Athens Announcement

[Keve69]

Athens is full of win! Congratz on dumping allies that weren't tigh-lipped!

[Smacky]

My trust in Athens has been shaken. Poor show.

Congratulations TSI for losing a worthless ally. Just more for us!

Edited August 31, 2009 by Smacky

[Jack Diorno]

Athens is full of win! Congratz on dumping allies that weren't tight-lipped!

We have a few empty spots where our allies once were, what are your lips like?

[Mathias]

In any event, I think it's pretty clear this treaty should have been dropped, regardless of who's right or wrong.

But let's argue about it more since Athens is clearly evil.

[kingzog]

I read the first six pages. Was any proof of TSI leaking information produced after that or have I just saved myself from exposure to the usual pointless back and forth interspersed with unfunny 'jokes'?

If the former, then I shall prepare myself to be both shocked and disappointed.

If the latter, I'm going to assume none exists.

You know, it may very well be that Athens believes that TSI leaked something. In my experience, though, that would be contrary to every dealing I have had with the good folks in TSI, especially Shurukian.

Allow me to put forth Option #3. Information was leaked, but not by TSI. Athens has made an honest mistake in hurling an accusation Shurukian's way.

Not that I suppose it matters much, since TSI was planning on pulling the plug on this anyway. At the end of the day nothing to see here, everyone go home, etc. etc. etc.

Edited August 31, 2009 by kingzog

[Bjornoya]

I read the first six pages. Was any proof of TSI leaking information produced after that or have I just saved myself from exposure to the usual pointless back and forth interspersed with unfunny 'jokes'?

If the former, then I shall prepare myself to be both shocked and disappointed.

If the latter, I'm going to assume none exists.

You know, it may very well be that Athens believes that TSI leaked something. In my experience, though, that would be contrary to every dealing I have had with the good folks in TSI, especially Shurukian.

Allow me to put forth Option #3. Information was leaked, but not by TSI. Athens has made an honest mistake in hurling an accusation Shurukian's way.

Not that I suppose it matters much, since TSI was planning on pulling the plug on this anyway. At the end of the day nothing to see here, everyone go home, etc. etc. etc.

No Zog, there has been no proof although Londo has said here he has logs of the conversations but has yet to post anything...

[mhawk]

hahahahahahahaha. amusing thread is amusing.

seriously, this is an amazing show of people beating their heads into brickwalls that i have seen. The sheer massiveness of it is startling.

we have on one side- Athens and their allies who believe Athens. On the other we have TSI and their allies who believe them. In the middle we have people who are leaning to one side or the other based on whom they like more for whatever reasons. Guess what, evidence is arbitrary. It ain't gonna affect much in the short or long run.

but just for !@#$ and giggles, mhawk, produce the log dumps where Mary told you whatever Londo said Shuru told you. I am sure Londo and Athens will confirm if what was said is true or not.

That is the funny thing. It isn't even classified info or even tangible intel that londo is mad about. Basically I was told londo was being a vengeful jerk in the negotiation process. Trying to go back and find logs from one of those conversations, not even sure if it was a call on skype or in one of a dozen various small rooms is quite hard. This is what I got so far.

01[21:13] <mhawk> I was trying to pull up the evidence of that

[21:13] <Mary_the_Fantabulous> #xxxxxxxx was the channel, I think

01[21:15] <mhawk> that wasn't it

[21:15] <Mary_the_Fantabulous> hmm

[21:15] <Mary_the_Fantabulous> Wasn't it on Skype?

01[21:22] <mhawk> yup

01[21:58] <mhawk> hey do you remember when we were talking about londo being a (more colorful words or jerk used)?

01[21:58] <mhawk> where was that?

[21:58] <Mary_the_Fantabulous> That was often

So the info that londo thinks Shuru leaked to me was that he wanted revenge for noCB terms! Well schucks, no one coulda figured that one out. Highly classified stuff? Is it that hard to believe that someone from NPO thought you were a jerk and told me that, or told me you wrote the terms?

That is what needs to be made clear, the info Athens is claiming was leaked to their enemies is not "we're going to attack alliance x" or "we're going to sign treaty Z" or " we're going to be doing Y". The info that they think was leaked was that londo didn't like NPO and wanted revenge for noCB reps Athens paid. How many people could have guessed or assumed that?

Edited August 31, 2009 by mhawk

[shahenshah]

Ball's in Athen's court.

Good Luck to all involved alliances.

[Desperado]

You have already proven once you are incompetent with what you think is evidence and your public explanations of it when you dump it. Perhaps it is best you decide to not dump this evidence, I bet it makes more sense if people just imagine what is there rather then if you actually showed what that evidence was.

Incompetent? pfft. It fits you more for what you think is credible when you try to dump to others. Good luck with your allies in Athens, and enjoy running in circles trying to look cool

Edited August 31, 2009 by Desperado

[mhawk]

After the Menotah incident, we went back and looked at what had happened and changed our minds about giving Shuru the benefit of the doubt - which appears to have been very much justified both by our own analysis and by TPF's little slip up in the thread here

The Menotah incident was insignificant

TPF's little slip up was admitting we are allied to TSI?

Edited August 31, 2009 by mhawk

[Locke]

TPF's little slip up was admitting we are allied to TSI?

Clearly a crime of the highest magnitude, something that shoud not be admitted in public.

[Hyperion321]

I'm seeing a lot of people bashing Athens for canceling a treaty. My question is this: How does this affect any of you at all?

Most of you are not allied to Athens, and I'm pretty sure you think that's a good thing, so what's the point of bad mouthing Athens? They didn't attack anybody, they didn't abuse anybody. All they did was cancel a damn treaty. How is canceling a treaty a bad thing? Athens has a point of view on an issue, and they acted on it in the best way that they could. Just because you wouldn't have canceled the treaty does not make you right, nor them wrong.

You'd think with this "Only the cool kids do their own sovereign thing" trend going around people would just shut the hell up and accept a damn treaty cancellation. But no, because it's Athens doing what they want to do they're dicks? You can't debate a treaty cancellation. It's not like Londo went to to TSI, canceled the treaty, then punched a baby in the face. There is literally nothing evil about it. Athens did what they wanted to, and it's over.

End of !@#$@#$ story.

Seriously people, find something more important to !@#$%* about.

[Bjornoya]

I'm seeing a lot of people bashing Athens for canceling a treaty. My question is this: How does this affect any of you at all?

Most of you are not allied to Athens, and I'm pretty sure you think that's a good thing, so what's the point of bad mouthing Athens? They didn't attack anybody, they didn't abuse anybody. All they did was cancel a damn treaty. How is canceling a treaty a bad thing? Athens has a point of view on an issue, and they acted on it in the best way that they could. Just because you wouldn't have canceled the treaty does not make you right, nor them wrong.

You'd think with this "Only the cool kids do their own sovereign thing" trend going around people would just shut the hell up and accept a damn treaty cancellation. But no, because it's Athens doing what they want to do they're dicks? You can't debate a treaty cancellation. It's not like Londo went to to TSI, canceled the treaty, then punched a baby in the face. There is literally nothing evil about it. Athens did what they wanted to, and it's over.

End of !@#$@#$ story.

Seriously people, find something more important to !@#$%* about.

Its not the treaty cancellation its the unfounded accusation against TSI of revealing classified intel. If the Athens government had simply stated they were cancelling the treaty no-one would have cared.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Kaiser Kevin

[Jack Diorno]

That is the funny thing. It isn't even classified info or even tangible intel that londo is mad about. Basically I was told londo was being a vengeful jerk in the negotiation process. Trying to go back and find logs from one of those conversations, not even sure if it was a call on skype or in one of a dozen various small rooms is quite hard. This is what I got so far.

01[21:13] <mhawk> I was trying to pull up the evidence of that

[21:13] <Mary_the_Fantabulous> #xxxxxxxx was the channel, I think

01[21:15] <mhawk> that wasn't it

[21:15] <Mary_the_Fantabulous> hmm

[21:15] <Mary_the_Fantabulous> Wasn't it on Skype?

01[21:22] <mhawk> yup

01[21:58] <mhawk> hey do you remember when we were talking about londo being a (more colorful words or jerk used)?

01[21:58] <mhawk> where was that?

[21:58] <Mary_the_Fantabulous> That was often

So the info that londo thinks Shuru leaked to me was that he wanted revenge for noCB terms! Well schucks, no one coulda figured that one out. Highly classified stuff? Is it that hard to believe that someone from NPO thought you were a jerk and told me that, or told me you wrote the terms?

That is what needs to be made clear, the info Athens is claiming was leaked to their enemies is not "we're going to attack alliance x" or "we're going to sign treaty Z" or " we're going to be doing Y". The info that they think was leaked was that londo didn't like NPO and wanted revenge for noCB reps Athens paid. How many people could have guessed or assumed that?

Londo did not want revenge for the NoCB war terms, a victorious war against NPO was more then we had ever hoped for and Londo was the driving force trying to bind karma together to ensure NPO got any terms.

This is what we are annoyed at though, the conversation between Londo and Shuru was nothing bad, Londo never indicated he wanted revenge, just how hard it was for Athens to retain members as they dropped away due to the lack of banks athens had at the time and the restriction of outside aid for our bill locked nations.

For an ally of Athens to then take that conversation out of context, and for you yourself to wrap your little mittens over it and use it as a catalyst for your "Londo is evil and is just as bad as us" campaign, its totally against what Athens believes a true ally to be.

EDIT: dance jack dance.

EDIT: cant take my eyes off him.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Jack Diorno

[Jerry Kellerman]

I'm seeing a lot of people bashing Athens for canceling a treaty. My question is this: How does this affect any of you at all?

Most of you are not allied to Athens, and I'm pretty sure you think that's a good thing, so what's the point of bad mouthing Athens? They didn't attack anybody, they didn't abuse anybody. All they did was cancel a damn treaty. How is canceling a treaty a bad thing? Athens has a point of view on an issue, and they acted on it in the best way that they could. Just because you wouldn't have canceled the treaty does not make you right, nor them wrong.

If Athens had only canceled the treaty and not made the accusation that TSI had shared intel, there would be little discussion to be had.

If Athens is correct in their accusation - I am still open to this possibility, but evidence needs to be provided - then at the very least if I was in their situation I would have canceled the treaty.

Even if Athens is incorrect in its assertion, being on the opposite sides of the Karma War is a sufficient catalyst for a treaty cancellation, and no further explanation was required on the part of Athens.

One possible reason why this affects other people is that relations have been established or possibly could be established in the future with Athens and/or TSI, and before one chooses an ally, one wants to ensure that they will not be lied about or have their intelligence shared with enemies.

[Jack Diorno]

If Athens had only canceled the treaty and not made the accusation that TSI had shared intel, there would be little discussion to be had.

If Athens is correct in their accusation - I am still open to this possibility, but evidence needs to be provided - then at the very least if I was in their situation I would have canceled the treaty.

Even if Athens is incorrect in its assertion, being on the opposite sides of the Karma War is a sufficient catalyst for a treaty cancellation, and no further explanation was required on the part of Athens.

One possible reason why this affects other people is that relations have been established or possibly could be established in the future with Athens and/or TSI, and before one chooses an ally, one wants to ensure that they will not be lied about or have their intelligence shared with enemies.

Londo talked to Shuru about the hardships of the NPO terms, Shuru talked to Mhawk and took the logs out of context, enabling mhawk to begin his tireless campaign against Londo and Athens.

Basically I was told londo was being a vengeful jerk in the negotiation process. Trying to go back and find logs from one of those conversations, not even sure if it was a call on skype or in one of a dozen various small rooms is quite hard. This is what I got so far.

[James Maximus]

Londo? Wanting revenge on NPO? This is clearly not true.

02:53 ~Londo • Moo treated Athens like crap

02:53 ~Londo • in the last war

02:53 @Jgoods[Athens|MoFA] • ^^

02:53 +leongsh • ^ this

02:53 ~Londo • the wheel turns.

02:53 ~Londo •

02:53 +Lightningdelta • Football? Lulz, sounds....fun

02:53 +Lightningdelta • I'm aiight

02:53 ~Londo • Can't wait to talk surrender with him

02:53 ~Londo • Give him terms

02:54 ~Londo • I'll get logs for you guys

02:54 ~Londo • :V

[Azaghul]

I talk to Londo pretty often and did so during that time, was more often than not on the side of easier terms, and more than anyone else made a huge effort to get all the various alliances to agree on a set of terms so that NPO could get peace.

And yet he's painted as the bad guy.

Sure he and nearly everyone else in C&G was happy to take down NPO after the crap they pulled on us, but Londo was hardly using terms as a means to get revenge.

[Jack Diorno]

I talk to Londo pretty often and did so during that time, was more often than not on the side of easier terms, and more than anyone else made a huge effort to get all the various alliances to agree on a set of terms so that NPO could get peace.

And yet he's painted as the bad guy.

Sure he and nearly everyone else in C&G was happy to take down NPO after the crap they pulled on us, but Londo was hardly using terms as a means to get revenge.

And you will have a hard time finding anyone from KARMA who says otherwise.

EDIT: FFFFFFFFF

Edited August 31, 2009 by Jack Diorno

[Adam Suttler]

What's interesting to me is that people are asking for proof, but the proof is in something not existing (conversations with the pertinent data), not so much that it was said to Empress in the first place. So are we looking for logs without information, or what's the real request here?

Anyways, obviously nothing of value was lost in dividing our alliances in this way; No one who wanted to be respectful of each other and watch each others' back would have such obvious bad blood flowing. It's especially hard through strings of friends and enemies that we find ourselves aligned with some quite different folks. It's typical, too, that Athens' friends trust her and that TSI's will trust her: the way of the world. Only time will tell who proves to be the better ally.

Until that day, o/ Eliminating Outdated Treaties!

If there's no proof, then what did you base your conclusion that TSI received any information, and that we dispensed it to your enemies? It just doesn't make sense unless you can back up your actions with something.

If you can't back your actions up with anything, then this thread is simply nothing more than a flame thread against TSI in general, as flames are generally baseless and rude in nature. If no evidence is provided, it can be assumed that the OP is nothing more than a cancellation with KoC, and a direct flame against TSI.

Also, the second part of your argument is not entirely true. There was no bad blood towards Athens until this point; we simply wanted a treaty cancellation simply because neither of us benefited from the agreement due to the lack of any communication, although I can't speak for Athens regarding their reasoning. Just clearing that up.

[FreddieMercury]

Hey Athens, if you wanna slander one of my allies, try, I dunno, putting some evidence out there. Tends to work better, instead of not so successfully trying to change the focus of the debate.

[mhawk]

Londo talked to Shuru about the hardships of the NPO terms, Shuru talked to Mhawk and took the logs out of context, enabling mhawk to begin his tireless campaign against Londo and Athens.

Except the quoted part was with mary, not shuru.

[D34th]

I love to see history being rewriten in front of my eyes...

[Adam Suttler]

It does mean, however, that our alliances have different priorities, and that is a big reason for this cancellation.

So, instead of mentioning this as the prime reason in your OP, you fabricate a completely different and baseless conclusion for your reasoning, to make you look as if you're the victim, when in fact, neither party was really too involved with the other.

[Matthew Conrad]

Its not the treaty cancellation its the unfounded accusation against TSI of revealing classified intel. If the Athens government had simply stated they were cancelling the treaty no-one would have cared.

Which they said was based on circumstantial evidence and clearly stated this was the conclusion they came to given what they had, which means it was indeed built upon something. They're not trying to push this down anyone's throat and are stating their own judgment, something they're entirely allowed to have.