Recognition of war

[Kung Fu Geeks]

Again, i wish somebody would tell me how saying "bring it" or "hey dont forget about me" nullifies any consequences of the actions by the person who brought it.

[Darth Revan]

If it was a joke thread it would have remained closed. It was reopened wasn't it?

How about we stop talking about moderation issues in this thread.

[Penkala]

If it was a joke thread it would have remained closed. It was reopened wasn't it?

Yes they clearly declared war on every person (ooc) posting on the owf (ooc) which is why we saw RAD's offensive war slots filled immediately right?

[HeinousOne]

Yes they clearly declared war on every person (ooc) posting on the owf (ooc) which is why we saw RAD's offensive war slots filled immediately right?

They stated they would do such at their leisure. I guess that means anyone attacked by them has to allow them to do that because they made their official announcement in what they call a joking manner?

[Penkala]

They stated they would do such at their leisure. I guess that means anyone attacked by them has to allow them to do that because they made their official announcement in what they call a joking manner?

The Sith also said they'd declare on any alliance at their leisure I guess that means they really DoWd on everyone and started this whole mess, right? Let's be serious here RAD didn't start this with that (ooc)thread(ooc) this started with the attack on the NSO member which NSO asked for. So trying to point to that (ooc) thread(ooc) and say "look they clearly threw the first punch and did a full blown DoW on NSO it wasn't just one member declaring a random war it was part of a DoW" just isn't going to fly.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Penkala

[Kung Fu Geeks]

Yes they clearly declared war on every person (ooc) posting on the owf (ooc) which is why we saw RAD's offensive war slots filled immediately right?

Yet notice that NSO didnt recognize hostilities until a RAD nation actually sent troops in and caused damage to an NSO nation.

Im sure that if RAD had gone and physically attacked nation upon nation upon nation there would be alot more than NSO engaging with them.

[Master Hakai]

They stated they would do such at their leisure. I guess that means anyone attacked by them has to allow them to do that because they made their official announcement in what they call a joking manner?

They are allowed to declare war on us, we all but set ourselves up for it. But that doesn't change the fact that it is odd and a little silly. I don't think there's any getting around that.

[HeinousOne]

The Sith also said they'd declare on any alliance at their leisure I guess that means they really DoWd on everyone and started this whole mess, right?

But they didn't actually declare any wars. They simply said they reserve the right to defend anyone they wish. RAD did attack someone and they didnt attack in defense of anyone else. Your reasoning for trying to blur that well accepted line?

[RandomInterrupt]

Heinous, you're really trying too hard today. If you want to look at anyone for creating a war out of nothing, look at RAD and NSO. And if you find this escalation all too much, you can talk to your allies who can still end this farce.

One day, one sweet day, you'll break out of your cage and realize just how horrible the precedence of the past years is. The NSO's allies will be doing nothing to stop this. Why? Because we are not in the business of telling out allies what they can and can't do. If someone wants to attack the NSO, and if the NSO wants to defend their nation, we are not going to tell them no. On behalf of one member of Frostbite I can say that it is our hope this remains 1vs1, and both NSO and RAD seem to wish for it to remain so as well. But no, we will not be telling them to stop their war because that is not what alliance sovereignty means.

The day one member of Frostbite tells another to end a perfectly justified war is the day that it falls apart for we will have recreated One Vision, and that is no where any of us want to go.

[HeinousOne]

They are allowed to declare war on us, we all but set ourselves up for it. But that doesn't change the fact that it is odd and a little silly. I don't think there's any getting around that.

I would also say that swarming NSO's irc spamming it into oblivion is odd and silly too. Not to mention all the lolbrown spiteful statements made from the direction of pink.

Perhaps you guys will learn a lesson. That lesson being that actions can have consequences and you must guage such so that you don't put yourself into a situation like this in the future.

You kept poking the gorilla again and again and you wonder why the gorilla strikes at you when you allow yourself close enough for it to do such?

[Penkala]

Yet notice that NSO didnt recognize hostilities until a RAD nation actually sent troops in and caused damage to an NSO nation.

Im sure that if RAD had gone and physically attacked nation upon nation upon nation there would be alot more than NSO engaging with them.

I do indeed recognize that RAD started this but it wasn't an actual RAD declaration of war on NSO, it was an isolated incident because Jason was stupid. I see people trying to claim it WASN'T an isolated attack on NSO and instead was a full blown alliance war, so NSO didn't really escalate anything. It's pretty damn obvious it was a one-person action that NSO decided to escalate into an alliance war. They need to just face that. Was it right to escalate it? That's debatable. I don't think so, personally. Others do think so. But make no mistake NSO *did* escalate this.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Penkala

[HeinousOne]

I do indeed recognize that RAD started this but it wasn't an actual RAD declaration of war on NSO, it was an isolated incident because Jason was stupid. I see people trying to claim it WASN'T an isolated attack on NSO and instead was a full blown alliance war, so NSO didn't really escalate anything. It's pretty damn obvious it was a one-person action that NSO decided to escalate into an alliance war. They need to just face that. Was it right to escalate it? That's debatable. I don't think so, personally. Others do think so. But make no mistake NSO *did* escalate this.

So its common acceptance that an alliance can defend its members from external attacks with the exception of NSO correct?

[Haflinger]

Just because they were willing to take the responsibility does not mean your reaction was correct. What does not make sense is why you would ask to be attacked if you did not really want to be attacked, your member should have taken responsibility for his trash talking.

Perhaps he did really want to be attacked. Actually based on this thread, I'd lay good odds he did.

His personal desires however don't really have anything to do with the duty of his alliance to defend him when he is, in fact, attacked.

Honestly I have no idea what your talking about, however I'll be the first to admit I may have missed something :x

Exhibit A.

It's on their wiki

Which is, of course, useless and out-of-date, not to be trusted under any circumstances?

[Penkala]

So its common acceptance that an alliance can defend its members from external attacks with the exception of NSO correct?

Of course they can. But should they attack all of RAD rather than just Jason? Ivan thinks so. I disagree with him.

[Chimaera]

So its common acceptance that an alliance can defend its members from external attacks with the exception of NSO correct?

No, but it's also not common for entire alliances to get attacked because one nation attacked another nation who requested to be attacked. To dismiss one action because of a lack of commonality should be to dismiss them both.

[Newhotness]

hha im gone for 3 days and this happens. hell yeah

[Aeternos Astramora]

You misunderstand him.

It is his argument that Citadel posters have been trying to inflame the situation and convince RAD and NSO allies to take part in the war.

Then you're reading a different thread. The most I've seen is questions asking what their stances are, not wishing and telling them to defend.

Not MADP treaties. Given that this war started with an attack from RAD on NSO, it would require Citadel to use optional aggression clauses to join in, and I'd think that would be a very hard sell to Citadel membership.

RAD doesn't have MADP's. RoK might, but that's not as important as RAD not having it.

[HeinousOne]

Of course they can. But should they attack all of RAD rather than just Jason? Ivan thinks so. I disagree with him.

Fair enough.

The reality of the situation though is that a RAD nation attacked an NSO nation and that was broadcasted in a thread which was a RAD Declaration of War statement.

RAD is getting their nose bloodied for being a pain in the $@! to NSO for a few weeks now. This has been building up for weeks. I just wish Internet Superheroes joined in on the RAD declaration from the beginning so that this brewing fight would have been complete.

[Merrie Melodies]

FFS, its a techrad, something my brothers in \m/ RAD should understand!

[Il Impero Romano]

One day, one sweet day, you'll break out of your cage and realize just how horrible the precedence of the past years is. The NSO's allies will be doing nothing to stop this. Why? Because we are not in the business of telling out allies what they can and can't do. If someone wants to attack the NSO, and if the NSO wants to defend their nation, we are not going to tell them no. On behalf of one member of Frostbite I can say that it is our hope this remains 1vs1, and both NSO and RAD seem to wish for it to remain so as well. But no, we will not be telling them to stop their war because that is not what alliance sovereignty means.

The day one member of Frostbite tells another to end a perfectly justified war is the day that it falls apart for we will have recreated One Vision, and that is no where any of us want to go.

This I statement I can truly respect (no comment on the part about the cage or whatever though:x)... yet I cant help but think some of the support thrown towards the way NSO handled this situation is more out of backing an ally then actual belief in their cause. Earlier, Ivan made a comment to a TLC member, who obviously was not looking on his reasoning here with much favor, that he was a "credit to his alliance"; but if your bloc is reasonable enough to respect each members decisions, should it not be so that the leaders of Frostbite respect the individual opinions of each alliances members, and blind support is not a must?

Edited August 15, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[Haflinger]

No, but it's also not common for entire alliances to get attacked because one nation attacked another nation who requested to be attacked. To dismiss one action because of a lack of commonality should be to dismiss them both.

It's actually pretty common for alliances to get attacked with even less reason than this.

With that said, I don't think I would've gone for NSO's response in this case. However it is nicely refreshing to see a war start because of, well, one nation launching attacks, rather than the usual nonsense like failing to demask people fast enough or being rude on IRC.

[HeinousOne]

No, but it's also not common for entire alliances to get attacked because one nation attacked another nation who requested to be attacked. To dismiss one action because of a lack of commonality should be to dismiss them both.

You are obviously not privy to the amount of harassment RAD and pink friends have pressed upon NSO. Sorry, they asked for this and no amount of lawyering is going to change that. I understand you are not privy to all that has happened leading up to this fight but trust me, the pink folks really wanted this too accept they wanted more pink in on the action then just RAD. Bad planning on their part is not NSO's problem.

[Delta1212]

Which is, of course, useless and out-of-date, not to be trusted under any circumstances?

Hence the

In all serious though, it's a useful reference for finding things if you don't know where else to look initially, but I wouldn't trust anything on the wiki without verifying it elsewhere first.

[Penkala]

Fair enough.

The reality of the situation though is that a RAD nation attacked an NSO nation and that was broadcasted in a thread which was a RAD Declaration of War statement.

RAD is getting their nose bloodied for being a pain in the $@! to NSO for a few weeks now. This has been building up for weeks. I just wish Internet Superheroes joined in on the RAD declaration from the beginning so that this brewing fight would have been complete.

It's been pretty mutual to be honest. NSO stated earlier that nobody would care if they 'rolled IS/PC/RAD'. That really increased tensions.

[astronaut jones]

Yet notice that NSO didnt recognize hostilities until a RAD nation actually sent troops in and caused damage to an NSO nation.

Im sure that if RAD had gone and physically attacked nation upon nation upon nation there would be alot more than NSO engaging with them.

I think it's rather pointless to try to argue with people on this. Penkala is clearly on RAD's side, no matter what, no matter the facts of the matter, no matter how great a lapse in judgement RAD had, no matter how much at fault they are (80% at the very least), he's going to side with them. He likes them, and people like that aren't going to be able to put aside their obvious biases and just look at things objectively.

NSO may have baited RAD, but they also gave them more than a few opportunities to NOT take the bait. RAD still took it, figuring they could play around with an alliance that just doesn't play around to begin with, and they got burned for it.

All this is, is a serious lapse in judgement on RAD's part. RAD may have been joking with their DOW thread, but guess what? ALL their announcements look and sound like that, so it's hard to tell when they're actually serious and actually joking. If they were joking, why did they take the bait offered by NSO, who clearly don't joke around, and who clearly thought RAD wasn't joking?

RAD was stupid. That's all. Sometimes stupidity has consequences attached to it.