Kaiser Gutenhagen Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Menotah Triumvur here I do not fully understand this whatsoever. Menotah Gov had never been informed by Athens that any member had been recruiting from them, therefore, we assumed nothing was going on. We had one incident weeks ago, and he has ZI'd. I haven't seen proof, screenshots or logs of any recruiting activites from our members and it seems to me that this is wholly based on speculation and assumptions. I don't know about how justice works nowadays, but I used to believe that proof was required before punishment, or threatening a justification of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCrotch Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 The world's most confusing non-declaration of war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londo Mollari Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 TOOL didn't take a diplomatic solution, TOOL basically handed them over to Athens and said you win.Dodged another treaty obligation to save that precious NS Is it honorable to be a shield from justice when someone lies to you and you sign a protectorate with them? I consider TOOL to be a very honorable alliance, and no, this wasn't about Athens or TOOL winning or losing. This was about TOOL realizing Menotah lied to them, suspending the protectorate so that the wronged party could seek redress (which I see as the most honorable course of action), and re-evaluating the treaty during this period. Nor did TOOL just hand them over when we approached them. We invested significant time communicating the evidence to TOOL and discussing our course of action. TOOL did exactly what I would have done in this case - look at the evidence and make a call. I can promise you that I won't be shielding some small alliance from past misdeeds though. I'll investigate, and if they are trying to use me as a shield against the consequences of wrongs they have committed against others, then they will get dropped. All the TOOL bashing in this thread is a bit silly, they are great guys and they acted in this difficult and trying situation pretty much as we would have. I Seriously Lol'd at this, As far as the actual announcement is concern , since i am not fully aware what really happened nor do i care to find out, I will break CN tradition by not blabbering on about something I have no clue about, so instead i will just say congrats on finding a peaceful resolution, however I don’t understand why it must be made public as if to prove to the world that you are merciful, The way I see it people should do things because they feel they are right thing to do and not because they want to use it as a publicity stunt. stop picking on little alliances londo your a big boy now go pick on somebody your own size. , really dude there really wasnt any need for an annoucement about how wonderful and merciful you are if everyone knows it there is no need to publicly announce it. There wouldn't have been a need to make a public statement if mhawk hadn't gone public with this mess a few days ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejayrazz Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) Londo, my definition of friendship would differ from yours. Friends can make mistakes, friends wouldn't cancel a treaty over a 'lie', thought this in itself has a back story. In the old days, treaties were a sign of love. Though both parties would be faithfully good, love is about being there through the thick and thin. Even when your lover $%&@s up, even though Meno didn't intentionally sabotage anyone, you're there through thick and thin. This is friendship. Friendship is love. Friendship is a bond, the only thing worth playing [ooc]this game[. Everything else is numbers and 1s and 0s in a database which easily can be erased or replaced, but our decisions are not, our friendship will ALWAYS exist and will echo throughout history, it is something stronger than anything else, the one thing we ALL can attest to despite where ever you descend from. In todays age, individuals have a little crush similar to sixth graders dating and sign treaties, but when little minor excursions like these happen..they take the alternative and cancel because neither were truly close like the old ways of playing and executing treaty signing. That bond was never formed. Instead, you move on to the next crush you have. Friendship is beyond paper. You never let a friend perish. Ever. If you do, either you aren't carefully signing treaties like the old days or you're dishonorable. Its either one in my opinion. Edited July 18, 2009 by Ejayrazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol Navy Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Menotah Triumvur hereI do not fully understand this whatsoever. Menotah Gov had never been informed by Athens that any member had been recruiting from them, therefore, we assumed nothing was going on. We had one incident weeks ago, and he has ZI'd. I haven't seen proof, screenshots or logs of any recruiting activites from our members and it seems to me that this is wholly based on speculation and assumptions. I don't know about how justice works nowadays, but I used to believe that proof was required before punishment, or threatening a justification of it. You might as well chalk it up to a lesson learned and at a lower price than many have to pay. If a big, well connected alliance decides to roll you, you have very few avenues of escape. You just got very lucky that C&G didn't want to take the PR hit that this was already causing at this point and talked Athens out of rolling you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 The OP disappoints on so many levels and seems to be attention whoring.... poor form It is a bit unnecessary, isn't it? Damn Athens... next thing you know they'll be posting updates on their internal affairs every week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfEmpty Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Sileath me Duck, I sense you have a used praise-plugin. Can I rent it? I want to be able to crank out Athenian hailery and Spartan..... LOLICANT. Anyway, how much? I'll need the diesel option of course and a hand-crank would be awesome, times being what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorponok Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Athens you are truly a great alliance, or a stupid one . But Londo is always right. So this show of mercy is hailed. Tut tut tut Menotah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londo Mollari Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Londo, my definition of friendship would differ from yours. Friends can make mistakes, friends wouldn't cancel a treaty over a 'lie', thought this in itself has a back story. In the old days, treaties were a sign of love. Though both parties would be faithfully good, love is about being there through the thick and thin. Even when your lover $%&@s up, even though Meno didn't intentionally sabotage anyone, you're there through thick and thin. This is friendship. Friendship is love. Friendship is a bond, the only thing worth playing [ooc]this game[. Everything else is numbers and 1s and 0s in a database which easily can be erased or replaced, but our decisions are not, our friendship will ALWAYS exist and will echo throughout history, it is something stronger than anything else, the one thing we ALL can attest to despite where ever you descend from. In todays age, individuals have a little crush similar to sixth graders dating and sign treaties, but when little minor excursions like these happen..they take the alternative and cancel because neither were truly close like the old ways of playing and executing treaty signing. That bond was never formed. Instead, you move on to the next crush you have. Friendship is beyond paper. You never let a friend perish. Ever. If you do, either you aren't carefully signing treaties like the old days or you're dishonorable. Its either one in my opinion. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31106 Hello Ejay, my name is Londo, and I honored treaties before it was the cool thing to do. That said, there is a big difference between someone you meet and talk to for a few days and decide to protect lying to you to run from a past issue, and having some issue with a longstanding friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejayrazz Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31106Hello Ejay, my name is Londo, and I honored treaties before it was the cool thing to do. That said, there is a big difference between someone you meet and talk to for a few days and decide to protect lying to you to run from a past issue, and having some issue with a longstanding friend. 2008 wasn't before it was 'the cool thing to do'. Also, my assertion wasn't meant to claim you don't honor treaties, I apologize for this misconception. My post was first directed towards you, obviously, but then generated into a question for TOOL as they are the protectors, not you, thought it'd be self explanatory but I see the confusion. My main point was "This was about TOOL realizing Menotah lied to them, suspending the protectorate so that the wronged party could seek redress (which I see as the most honorable course of action), and re-evaluating the treaty during this period." A real friend wouldn't do this. Ever. If you need to question the treaty, do it after you follow it. Not suspend it. Hence the importance on signing with only those you truly can trust. Just a difference of opinion between Londo and myself on how far to go to protect someone, the honor spiel was for TOOL and the past 5-7 posts were based towards TOOLs actions, not Sparta's or Athens. Edited July 18, 2009 by Ejayrazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I'm beginning to think that attacking Menotath really would have ended better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejayrazz Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsoxbronco1 Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I'm beginning to think that attacking Menotath really would have ended better You clearly run Athens, so this is all your fault. Stupid Archon...getting credit for all my hard work. )): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaBuc Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Londo, my definition of friendship would differ from yours. Friends can make mistakes, friends wouldn't cancel a treaty over a 'lie', thought this in itself has a back story. In the old days, treaties were a sign of love. Though both parties would be faithfully good, love is about being there through the thick and thin. Even when your lover $%&@s up, even though Meno didn't intentionally sabotage anyone, you're there through thick and thin. This is friendship. Friendship is love. Friendship is a bond, the only thing worth playing [ooc]this game[. Everything else is numbers and 1s and 0s in a database which easily can be erased or replaced, but our decisions are not, our friendship will ALWAYS exist and will echo throughout history, it is something stronger than anything else, the one thing we ALL can attest to despite where ever you descend from. In todays age, individuals have a little crush similar to sixth graders dating and sign treaties, but when little minor excursions like these happen..they take the alternative and cancel because neither were truly close like the old ways of playing and executing treaty signing. That bond was never formed. Instead, you move on to the next crush you have. Friendship is beyond paper. You never let a friend perish. Ever. If you do, either you aren't carefully signing treaties like the old days or you're dishonorable. Its either one in my opinion. Ejay, I agree, but I'd contend that a protectorate is different from an MDP. With an MDP, you get to know the alliance for a long time before you sign (or at least you should). That was always my policy at TOOL and it's one they continue to this day. They don't sign those lightly, nor cancel them lightly. TOOL has has MDP allies get rolled twice and defended them both times. Now, with a protectorate, the alliance you're signing with is new. You're helping them get started. You don't spend months getting to know a potential protectorate. If they lie to you, in my opinion the protection's forfeit. I wish TOOL would have just canceled this instead of suspending it (see my various rants about ODN's magical suspension clauses), but they did the right thing. Protection is not the same as an MDP. If you abuse the protector's trust, they should cancel. -Bama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Faith Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Well after further examination of this thread I have come to the conclusion that all this constitutes is that Athens had NO clear CB on Menotah and therefore had to use a 'mercy thread' to still manage to get good PR out of it. However, the veil did not cover their intentions sufficiently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunterman1043 Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Well after further examination of this thread I have come to the conclusion that all this constitutes is that Athens had NO clear CB on Menotah and therefore had to use a 'mercy thread' to still manage to get good PR out of it. However, the veil did not cover their intentions sufficiently. Brilliant Political Move Athens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrux Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 remember when hunter fake dowed on an alliance? good times! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunterman1043 Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 It wasn't fake when I posted it! BAH! lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believland Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 remember when hunter fake dowed on an alliance? good times! Or the time he deleted a whole alliance board. Or the time he got BDC rolled? Ah the good times continue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejayrazz Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Ejay, I agree, but I'd contend that a protectorate is different from an MDP. With an MDP, you get to know the alliance for a long time before you sign (or at least you should). That was always my policy at TOOL and it's one they continue to this day. They don't sign those lightly, nor cancel them lightly. TOOL has has MDP allies get rolled twice and defended them both times. Now, with a protectorate, the alliance you're signing with is new. You're helping them get started. You don't spend months getting to know a potential protectorate. If they lie to you, in my opinion the protection's forfeit. I wish TOOL would have just canceled this instead of suspending it (see my various rants about ODN's magical suspension clauses), but they did the right thing. Protection is not the same as an MDP. If you abuse the protector's trust, they should cancel.-Bama Valid points. However, too my knowledge it wasn't this huge conspiracy my friend. They did indeed say "kinda/sorta", instead of a flat out no, I don't see them as these mongering saboteurs, plus shouldn't have TOOL gone and spoken with Athens prior to the agreement for safe keeping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrux Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 plus shouldn't have TOOL gone and spoken with Athens prior to the agreement for safe keeping? ding ding ding or vise versa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 ding ding ding or vise versa Gnid gnid gnid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Blake Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Valid points.However, too my knowledge it wasn't this huge conspiracy my friend. They did indeed say "kinda/sorta", instead of a flat out no, I don't see them as these mongering saboteurs, plus shouldn't have TOOL gone and spoken with Athens prior to the agreement for safe keeping? Yeah, they probably should have, hindsight and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawk11 Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I'm beginning to think that attacking Menotath really would have ended better Oh Archon. It would've went over if it was phrased/presented better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChesterStevensDevonn Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I honour my treaties, something I have always done and continue to do even if my ally is in the wrong. A treaty is a treaty, not something you should turn your back on when it it does not suit you Not necessarily. There is that place in a treaty where it says you can end it. Every alliance is on there own just like every member is on there own. That does not mean that you can't have friends. It seems to me menotah were not friends with Athens, because they recruited from us, and were not friends with TOOL because they lied to them. When your a friend you do not lie to them. (In this game you can withhold information, but you cannot lie. you can't lie, because things will eventually end up on a bad path.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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