't want to piss off all of AB friends.The second week consisted of all of those friends, their friends and random bystanders querying Xiphosis non-stop demanding to know why he hadn't given AB peace yet and informing him that of he didn't soon it would be immoral. It got to the point where he disn't want to log on and couldn't even stand to discuss the subject with us. Now, I don't know how many of you actually know Xiphosis, but he's the kind of person that, the more you tick him off, the less likely he is to give you what you want. This is the point at which he started saying he'd disband AB. The third week had him avoiding Coldfront as much as possible and a group of us going around getting the people who querybombing him to knock it off. Once he wasn't being deluged by messages calling him a monster, the whole situation was resolved. It was in the middle of that that Nemesis bailed. That's fine, they have their priorities and they should stick to them. Xiphosis's number one value, that he puts over everything else, is being a trustworhy ally and one that can be counted on in any situation and he's one of the few people I know who actually bases his allies on his ideals. Nemesis found a situation in which they could not find a way to support GOD. That's fine but it makes them incompatible allies and the testy was canceled. I'm sure the better route would have been to hold on to a treaty with an ally GOD didn't feel it could trust. For my own part, I just no longer knew Nemesis gov and didn't really trust Blacky in a position of power. It was the same event that made both GOD and RIA evaluate these things at the same time and sub-sequently cancel: namely Blacky running his mouth on IRC. I don't think he's gotten over it. How do you call Nemesis refusing to support an aberration "bailing." That's fine but it makes them incompatible allies and the testy was canceled. Two were cancelled, so that makes it testes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Did GOD and RIA cancel on the other alliances that disagreed, or just Nemesis? Interested in this idea, would like to subscribe to the replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) It also shows the ridiculousness of your claim that GOD could have "done it if they wanted too." It is a war that would have destroyed both CnG and SF. AB didn't deserve the fate they were being issued. I know, I worked on the situation. Kaitlin had even given AB peace....and she was the one with the beef. They could have, It would not have been a slam dunk, and it would have been costly, but it was most certainly doable, as I said long term consequences would not have been worth it (the possible scenario that you pointed to) and so it did not happen. But they could have done it and it would have been just as costly to anyone who tried to stop them as it would have been to GOD to try and do it. Disclaimer: Before anyone starts with the ZOMG hypocrite comments that I can see coming, I do not feel that AB deserved to be disbanded and I am glad that they weren't. Edited October 5, 2009 by KingSrqt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shan Revan Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) It was in the middle of that that Nemesis bailed. That's fine, they have their priorities and they should stick to them. Xiphosis's number one value, that he puts over everything else, is being a trustworhy ally and one that can be counted on in any situation and he's one of the few people I know who actually bases his allies on his ideals. Nemesis found a situation in which they could not find a way to support GOD. That's fine but it makes them incompatible allies and the testy was canceled. I don't terribly care about the situation at all to be honest but it seems to me that if Xiphosis's being set on avoiding the situation and forcing a disbandment merely to spite those who were annoying him hardly sounds supportive of his ally in Nemesis who apparently wanted a relatively clean end to things. EDIT: Run on sentence much? Too lazy to fix it though. Edited October 5, 2009 by Shan Revan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I don't terribly care about the situation at all to be honest but it seems to me that if Xiphosis's being set on avoiding the situation and forcing a disbandment merely to spite those who were annoying him hardly sounds supportive of his ally in Nemesis who apparently wanted a relatively clean end to things. Here's the thing, if you let Xiph is stubborn and he can be spiteful, but he is also reasonable if you have the patience to reason with him. If you do not have that patience then you should not be his ally. In the end AB got peace not because xiph was afraid of what would happen, but because he realized it was the best course of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryievla Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) They didn't hold treaties with them or else they would have. Okay. Little fuzzy on that particular front, though the impression I was getting from this thread was that MA was also on that front & disagreed etc. Basically all his allies disagreed with him into week 2 and week 3. Would you happen to which of them were also fighting AB? RIA members were gracious & fun during the war, and their leadership was very generous come our surrender time. I am having a hard time reconciling my experience with how they are being portrayed. Edited October 5, 2009 by Kryievla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Would you happen to know if they were also fighting AB? RIA members were gracious & fun during the war, and their leadership was very generous come our surrender time. I am having a hard time reconciling my experience with how they are being portrayed. That is because RIA and GOD are being portrayed in a very false manner. RIA stood beside GOD and helped to resolve everything in a way that would not end in the destruction of anyone. GOD got past what was an initial emotional urge and came to a reasonable resolution. Nemesis was seen as an ally that was not quite compatible and was canceled on. Now Blacky wants to stir up drama and bad PR because his alliance got it's treaties canceled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 As someone whose signature was on the RIA/Nemesis treaty I know that the main reason it was signed was the trust in the original tri of Nemesis No love for their original MoD? Nemesis was seen as an ally that was not quite compatible and was canceled on. Well, obviously not. $%&@ you then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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