TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[JBone]

You are the only one who would ever accuse TPF of being smart.

TPF, more specifically Slayer was very smart. He saw PC for what it was, or what it would become. His desire to end it before it had the opportunity to fester, was born of his perception that one day it would be a threat.

The majority of the old timers, myself included, did not share this view.

Ask gantanX who stopped Slayer from taking out NEW when they wanted to do their own thing....the old timers, me, more specifically. It was not right to deny them independence and worked out wonderfully for both TPF and NEW. They developed a great community and we gained a strong and loyal ally.

This was the thought process when PC was born. Do you remember? He was livid and wanted you, CTB, et al to die in a friggin fire. Ask Twist, he was still TPF then and my #2, he had access to everything. Once again, stopped by the old timers....christ you guys were our friends, most from back in the TF! days. Same tune when you wanted out of OPP, do you recall who facilitated that? Same when the recruiting crap came up. Suffice to say....he wanted PC dead and at every turn was told, we, the membership would not condone such actions. PC was still family.

So if you want to say that allowing sentiment to over rule strategy was not smart, then yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I was perhaps the biggest culprit and therefore the least smart.

I can just see the boss now, sitting on the porch in his rocker....laughing to himself and muttering "told ya so".

.......me, I wouldn't play it any other way.

[greatmagnus]

Again, people from TPF stated that they planted the clause in there for them to use themselves. PC just used it first.

[OneBallMan]

Why are people still discussing whether or not PC "broke" the treaty? You can e-lawyer it all over if you want, but in cases like this, it's merely the ones that have power that end up being "right" because it's a gray area. It's completely irrelevant to the actual issue. The actual issue is that TPF has leaders that would hold a grudge over the well-being of their citizens, which is appalling to say the least.

You are correct. Might makes right. Unless it doesn't.

Why do you keep repeating that TPF membership statement? I mean that has to be your twelfth post saying that. You don't know TPF very well if you make that statement. Our membership have been told repeatedly that they are free to go and to surrender to Karma forces, at anytime with no hard feelings. Somewhere north of 125 members have chosen to either do that or delete, including 6/11ths of our government members. You may want to use your super secret TPF forum account to read the posts on our board to understand that there is no membership issue. I am an Ember, or Old Fart, as the kids call us, and we are quasi government, mainly cause we are old and wise and stuff. But our job is to represent the will of the membership, and to act as a conduit for their wishes.

You don't want to get my point, I understand that, that point being that We'd be in this same boat if MK or FoB or CCC had done this. But none of those alliances would. You keep saying it is about a grudge, all I can say, is that you are wrong. If might makes right, and MK stands with PC and their shenanigans, then I guess that Karma was a lot more about might than right.

[mythicknight]

Again, people from TPF stated that they planted the clause in there for them to use themselves. PC just used it first.

Cue another 20 pages of "no", "oh christ not this again", "wat", etc.

[OneBallMan]

Again, people from TPF stated that they planted the clause in there for them to use themselves. PC just used it first.

Where? Link please.

Oh wait. It never happened.

[mhawk]

Again, people from TPF stated that they planted the clause in there for them to use themselves. PC just used it first.

Who stated that? Make you a deal, you find the log of my gov saying that and we'll take the terms right now.

[Kilkenny]

We dont and never will nor never have spied on TPF. Its not the way we roll, but enough people in the power circle of CN have tipped us off about it. Also you guys dont know how to keep quite and make it obvious your planning an attack.

Uh, sorry to dispell that one, but Astronaut Jones has stated he provided information to PC while he was in TSI, and this was here in an earleir announcment. And Lynn Creed was a member of TPF until about 1-2 days prior to the war starting when she left without resigning and went straight to PC. IDK what you call it, but sounds like you had someone on the inside right up until the time of the war starting, someone who was planning on joining yall as well. Sounds like spying to me.

[Gn0xious Jr]

out of curiosity,

why can't TPF accept terms from each individual alliance, versus the group of terms presented? It would seem that if they have an issue with PC, they can take it up with them privately to seek peace.

or is it one of those, "if one alliance doesn't get peace, noone does" things?

edit:

re-reviewed the web or DoW's and such, and I can see how everyone is "tied" together.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Gn0xious Jr

[astronaut jones]

TPF, more specifically Slayer was very smart. He saw PC for what it was, or what it would become. His desire to end it before it had the opportunity to fester, was born of his perception that one day it would be a threat.

The majority of the old timers, myself included, did not share this view.

Ask gantanX who stopped Slayer from taking out NEW when they wanted to do their own thing....the old timers, me, more specifically. It was not right to deny them independence and worked out wonderfully for both TPF and NEW. They developed a great community and we gained a strong and loyal ally.

This was the thought process when PC was born. Do you remember? He was livid and wanted you, CTB, et al to die in a friggin fire. Ask Twist, he was still TPF then and my #2, he had access to everything. Once again, stopped by the old timers....christ you guys were our friends, most from back in the TF! days. Same tune when you wanted out of OPP, do you recall who facilitated that? Same when the recruiting crap came up. Suffice to say....he wanted PC dead and at every turn was told, we, the membership would not condone such actions. PC was still family.

So if you want to say that allowing sentiment to over rule strategy was not smart, then yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I was perhaps the biggest culprit and therefore the least smart.

I can just see the boss now, sitting on the porch in his rocker....laughing to himself and muttering "told ya so".

.......me, I wouldn't play it any other way.

Not my fault you couldn't pull the trigger. Also, it would have helped your cause if someone did recruit, but again, not my fault you couldn't pull the trigger, though it is your fault that you made PC into the threat against you. Without the constant taunts of things like "we COULD kill you" PC never would have been a threat to you.

You made it a threat.

[Sandwich Controversy]

out of curiosity,

why can't TPF accept terms from each individual alliance, versus the group of terms presented? It would seem that if they have an issue with PC, they can take it up with them privately to seek peace.

or is it one of those, "if one alliance doesn't get peace, noone does" things?

edit:

re-reviewed the web or DoW's and such, and I can see how everyone is "tied" together.

We're not going to leave Poison Clan alone on the battlefield, whether we have a treaty or not.

[Kilkenny]

Why are people still discussing whether or not PC "broke" the treaty? You can e-lawyer it all over if you want, but in cases like this, it's merely the ones that have power that end up being "right" because it's a gray area. It's completely irrelevant to the actual issue. The actual issue is that TPF has leaders that would hold a grudge over the well-being of their citizens, which is appalling to say the least.

At this point, it is the citizens of TPF who are speaking, not just the leaders. The leaders are just the voice of TPF.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

out of curiosity,

why can't TPF accept terms from each individual alliance, versus the group of terms presented? It would seem that if they have an issue with PC, they can take it up with them privately to seek peace.

or is it one of those, "if one alliance doesn't get peace, noone does" things?

edit:

re-reviewed the web or DoW's and such, and I can see how everyone is "tied" together.

Because you don't leave a man behind.

[mhawk]

Because you don't leave a man behind.

Actually I don't think pc is allied to a single alliance still at war with us.

This was actually to the guy you quoted, not you. My mistake.

Edited July 28, 2009 by mhawk

[JBone]

Not my fault you couldn't pull the trigger. Also, it would have helped your cause if someone did recruit, but again, not my fault you couldn't pull the trigger, though it is your fault that you made PC into the threat against you. Without the constant taunts of things like "we COULD kill you" PC never would have been a threat to you.

You made it a threat.

Not couldn't....didn't want to.

You miss my point, in the days of flimsy CBs, just the fact that we said you recruited was more than enough and with the support of tC....which was overwhelming, would have had zero PR fallout.

It was never about pulling the trigger to TPF membership, just doing the right thing. You know most of these guys greenie.

I think in the taunting battle we come up about even.....especially if you count very vocal, very abrasive, former PC members, leaders.....or even founders.

The irony is that the forces that did make PC into a threat are no longer here......only the forces that time and time again saved it's $@! from becoming a smoking crater.

[Bob Janova]

As I remember there was a 'good enough' CB to attack Poison Clan (recruiting with the purpose of attacking TPF later, or something), and that would probably have got majority support in Continuum. When PC people try to use the fact you weren't attacked as a stick to beat TPF with, you are being silly, as it was TPF who chose to take a diplomatic route (Pink team and the NAP) instead of rolling you.

However, that's still irrelevant to the terms today.

[JBone]

Arguing about PC's conduct re the NAP seems like it's better suited to three months ago in their DoW thread – it seems a pretty silly reason to reject terms offered to you today.

I agree that talking about the NAP is a waste of time now.

As for rejecting terms Bob, look at it as a roll of the dice.

MK and the others are not going to leave PC behind on the battlefield......and I don't blame them. They fought beside each other and should have a united front....right now.

How long before PC farks up and does something so distasteful that either they get rolled by someone or world opinion shifts to such a degree that decent AAs want nothing more to do with them?

Perhaps better odds than rolling a hard six?

[Gn0xious Jr]

Because you don't leave a man behind.

I was thinking out loud, which is always a BAD thing to do here, i know

For some reason, I was under the impression that PC was not a part of Karma, and acted on their own accord. However, after having the chance to review the DoW's I can see how they are tied to allies, and their allies, etc...

I agree, don't leave a man behind.

[JBone]

As I remember there was a 'good enough' CB to attack Poison Clan (recruiting with the purpose of attacking TPF later, or something), and that would probably have got majority support in Continuum. When PC people try to use the fact you weren't attacked as a stick to beat TPF with, you are being silly, as it was TPF who chose to take a diplomatic route (Pink team and the NAP) instead of rolling you.

However, that's still irrelevant to the terms today.

I was going to write something about returning a favor or cashing in on past good will, but could not do so without spitting coffee all over myself.

Anyways, I'm off for the beach. Hot sand, cold beer and tiny bikinis is certainly preferable to going around in circles with you fine gentlemen.

[potato]

Hell no.

Is that strong enough for you? If I had, and foreseen the consequences, we'd have reworded. I have written, reviewed and inputted on hundreds of treaties in my time here on Bob. Putting trapdoors in is as stupid as making a treaty unbreakable.

It has been said that this treaty was written from scratch by someone who had never written a treaty before. That is very true. It was also rushed and didn't get the microscopic review that every single treaty that TPF will ever even consider will get moving forward.

My logic of no-ill will flows from my extended dealings with CTB over the years. You have to remember that PC was in the downdog position when this treaty was signed, and was exposed to the same wording that he so artfully suspended morality to flip back on us. You seriously think that CTB would have allowed such craptastic language to leave PC totally exposed? I imagine one day, smart guy that he is, he went back and read the treaty, to prep for cancelling it, and noticed the language. Voila! Knife in our side.

I wasn't expecting anything, besides an honest answer.

Without blaming anyone (not TPF, not PC, not the one who wrote the treaty), you have to admit it is oddly worded. Someone either did it on purpose or it was a mistake. Either/or, it is surprising that none of the many people in both gov't didn't notice it. Maybe you, personnally, didn't see it but maybe mhawk did. Or JBone. Or CTB. Or pooks. Or god knows who else on both sides has read that mess before it was signed.

[Kryievla]

As I remember there was a 'good enough' CB to attack Poison Clan (recruiting with the purpose of attacking TPF later, or something), and that would probably have got majority support in Continuum. When PC people try to use the fact you weren't attacked as a stick to beat TPF with, you are being silly, as it was TPF who chose to take a diplomatic route (Pink team and the NAP) instead of rolling you.

I remember this as well. In fact, I was reviewing old logs the other day; it's the ONLY time I've seen certain folks here advocate war over diplomacy. In my opinion, TPF & Valhalla both took hits to political capital in saying they would not support such a rolling. Because well, we actually found a thing that most of tC (and Planet Bob for the matter, at the time) agreed on.

We had CB. We had the ability. You had nobody. But you did get a treaty with a tC person, in that NAP. Which meant you couldn't get rolled. And you had people that liked you (that'd be us), and people that wanted to try to work things out (that'd be TPF). The irony is enough to make my eyes bleed

While it is not particularly relevant to what is going on now, maybe you all can stop talking about how they wanted to kill you. Because they could have. Easily. And not only would no one have stopped them, but also normally peaceful diplomatic types would have been cheering them on. I have never 'dumped logs' in my life. I consider it quite tasteless and low. But I should think that if Valhalla and the Gramlins can agree to something, maybe that's something all you people reading this should maybe think about

You broke a treaty, and claimed to be waiting for a chance to stab them in the back in this very thread. Your claim is 'oh but they were going to break it first'. How do you know what they were thinking? What they were 'going to do'? Psychic much? Since when does a 'I-thought-he-might' mean anything anyway? You say the rumor mill said this & that. Well, the rumor mill says a lot of things. Sometimes those things are true. Sometimes they are just things people wish were true. Sometimes it is also used to trace spies. It is also a tool, used to spread disinformation and mistrust, to drive wedges into cracks and make relationships break.

You claim they were waiting to roll you. Well, they had the time, resources, and opportunity. See above: they had a veritable coalition of the willing. And they instead chose diplomacy. That doesn't sound like people trying to roll you.

You attacked their protectorate during a war. That's an insulting slap to the face. Would you have attacked one of Polar's protectorates? How about Invicta's? Ragnarok's? They were all at war at some point, and Invicta & RoK couldn't defend their blocmates either, they've been stretched thin because they were on the front lines. Seems pretty clear to me you did it solely to hurt TPF.

You still have some cool guys, but a lot of you are coming off as pretty petty & low here. I still like a lot of you, but yeesh, this just *smells*. I hope you all can maybe think about those things, perhaps give the same benefit of the doubt that they gave you.

[Haflinger]

Again, people from TPF stated that they planted the clause in there for them to use themselves. PC just used it first.

No, they didn't.

Quote someone from TPF stating that anywhere on these forums.

[JoseyWales]

Not couldn't....didn't want to.

You miss my point, in the days of flimsy CBs, just the fact that we said you recruited was more than enough and with the support of tC....which was overwhelming, would have had zero PR fallout.

Which is why most of us in PC were so paranoid of TPF. The constant threat that you could just use your word and no proof was enough to make the common member very wary and eager to see that threat eliminated. Forgive us for ridding our world from the threat of a flimsy CB. I doubt that our alliances will ever trust each other but the blame can not be laid solely on our door step when you admit flimsy CBs were the order of the day. Ending a NAP on a technicality with an alliance who admits to using flimsy reasons for war seems fully justified to this nation.

[astronaut jones]

Not couldn't....didn't want to.

You miss my point, in the days of flimsy CBs, just the fact that we said you recruited was more than enough and with the support of tC....which was overwhelming, would have had zero PR fallout.

It was never about pulling the trigger to TPF membership, just doing the right thing. You know most of these guys greenie.

I think in the taunting battle we come up about even.....especially if you count very vocal, very abrasive, former PC members, leaders.....or even founders.

The irony is that the forces that did make PC into a threat are no longer here......only the forces that time and time again saved it's $@! from becoming a smoking crater.

I still see mhawk and kilkenny and a whole host of others that I know for fact wanted PC dead just as much as slayer did, in TPF.

Nice try though.

[Haflinger]

Which is why most of us in PC were so paranoid of TPF. The constant threat that you could just use your word and no proof was enough to make the common member very wary and eager to see that threat eliminated. Forgive us for ridding our world from the threat of a flimsy CB. I doubt that our alliances will ever trust each other but the blame can not be laid solely on our door step when you admit flimsy CBs were the order of the day. Ending a NAP on a technicality with an alliance who admits to using flimsy reasons for war seems fully justified to this nation.

You might want to reread the post you quoted.

In it, the guy said his alliance could have used the reason they had to attack you without any PR fallout, and didn't.

This is the exact opposite of what you say he says.

[deth2munkies]

You are correct. Might makes right. Unless it doesn't.

Why do you keep repeating that TPF membership statement? I mean that has to be your twelfth post saying that. You don't know TPF very well if you make that statement. Our membership have been told repeatedly that they are free to go and to surrender to Karma forces, at anytime with no hard feelings. Somewhere north of 125 members have chosen to either do that or delete, including 6/11ths of our government members. You may want to use your super secret TPF forum account to read the posts on our board to understand that there is no membership issue. I am an Ember, or Old Fart, as the kids call us, and we are quasi government, mainly cause we are old and wise and stuff. But our job is to represent the will of the membership, and to act as a conduit for their wishes.

You don't want to get my point, I understand that, that point being that We'd be in this same boat if MK or FoB or CCC had done this. But none of those alliances would. You keep saying it is about a grudge, all I can say, is that you are wrong. If might makes right, and MK stands with PC and their shenanigans, then I guess that Karma was a lot more about might than right.

I'm not trying to excuse any action, merely stating that the PC "loophole" is a gray area worth debating only for e-lawyering e-peen and in actuality, it does not matter at all in the current stage what was "right" as it is done. Personally, I believe the treaty was badly worded and left both sides open for what ultimately happened. I would feel the same if TPF had used said loophole to attack Poison Clan, personally, I will admit I have no particular love for either alliance in this case. What I can say is that you're coming off as insanely petty: You're basically resigning yourselves to a FAN like state of irrelevancy by choice rather than by actions taken against you. As for MK, FoB, and CCC refusing to back down from the terms, would you not support your allies? It seems your allies are the only ones posting positive things in this thread. If PC's allies didn't back them up, they wouldn't be much of an ally would they?

Not only that, but I would say the 125 members that have left or deleted represented a majority of your alliance that you did not listen to. I expect your membership will trend downwards from there due to your stubbornness. Most likely what you've been hearing is the vocal minority, because in any given alliance, no matter what size, there tend to be less than 50 people that actually participate in any substantial way. The others play for fun or for their nation, neither of which you really have in your current state.

This move doesn't restore your pride, it doesn't earn political points, it doesn't benefit yourselves or your nations, thus it sure as hell isn't smart. Accept the damn terms and get it over with. There will be other days and other ways to fight your enemies rather than crying over a scraped knee.

Edited July 28, 2009 by deth2munkies