NPO History Discussion

[King DrunkWino]

A mistake which I made at the beginning. This isn't really an OOC forum by any means then its desired purpose which went unheard.

I don't take it as an OOC forum, there is no reason to because it is not a OOC forum.

You might wanna check the description.

Open World RP

The hub of happenings in the alliance-driven political scene of the Cyber Nations World. Remember that all posts here are Out of Character.

Subforums: Alliance Announcements (IC), World Affairs (IC)

Forum Led by: Global Moderator, Role Play Moderator

This place is supposed to be just as OOC as The Suggestion Box, The Water Cooler, McDonalds, and so on while the sub's are the IC places. Least, that's how I read it.

[Ivan Moldavi]

A mistake which I made at the beginning. This isn't really an OOC forum by any means then its desired purpose which went unheard.

I don't take it as an OOC forum, there is no reason to because it is not a OOC forum.

Well, if you say so.

Will?

"Super-alliance" as a precondition to start your spying for political gain sounds a bit hallow, of course alliances of your size and ambitions have all the reasons to spy for political gain as any other "super-alliance".

Now, if the prior posts of yours are completely true, you cant really dump into NPO's lap damaging bomb shell that in the past it spied under you, and not get that poorly reflected onto you or your current alliance. Provisional terms like "super-alliance"aside, as they are irrelevant.

Considering that the subforums are labelled IC specifically and this forum includes stat threads and other non-IC topics it seems reasonable to consider this forum OOC, as I will continue to do.

As far as the rest, I have absolutely no concerns over my supposed reflection in the Cyberverse. I carry the signature of the Duke of Lauenburg in several places for a reason. Those that once held me in some high regard have suffered under years of revisionism that has either completely changed the realities of the past or concentrated only upon my failings, of which there are admittedly not few.

I will spy as I see fit, it is the getting caught that I hope to avoid.

[WalkerNinja]

-snip-

I know that the presence of NPO spies was assumed in the ODN since after the Citrus War. Labyrinthine countermeasures were designed to combat their presence. ODN too had their spies (prior to and during GWIII), evidence of which was uncovered in the infamous ODN forum hack which preceded our entry to the UnjustWar. Other notable players that came from the "other game" admitted to importing spying techniques in the private diplomatic forums that the ODN held with several other alliances.

Spying happens, and you have to take draconian measures to stop it. Like restricting membership heavily. I daresay that OBR and DAWN don't have spy issues. Traitors, perhaps, but not spies.

Spying as a CB really amounts to "you did something that we didn't like, and now you're going to pay for it." This, after all, is the first CB. Making spying something more than this is merely spin.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I know that the presence of NPO spies was assumed in the ODN since after the Citrus War. Labyrinthine countermeasures were designed to combat their presence. ODN too had their spies (prior to and during GWIII), evidence of which was uncovered in the infamous ODN forum hack which preceded our entry to the UnjustWar. Other notable players that came from the "other game" admitted to importing spying techniques in the private diplomatic forums that the ODN held with several other alliances.

Spying happens, and you have to take draconian measures to stop it. Like restricting membership heavily. I daresay that OBR and DAWN don't have spy issues. Traitors, perhaps, but not spies.

Spying as a CB really amounts to "you did something that we didn't like, and now you're going to pay for it." This, after all, is the first CB. Making spying something more than this is merely spin.

I agree with the first part of your post but disagree with your conclusion.

Espionage is a natural part of any political simulation. It can be done well and it can be done poorly. I believe those that do it poorly and are caught should be sufficiently punished so that they learn to do it well. The casus belli isn't the spying itself, it is the getting caught.

[Doitzel]

I can't comment on recent NPO history but historically (at least when I was there) we did spy. We had whole forums set up for it, with operatives pretty much everywhere of "importance". I believe much of that is common knowledge these days, right?

It was common knowledge in the old days, too. There were just a lot less disaffected old coots to confirm it. The only ones who bother denying anymore are the ones who still own telescreens.

[TehChron]

Will?

"Super-alliance" as a precondition to start your spying for political gain sounds a bit hallow, of course alliances of your size and ambitions have all the reasons to spy for political gain as any other "super-alliance".

Now, if the prior posts of yours are completely true, you cant really dump into NPO's lap damaging bomb shell that in the past it spied under you, and not get that poorly reflected onto you or your current alliance. Provisional terms like "super-alliance"aside, as they are irrelevant.

Im looking forward to the spai business when we get to it.

Super-alliance isnt so much a precondition, moreover, as it is Ivan acknowledging the fact that for us, spying is relatively pointless due to our low power base. Once we are a super-alliance, then sure, spying is worth the effort, but certainly not now, when we wouldn't be able to actually do anything with intel we gather.

However, if you want to turn this into a chance to sling mud at someone that actually wont be phased over your insults, then go for it.

Edit:

It was common knowledge in the old days, too. There were just a lot less disaffected old coots to confirm it. The only ones who bother denying anymore are the ones who still own telescreens.

It's funny, actually, there were originally some subforums that (I think it was either Pump or vlad or someone?) set up on the original forums for espionage, and either they got deleted once I was masked to be able to see it, or my mask was altered.

Either way, we did spy, I just didn't care enough to really dwell on it too much.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Chron

[John Michaels]

I know that the presence of NPO spies was assumed in the ODN since after the Citrus War. Labyrinthine countermeasures were designed to combat their presence. ODN too had their spies (prior to and during GWIII), evidence of which was uncovered in the infamous ODN forum hack which preceded our entry to the UnjustWar. Other notable players that came from the "other game" admitted to importing spying techniques in the private diplomatic forums that the ODN held with several other alliances.

Spying happens, and you have to take draconian measures to stop it. Like restricting membership heavily. I daresay that OBR and DAWN don't have spy issues. Traitors, perhaps, but not spies.

Spying as a CB really amounts to "you did something that we didn't like, and now you're going to pay for it." This, after all, is the first CB. Making spying something more than this is merely spin.

In my experience espionage is rarely in and of itself the cause for a war. If you look at all the major conflicts in Planet Bob, you'll begin to realize that the groundwork for all major wars is laid months in advance, that the Casus Belli is always little more than an excuse for a war. Spying is merely one of many "acceptable causes" for starting such a war. Really the main reason such wars don't occur more frequently is because it takes some time for a side to find the right reason to choose to go to war.

[WalkerNinja]

Espionage is a natural part of any political simulation. It can be done well and it can be done poorly. I believe those that do it poorly and are caught should be sufficiently punished so that they learn to do it well. The casus belli isn't the spying itself, it is the getting caught.

It's a rather derivative point that you're trying to make there.

[Näktergal]

Oh no, do not misunderstand me. I think anyone caught spying should be punished severely and swiftly.

Oh, I agree. If anything, it's like how, in a number of wars throughout history, there was a policy in place that any combatant found out of uniform could be hung without trial or need to treat them with the due process all soldiers were entitled to by the rules of conduct, to discourage soldiers from disguising themselves as civilians. Which is not to say that both sides didn't do it, of course. Or that any side which chose to field guerrilla operatives would refrain from punishing guerrilla operatives from the other side if they caught them. To condone spying done by your own alliance in your own defense/as a means of advancement is not the same as saying you'll go easy on any enemy spies you catch.

In CN, there are any number of practices that are generally decried as being "bad" (like spying, false flagging, etc), which people nevertheless do because they're effective. Which is also part of the reason why the IC/OOC line has blurred to the point of non-existence by this point. People will do a great many "immoral" things if they think it will give them an advantage, and they don't believe they'll be caught.

[Branimir]

You might wanna check the description.

Oh, wow, yeah.

Obviously enough I know what this forum should be, but I also read this forum and know what it is.

Dont bother me with its mods made description as a proof it is OOC, that is irrelevant to its real context.

You can though say you take it as OOC, so I will take your posts as such.

As far as the rest, I have absolutely no concerns over my supposed reflection in the Cyberverse.

You know I can not really take that as complete truth. A capable political leader and a protagonist as you are, of course takes interest in how the ripples he makes in the political continuum reflects.

Those that once held me in some high regard have suffered under years of revisionism that has either completely changed the realities of the past or concentrated only upon my failings, of which there are admittedly not few.

Is this how you think things went down in NPO with you. I mean, I do not know what your relations are with the NPO leadership, but I can tell you that you are highly regarded in the membership structure, there never were any slanderous revisionist attempts at changing that from any corner of Pacifica, and you should drop this emo like act about your picture being tainted by the evils that be.

That is not always true, what makes it that way is your standing within NPO. But of course, in your disregard to us now and dropping all kinds of damaging bombs, you can always undo that.

I will spy as I see fit, it is the getting caught that I hope to avoid.

Of course you will. That was my point, thanks for proving it.

[TehChron]

It's a rather derivative point that you're trying to make there.

Naktergal does a very good job explaining it.

Edit:

Of course you will. That was my point, thanks for proving it.

Well, good for you then. Edited August 25, 2009 by Chron

[Ivan Moldavi]

It's a rather derivative point that you're trying to make there.

It allows me to sidestep when necessary.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Ivan Moldavi

[Branimir]

Super-alliance isnt so much a precondition, moreover, as it is Ivan acknowledging the fact that for us, spying is relatively pointless due to our low power base. Once we are a super-alliance, then sure, spying is worth the effort, but certainly not now, when we wouldn't be able to actually do anything with intel we gather.

That of course, is nonsense.

However, if you want to turn this into a chance to sling mud at someone that actually wont be phased over your insults, then go for it.

That of course, is wrong characterization of my actions. I know Ivan, I know he isn't even remotely bothered with my comments.

If you want to turn this into my evil attempt to sling mud at Ivan, you are doing a poor job.

I am not slinging anything then what he has admitted to and see as no mud to begin with. I hold Ivan in high regard.

[Ivan Moldavi]

That is not always true, what makes it that way is your standing within NPO. But of course, in your disregard to us now and dropping all kinds of damaging bombs, you can always undo that.

I am not wholly sure I understand the point you are hoping to get at here. Considering that when I did come back and attempted to speak with the membership in NPO I was attacked as being "unpatriotic" because I didn't immediately join back up to the rank and file of the IOs (where I am not welcome regardless) to the fact that I am more or less banned on the forum now, I can hardly be considered to see myself as "beloved" by the general NPO membership, regardless of how you wish to label my disgust at such a circumstance.

The fact that I have to be invited to take part in the August Revolution celebration and must respond so that special masking accommodations can be made for me to even be able to see the forum, which presumably will be open to all members and conceivably should be open to a former Emperor, speaks volumes on my standing in the NPO, at least to me.

My statement that the NPO spied 3 years ago is hardly a bombshell to the Cyberverse at large.

[Doitzel]

Oh, I agree. If anything, it's like how, in a number of wars throughout history, there was a policy in place that any combatant found out of uniform could be hung without trial or need to treat them with the due process all soldiers were entitled to by the rules of conduct, to discourage soldiers from disguising themselves as civilians. Which is not to say that both sides didn't do it, of course. Or that any side which chose to field guerrilla operatives would refrain from punishing guerrilla operatives from the other side if they caught them. To condone spying done by your own alliance in your own defense/as a means of advancement is not the same as saying you'll go easy on any enemy spies you catch.

In CN, there are any number of practices that are generally decried as being "bad" (like spying, false flagging, etc), which people nevertheless do because they're effective. Which is also part of the reason why the IC/OOC line has blurred to the point of non-existence by this point. People will do a great many "immoral" things if they think it will give them an advantage, and they don't believe they'll be caught.

Well, therein lies the problem. Fortunately a lot of the people capable of successfully pulling off clever "immoral" tactics are sporting enough to keep it within the game's limits. Difficulties arise from the fact that the main demographic of this game is much more impetuous and hot-headed and will resort to any means to achieve their ends.

Anyway, very well-articulated as always. Spying is just another part of warfare. In conventional wars you try to minimise the damage to yourself and maximise the damage to your enemies. I don't see why espionage should be any different.

[King DrunkWino]

Obviously enough I know what this forum should be, but I also read this forum and know what it is.

Dont bother me with its mods made description as a proof it is OOC, that is irrelevant to its real context.

You can though say you take it as OOC, so I will take your posts as such.

Hey, don't blame me that there's a good number of players that don't totally get the IC/OOC distinction. That would be a whole other 50+ page topic. I'm not even that great at it for the most part if I'm being honest about it. The mods did, however, set it up to be an OOC area regardless if players can distinguish between the two.

I take this place as 100% players not in character casually discussing what's going on in the game. I do appreciate it if you take any of my posting here as such.

Edited August 25, 2009 by King DrunkWino

[Feanor Noldorin]

Are you really trying to claim that TOP would be where it is today without the NPO? TOP was an insignificant alliance before WUT. What would you have done? Sided with the League, or stayed neutral? Okay, you made a good show against GATO during GWII, but face it, that didn't mean much. You didn't bring any allies to the table. So you were a decent sized alliance during the UjW, but you did nothing there. Frankly you didn't become that relevant until after that war, when you grew a good lot due to the ex-GOONS joining up with you. But yeah, I mean, come on, you wouldn't have made it through those early stages without NPO. Well, maybe, but you wouldn't have been in the position to be where you are today. NPO made you.

As for Crymson, so what? We all hated him anyway. There was celebration after he left you know? Especially amongst the government of the time.

If you want me to I can ask Unspeakable_Evil to look through his data to show you that from GW3 onwards we have done nothing but have steady growth. There was no single moment in which we shot through the roof in terms of strength, it was all a steady progression of growth. We have had large nations apply to us throughout our time but the reason for their application was almost always to be apart of our community rather than them totally agreeing with our IC politics. Your ex-GOONS comment is quite hilarious seeing as how we only have a handful of them. Still, I am not going to deny that the NPO helped us when we were of much smaller size. However, to say that you built our nations up or some other nonsense is just insane because that never happened.

"NPO made you."

While I realize that you are no longer in the NPO it is this kind of attitude that lost them their allies and friends. The idea that you expect everyone to show you the courtesy of proper notification and discussion when it came to signing treaties and declaring war while they never bothered to return the favor. When you are in a partnership you are equals and when you try and act above the principals that you have all agreed upon then you start having problems. Which is exactly what happened.

[WalkerNinja]

It allows me to sidestep when necessary.

I see your point.

Branimir, those that embrace revisionist history seldom believe that it has been revised. If they did, it would rather defeat the point.

Talk to virtually anyone that forwards a Thomas Jefferson quote to you, and you'll see what I mean.

[Branimir]

I am not wholly sure I understand the point you are hoping to get at here. Considering that when I did come back and attempted to speak with the membership in NPO I was attacked as being "unpatriotic" because I didn't immediately join back up to the rank and file of the IOs (where I am not welcome regardless) to the fact that I am more or less banned on the forum now, I can hardly be considered to see myself as "beloved" by the general NPO membership, regardless of how you wish to label my disgust at such a circumstance.

The fact that I have to be invited to take part in the August Revolution celebration and must respond so that special masking accommodations can be made for me to even be able to see the forum, which presumably will be open to all members and conceivably should be open to a former Emperor, speaks volumes on my standing in the NPO, at least to me.

My statement that the NPO spied 3 years ago is hardly a bombshell to the Cyberverse at large.

"Unpatriotic"? NPO membership called you that? Dont really think so.

My statement reigns truthful. You are considered a great man of our history by our membership, your current relationship with our NPO leadership aside.

For your status on our board, you hold a foreign diplomat mask and are hardly banned.

If you would like a regular member mask, and are hurt that you do not hold one, I don't understand you.

You are now a leader of an alliance foreign to us, with which we hold no ties, in a block foreign to us, with which we hold no ties.

That is today, and while your history is fondly remembered and celebrated by NPO membership, realities of today is you are a part of a foreign force to us now.

And about your comment, it was symptomatic about your lack of care for NPO. Obviously enough, you don't care much any longer and I find it to be lack of class (forgive me, but its how it comes out to me) to use your great knowledge about private affairs of your previous home in a way you did, 3 years or not, it reflects all the way to today and it was used to destroy a comment considering current history NPO affairs. That is not cool, but I know you don't care.

[Feanor Noldorin]

You saw the first opportunity to take down the allies that got you into a position you could be even be noteworthy to begin with, and are the only reason you have the number one spot you possess now. Your infra was bought with Pacifican blood, so dress it up however you like, most of us already know that most of the IO's these days lack the cajones or ignorance of diplomacy to call you out for what you were and are; Opportunists.

The NPO's leadership was well aware of the consequences should they declare war on OV. They knew it would spark a massive war and they knew how it would effect our relations. Perhaps they thought that by jump starting the war that they could sideline TOP and the Citadel. It was painfully obvious that the Citadel would be on the other side and I made it crystal clear that if you made us choose between the two that you would be sorely disappointed.

As far as the #1 ranking goes the NPO may have been the statistical #1 alliance in the game prior to the war but they were not the strongest. On a purely alliance-to-alliance basis IRON and TOP had much more high end nations.

In hindsight not even treaty obligations could guarantee folks to come in on their side. awesome.gif

It's funny how people don't react in a positive manner when you try to trick them.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Feanor Noldorin

[Branimir]

It was painfully obvious that the Citadel would be on the other side and I made it crystal clear that if you made us choose between the two that you would be sorely disappointed.

And it was painfully obvious you would fallow them, to anybody really no warning needed. Let just drop this, because it is ridiculous.

In so many of your words, NPO TOP relations were dropping for some time. At the same time, they were becoming stronger then ever in regards to Citadel and its sphere. It was clear that Citadel under the strong advocation of Gre from within, will in any scenario side against NPO's side in a war.

Gre were better friends to you then us at that point and you would have never acted against them, and they would have never sit on the sidelines, so the math is there. You dropped us the second a posibility of that occurred from our actions and its over now.

You picked your side and while you want to imply how we "forced" you to, you picked the side on your own accords some time before all this went down. I believe there were talks to go out of Q, in a Gre like manner, much before OV events. The distance were there between us, distance that made the choice long ago.

Its over now and shall remain as such. You do your collecting and good luck with it, because there are those that would challange you. Focus on that, don't waste strength arguing about NPO.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Branimir

[Steelrat]

Ahhh, yes Gremlins brainwashing machine unchallenged in convincing TOP that NPO is evil, well as much as i would like to claim that, i guess NPO brought that upon themselves. And hands down your reply and several others revealed a lot about how NPO is conducting business, the word tools or meat shield comes to my mind, not honesty and friendship or hell forbids an open and honest discussion.

Does it ever came to your mind that you alienated TOP and others because of how you act, how you treat others?

[Branimir]

Ahhh, yes Gremlins brainwashing machine unchallenged in convincing TOP that NPO is evil, well as much as i would like to claim that, i guess NPO brought that upon themselves. And hands down your reply and several others revealed a lot about how NPO is conducting business, the word tools or meat shield comes to my mind, not honesty and friendship or hell forbids an open and honest discussion.

Does it ever came to your mind that you alienated TOP and others because of how you act, how you treat others?

Ahhh yes, utter rubbish.

I didn't mentioned, or even reasonably implied any kind of Gre brain wash against NPO.

I did said that TOP came to their picking of side on their own accords, in just above post then yours.

I don't know how from my posts one rational intelligent reasonable human being can conclude how NPO views allies as tools.

This putting of word in my mouth is really quite ridiculous. All you have really, I rarely see a quality post from you.

After putting words in my mouth, then "baaaaawwwww evil NPO evil bawwwww".

You know, after saying how you didn't brainwash anybody, meaning sell them your propaganda, you did took a turn for a propaganda mindless post quickly.

Yeah, poor TOP being stuck with us which we so heavily abused. Let us forget all the help NPO members gave TOP to even form as an alliance, what benefits that alliance received to grow with the treaty with us. Yes, it totally backfired to them, they are now a shamble alliance.

As I said already, distance formed between us. Yes it was due to the state of our relations and yes that means the result of various actions. It didn't worked out in the end between us. I can not agree with your characterization that it was due to us taking TOP as a tool, but hey I don't really care what you think.

All that currently really matters is that it is over and shall remain as such. I shall not discuss TOP any further, they are not in the crux of my interests or even anywhere in there as I have these reps to pay and surrender terms to survive. They will most probably stay out of my interest after those as well. And my advice to TOP would be to stop wasting time on NPO debates and push that collect button more fiercely as there be some ill willed people towards them. NPO is completely irrelevant for their interest now. Actually I would dispense that advise to Gre as well. That is all, Rat, from my part. I cant get bothered further about this.

[Penkala]

Oh so witty, JM. But to quote myself:

I'm fairly certain OV didn't plant a member in NPO, they accepted information from an informant.

[Ivan Moldavi]

"Unpatriotic"? NPO membership called you that? Dont really think so.

My statement reigns truthful. You are considered a great man of our history by our membership, your current relationship with our NPO leadership aside.

For your status on our board, you hold a foreign diplomat mask and are hardly banned.

If you would like a regular member mask, and are hurt that you do not hold one, I don't understand you.

You are now a leader of an alliance foreign to us, with which we hold no ties, in a block foreign to us, with which we hold no ties.

That is today, and while your history is fondly remembered and celebrated by NPO membership, realities of today is you are a part of a foreign force to us now.

And about your comment, it was symptomatic about your lack of care for NPO. Obviously enough, you don't care much any longer and I find it to be lack of class (forgive me, but its how it comes out to me) to use your great knowledge about private affairs of your previous home in a way you did, 3 years or not, it reflects all the way to today and it was used to destroy a comment considering current history NPO affairs. That is not cool, but I know you don't care.

Let's just say that if the duel membership rights that were traditional afforded former Emperors was to be officially changed it would have been nice to get the memo beforehand.

For the rest, if you honestly think my commenting on what is by almost every standard a non issue and a known quantity from three years ago illustrates a lack of class or concern for the Body Republic then you really have no idea. Every alliance has skeletons, if I wanted to be such as you suggest I would fill graveyards.

The truth is, as any whom have seen my private comments in various places can attest, I hold the Body Republic community of the NPO in the highest regard and would never make such comments in an effort to harm them. I apologize if you believe otherwise, but I don't see spying three years ago as clear intent to harm.

Of course, as you alluded to, I can't say the same for some of the leadership, and that feeling is mutual.

EDIT: You mention no ties between NSO and Frostbite with NPO. It could have occurred to someone at some time that alienating the best, closest and most obvious tie that might have existed isn't the best course of action if relations were actually wish for.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Ivan Moldavi