At Long Last, the End of the Karma War

[Haflinger]

In that case, I cannot comment because I'm not a member.

I can comment because I'm a diplomat who's suddenly getting feedback from the Body Republic.

This is very new to me.

[Sal Paradise]

I can comment because I'm a diplomat who's suddenly getting feedback from the Body Republic.

This is very new to me.

I await your thanks to Vox Populi and Karma for that.

[Bob Janova]

Can't say for Sparta, but MHA knew and TOP was handling the peace negotiations.

You don't handle peace negotiations without there being at least the possibility of war.

MHA knew which is why they were so pissed off with their eternal MDP partner that they joined the other side? TOP knew that an aggressive war was about to start which is why they were mediating between the two sides to try to prevent one? Come on, Haf. Knowing that there is 'at least the possibility of war' (which everyone in CN did for several days before the war started) is a million miles from being properly notified of intent to attack.

[Ogaden]

I do believe you hold resentment, might want to reread my post again. If I were in your position, I'd have some anger or hatred toward someone as well.

Hatred is weakness, born out of impotence and fear.

To forgive is to be strong.

[Voodoo Nova]

Hatred is weakness, born out of impotence and fear.

To forgive is to be strong.

Didn't you say you hold resentment?

[Ogaden]

Didn't you say you hold resentment?

I do, that is not contradictory.

I'll get over it.

[Haflinger]

I await your thanks to Vox Populi and Karma for that.

Vox was too much of an annoyance for me to thank them, frankly. And I really doubt many of them had any interest in increased openness in government, seeing as how the main goal of their espionage effort was to reduce it.

Parts of Karma (and I think they pretty much all know who they are) I will thank for assisting. However - these changes are largely due to the continuing evolution of Pacifica, and the reduction of paranoia about spies, I think.

MHA knew which is why they were so pissed off with their eternal MDP partner that they joined the other side? TOP knew that an aggressive war was about to start which is why they were mediating between the two sides to try to prevent one? Come on, Haf. Knowing that there is 'at least the possibility of war' (which everyone in CN did for several days before the war started) is a million miles from being properly notified of intent to attack.

I've read the treaties (Continuum, Eternal MDOAP, etc.). They do not require a detailed time of attack to be given. They only require general information about the attack. Really general information, like basically the name of the alliance. And TOP and MHA certainly had that.

Apparently some people wanted more detailed information to be provided. Well, tough. Should have put that in the treaty in the first place if that's what you wanted.

[Sequoia Throne]

Hatred is weakness, born out of impotence and fear.

To forgive is to be strong.

Hatred often makes you stronger, gives you greater ferocity, and fuels your resolve. Hatred and resentment are not bad or weak things unless you let them control your rational decision making and common sense. Forgiveness is not strength or weakness - it can be either one, depending on the circumstances.

There's nothing wrong with holding grudges for legitimate wrongs. Like holding a grudge after being forced to pay out more technology then you have, there's nothing weak about that. The grudge may wither away with time or be purposefully forgiven out of practical reasons, but holding it is not weak.

[Bob Janova]

Continuum requires notice 72 hours in advance that you will be starting a war. Yes, just 'general information' – like 'we are going to attack'

[Gn0xious Jr]

I've read the treaties (Continuum, Eternal MDOAP, etc.). They do not require a detailed time of attack to be given. They only require general information about the attack. Really general information, like basically the name of the alliance. And TOP and MHA certainly had that.

Apparently some people wanted more detailed information to be provided. Well, tough. Should have put that in the treaty in the first place if that's what you wanted.

this type understanding is primarily why treaties aren't worth the paper they're written on, or pixels they're typed in... I would agree that there is a big difference between:

1) coming across information/hints that an aggressive act might happen

2) being approached by your ally with the intent, the reason, and the general time frame (hours/days/weeks)

It may not be clearly spelled out in the treaty, but you'd think that alliances holding such HIGH level treaties, there would be some openness between them. If treaty partners look at the writing of the treaty to find out how much they can get away with... then what is the real purpose of the treaty?

edit:

Continuum requires notice 72 hours in advance that you will be starting a war. Yes, just 'general information' – like 'we are going to attack'

good to know

Edited August 5, 2009 by Gn0xious Jr

[Haflinger]

Continuum requires notice 72 hours in advance that you will be starting a war. Yes, just 'general information' – like 'we are going to attack'

No, it didn't.

(Past tense, Bob. Treaty doesn't exist anymore.)

This is the relevant section.

Notice of offensive military action by any signatory must be given to other signatories no less than 72 hours prior to the commencement of hostilities. This time period will be used for the consideration of whether to undertake supportive offensive action.

Offensive military action is about the vaguest of all possible terms. Certainly, 72 hours before the commencement of hostilities, all the parties involved were aware NPO was considering it.

Not the best drafted section of any treaty I've ever seen.

[Archon]

While I'm sure Crymson can speak for himself, and if I'm speaking out of turn I invite him to correct me, but as he was the TOP representative (and I was the Karma one), we were BOTH quite surprised and appalled when the war broke out. In fact, he wasn't even aware it had happened until I told him. Somewhat strange, given that TOP was one of the strongest advocates for the Continuum in the first place.

[Heft]

Offensive military action is about the vaguest of all possible terms. Certainly, 72 hours before the commencement of hostilities, all the parties involved were aware NPO was considering it.

Not the best drafted section of any treaty I've ever seen.

Regardless of the wording of the treaty, it's just a stupid idea to not go tell the military partners you are dependent upon what in the hell you are actually doing. They may have been aware of some general intentions but it was pretty clear that most of the NPO's allies had very little or no warning an attack was imminent. If it was just another routine little war that would be forgivable, but this was clearly not going to be a routine war. Canceling the treaties in response in such a knee-jerk fashion was certainly a mistake, but given the shoddy state of NPO diplomacy at the time and the general lack of confidence or trust in them, it's understandable. The beginning of the war saw a lot of the Q/OV alliances make some of the worst mistakes of their careers, which can be attributed to the culmination of the paranoia and degradation of the relationships within the Continuum and its affiliates. I don't think any of them acted with malicious intent (not towards each other anyway) but they simply no longer had the relationship or communication to support the sort of undertaking that they were all half-unwittingly thrust into, and it became painfully obvious with startling immediacy.

[Corinan]

Hatred often makes you stronger, gives you greater ferocity, and fuels your resolve. Hatred and resentment are not bad or weak things unless you let them control your rational decision making and common sense. Forgiveness is not strength or weakness - it can be either one, depending on the circumstances.

There's nothing wrong with holding grudges for legitimate wrongs. Like holding a grudge after being forced to pay out more technology then you have, there's nothing weak about that. The grudge may wither away with time or be purposefully forgiven out of practical reasons, but holding it is not weak.

The Dark Side is strong with you Straylight.

Sorry, I'm contractually obligated to say things like that every once in a while.......

[Bob Janova]

Offensive military action is about the vaguest of all possible terms. Certainly, 72 hours before the commencement of hostilities, all the parties involved were aware NPO was considering it.

Vague? No it isn't. It is clear as day ... offensive military action is starting a war. It requires (required, whatever) notice when you actually decide to go ahead, and the 72h is for the other signatories, having received notice, to decide whether to support it.

I actually can't believe you're trying to e-lawyer that Continuum didn't require notice of wars. When there was an issue about that before (FAN redeclaration, I think), even the NPO didn't try to argue that way.

[Haflinger]

Regardless of the wording of the treaty, it's just a stupid idea to not go tell the military partners you are dependent upon what in the hell you are actually doing. They may have been aware of some general intentions but it was pretty clear that most of the NPO's allies had very little or no warning an attack was imminent. If it was just another routine little war that would be forgivable, but this was clearly not going to be a routine war. Canceling the treaties in response in such a knee-jerk fashion was certainly a mistake, but given the shoddy state of NPO diplomacy at the time and the general lack of confidence or trust in them, it's understandable. The beginning of the war saw a lot of the Q/OV alliances make some of the worst mistakes of their careers, which can be attributed to the culmination of the paranoia and degradation of the relationships within the Continuum and its affiliates. I don't think any of them acted with malicious intent (not towards each other anyway) but they simply no longer had the relationship or communication to support the sort of undertaking that they were all half-unwittingly thrust into, and it became painfully obvious with startling immediacy.

This is a much better argument than the usual "NPO violated the treaty" mantra that gets trotted out.

It's interesting you say that about warning. We actually had a lot of warning that an attack was imminent, as in that we basically knew that at any time the war might start, and we should hit private channels each night to find out if doomsday had begun.

(Another little tidbit - the name given by itself for what later became known as the Hegemony was Armageddon. Nobody had any illusions that the odds were on our side.)

[Sequoia Throne]

The Dark Side is strong with you Straylight.

Sorry, I'm contractually obligated to say things like that every once in a while.......

Oh yeah, I've been a disciple of the dark side since we rooted out and destroyed the Rebel Alliance aka GATO.

[Voodoo Nova]

Oh yeah, I've been a disciple of the dark side since we rooted out and destroyed the Rebel Alliance aka GATO.

I remember Star Wars month...

[Delta1212]

Regardless of the wording of the treaty, it's just a stupid idea to not go tell the military partners you are dependent upon what in the hell you are actually doing. They may have been aware of some general intentions but it was pretty clear that most of the NPO's allies had very little or no warning an attack was imminent. If it was just another routine little war that would be forgivable, but this was clearly not going to be a routine war. Canceling the treaties in response in such a knee-jerk fashion was certainly a mistake, but given the shoddy state of NPO diplomacy at the time and the general lack of confidence or trust in them, it's understandable. The beginning of the war saw a lot of the Q/OV alliances make some of the worst mistakes of their careers, which can be attributed to the culmination of the paranoia and degradation of the relationships within the Continuum and its affiliates. I don't think any of them acted with malicious intent (not towards each other anyway) but they simply no longer had the relationship or communication to support the sort of undertaking that they were all half-unwittingly thrust into, and it became painfully obvious with startling immediacy.

This is probably one of the best descriptions of the opening shots I've seen.

[Delta1212]

(Another little tidbit - the name given by itself for what later became known as the Hegemony was Armageddon. Nobody had any illusions that the odds were on our side.)

Heh, I'd been referring to it as Judgment Day (Terminator reference, rather than biblical).

Edited August 5, 2009 by Delta1212

[Heft]

This is a much better argument than the usual "NPO violated the treaty" mantra that gets trotted out.

It's interesting you say that about warning. We actually had a lot of warning that an attack was imminent, as in that we basically knew that at any time the war might start, and we should hit private channels each night to find out if doomsday had begun.

Obviously I can't say firsthand what the NPO was and wasn't saying, but from the actions and words of those who were involved around that time everything pointed to them certainly being aware that war was possible, maybe even likely in the near future, and practically inevitable within a few more months, at most, but being completely caught off guard by it starting right then.

(Another little tidbit - the name given by itself for what later became known as the Hegemony was Armageddon. Nobody had any illusions that the odds were on our side.)

Then why start the war!? Oh well, too late now.

[Azaghul]

Regardless of the wording of the treaty, it's just a stupid idea to not go tell the military partners you are dependent upon what in the hell you are actually doing. They may have been aware of some general intentions but it was pretty clear that most of the NPO's allies had very little or no warning an attack was imminent. If it was just another routine little war that would be forgivable, but this was clearly not going to be a routine war. Canceling the treaties in response in such a knee-jerk fashion was certainly a mistake, but given the shoddy state of NPO diplomacy at the time and the general lack of confidence or trust in them, it's understandable. The beginning of the war saw a lot of the Q/OV alliances make some of the worst mistakes of their careers, which can be attributed to the culmination of the paranoia and degradation of the relationships within the Continuum and its affiliates. I don't think any of them acted with malicious intent (not towards each other anyway) but they simply no longer had the relationship or communication to support the sort of undertaking that they were all half-unwittingly thrust into, and it became painfully obvious with startling immediacy.

The remaining Q and 1V alliances could have avoided a lot of the crap they took with the MADPs cancellations if they had made it made a quick and clear statement in their announcement that they still were going to honor cancellation clauses and their Q and 1V treaties and enter in. I forget who clarified it later, but it was revealed that many didn't intend the MADP cancellation to be a signal that they were bowing out of the war. They made a big mistake in not clarifying that, or even perhaps in having a clear idea of their intent with it.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Azaghul

[Heft]

The remaining Q and 1V alliances could have avoided a lot of the crap they took with the MADPs cancellations if they had made it made a quick and clear statement in their announcement that they still were going to honor cancellation clauses and their Q and 1V treaties and enter in. I forget who clarified it later, but it was revealed that many didn't intend the MADP cancellation to be a signal that they were bowing out of the war. They made a big mistake in not clarifying that, or even perhaps in having a clear idea of their intent with it.

Well yea. The list of things that could/should have been done better (or even not at all) from the first 48 hours of this war is quite long, and the mass cancelation is definitely around the top somewhere.

[Azaghul]

Then why start the war!? Oh well, too late now.

They probably believed that TOP, MHA, and others might be on their side or at least stay neutral, and didn't expect Karma to be so unified. A notion that was quickly dispelled when they attacked and saw everyone's reaction, especially TOPs, to the attack.

[Dilber]

Obviously I can't say firsthand what the NPO was and wasn't saying, but from the actions and words of those who were involved around that time everything pointed to them certainly being aware that war was possible, maybe even likely in the near future, and practically inevitable within a few more months, at most, but being completely caught off guard by it starting right then.

Then why start the war!? Oh well, too late now.

Heft, you know as well as I do the first wave was supposed to be IRON/TORN. The cancellations were an attempt to save themselves. There is seriously no way any of the people involved didn't know the war was starting, considering how many of them worked to help plan it.