Next war?

[Sylar]

Uh, did you not see the wars that are already happening? I'm not sure what you're talking about.

pre emptive strikes one happened before this poll and yes mhawk at least delayed this for tool who were given 24 hours to drop there treaty with Menotah that expired around update that just happened so it looks like mahwk throwing this into the public eye stopped or at least delayed it. (this from what i understand)

Edit: its a 29 man AA and only 2 wars with Athens so they definitely didn't ask to go full scale yet or thats a bad turn out

Edited July 17, 2009 by Sylar

[Duncan King]

Well, after not having been briefed by any of the parties involved (Mia and Graham, call me ) but by carefully reading this thread, I have discerned the following about the situation. My comments are in italics.

1. Menotah is a group of nations that were originally part of The Dark Evolution but left the alliance because they did not want to be part of the merger with Athens. Athens is apparently not too happy with them for not coming. Splinter alliances happen every time there is a merger, this is nothing new at all. Sure, Athens is probably a bit sore that they didn't get the extra NS, but not everyone wants to lose their home and become part of a larger alliance.

2. Menotah is apparently protected by TOOL. Although their Wiki says CDT, I am confused. It appears that this goes a bit deeper.

3. Someone in Menotah sent a message to someone in Athens that Athens interpreted as a recruitment message. It appears that it may have been the Athens MoD, but that has not really been confirmed. I know that these can be annoying and especially given the politics between Athens and Menotah, it's understandable that they could be none too happy about it. However, these things do happen. When we first founded Zenith, one of our members posted a recruiting message in the NATO public IRC channel. NATO were none too happy but we were able to resolve it. We also had an incident where a person sent 250 recruiting messages to various nations on Bob, most of them in an alliance and some of them government. It was an accident. We apologized to all of the nations and alliances involved and promised it would never happen again and that was that.

4. Athens did not appreciate the message and brought the issue up with Menotah and its protectors. Diplomatic solutions either were not used or were not satisfactory because Athens apparently put a hit out on Menotah. Claiming that there was never a hit out on Menotah is pointless because Athens had jumpers. There had to have been enough of a charged environment in Athens to make people think there was a war coming.

5. Mhawk posted this thread in an effort to either encourage the parties to reconsider or to give the effort some extremely negative PR. Whether or not it succeeded or not, it certainly was amusing to see how much leaked out.

[Rebel Virginia]

We're pretty sure there have been other recruitments, but we don't have solid proof so we're not bringing them up.

Sounds like speculation to me, meant only to further blow the situation out of proportion. Completely unnecessary in my eyes.

Can you actually afford another war?

Wait, Sparta is fighting a war? Sure had me fooled.

Athens is apparently not too happy with them for not coming.

Well then, I guess its settled. Either join Athens or get rolled. Don't want to upset Athens now do we?

Edited July 17, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[Rafael Nadal]

Well, after not having been briefed by any of the parties involved (Mia and Graham, call me ) but by carefully reading this thread, I have discerned the following about the situation. My comments are in italics.

1. Menotah is a group of nations that were originally part of The Dark Evolution but left the alliance because they did not want to be part of the merger with Athens. Athens is apparently not too happy with them for not coming. Splinter alliances happen every time there is a merger, this is nothing new at all. Sure, Athens is probably a bit sore that they didn't get the extra NS, but not everyone wants to lose their home and become part of a larger alliance.

2. Menotah is apparently protected by TOOL. Although their Wiki says CDT, I am confused. It appears that this goes a bit deeper.

3. Someone in Menotah sent a message to someone in Athens that Athens interpreted as a recruitment message. It appears that it may have been the Athens MoD, but that has not really been confirmed. I know that these can be annoying and especially given the politics between Athens and Menotah, it's understandable that they could be none too happy about it. However, these things do happen. When we first founded Zenith, one of our members posted a recruiting message in the NATO public IRC channel. NATO were none too happy but we were able to resolve it. We also had an incident where a person sent 250 recruiting messages to various nations on Bob, most of them in an alliance and some of them government. It was an accident. We apologized to all of the nations and alliances involved and promised it would never happen again and that was that.

4. Athens did not appreciate the message and brought the issue up with Menotah and its protectors. Diplomatic solutions either were not used or were not satisfactory because Athens apparently put a hit out on Menotah. Claiming that there was never a hit out on Menotah is pointless because Athens had jumpers. There had to have been enough of a charged environment in Athens to make people think there was a war coming.

5. Mhawk posted this thread in an effort to either encourage the parties to reconsider or to give the effort some extremely negative PR. Whether or not it succeeded or not, it certainly was amusing to see how much leaked out.

Seems mostly correct. However, I'm under the impression that Menotah mass recruited from Athens-DE, not just one message. Also, they were told ahead of time, that they would be attacked if they recruited from Athens-DE during the process.

[enderland]

Yah, I doubt mhawk's post did anything to prevent anything. Further inflame a situation? Maybe Throw a wrench into the fine art of diplomacy? Mayhap.

Prevent? Not so much.

If you can't start wars through conventional means gotta try unconventional eh?

[Vol Navy]

Sure they can afford another war. RoK is the one taking the heat from NPO. That's left many others on the NPO front with nothing to do but twiddle thumbs and rebuild while RoK's NS drops as if it's fighting Pacifica 1 vs 1.

Also, someone said "all" that was proposed was a couple of rounds of non-nuclear war....sounds like a great way to get back land and tech that has been lost lately.

Basically an organized tech raid over a possible recruitment letter from a 17 day old alliance with 29 total members who didn't want to merge with Athens. That's outstanding stuff.

Let's see 225 nations vs 29 = Curbstomp. Check.

Extremely weak CB. Check.

Pressuring others to drop their treaties to make curbstomp extremely easy. Check.

Vengence against some who didn't want to merge with them. Check.

You would make a fine member of the Hegemony. To bad you got on your soap box and crusaded against "ebil curbstomp wars with flimsy CB's against the little guy" and all that stuff, some might think this current action would make you look like hypocrites.

Of course the sentiment of the day from your side was a "shoot the messenger" mentality. mhawk can't win. He gets accused of all the bad things TPF did long before he was even a member but when he tries to do something to prevent the same kind of thing he gets called out on that too.

You wanted TPF to change. You have pounded that into us for 3 months now. "Ebil Hegemonic curbstompings with weak CBs are ebil! The world won't stand for it anymore!!" Well, it appears mhawk got the message and decided to speak out.

[Ejayrazz]

Well, after not having been briefed by any of the parties involved (Mia and Graham, call me ) but by carefully reading this thread, I have discerned the following about the situation. My comments are in italics.

1. Menotah is a group of nations that were originally part of The Dark Evolution but left the alliance because they did not want to be part of the merger with Athens. Athens is apparently not too happy with them for not coming. Splinter alliances happen every time there is a merger, this is nothing new at all. Sure, Athens is probably a bit sore that they didn't get the extra NS, but not everyone wants to lose their home and become part of a larger alliance.

2. Menotah is apparently protected by TOOL. Although their Wiki says CDT, I am confused. It appears that this goes a bit deeper.

3. Someone in Menotah sent a message to someone in Athens that Athens interpreted as a recruitment message. It appears that it may have been the Athens MoD, but that has not really been confirmed. I know that these can be annoying and especially given the politics between Athens and Menotah, it's understandable that they could be none too happy about it. However, these things do happen. When we first founded Zenith, one of our members posted a recruiting message in the NATO public IRC channel. NATO were none too happy but we were able to resolve it. We also had an incident where a person sent 250 recruiting messages to various nations on Bob, most of them in an alliance and some of them government. It was an accident. We apologized to all of the nations and alliances involved and promised it would never happen again and that was that.

4. Athens did not appreciate the message and brought the issue up with Menotah and its protectors. Diplomatic solutions either were not used or were not satisfactory because Athens apparently put a hit out on Menotah. Claiming that there was never a hit out on Menotah is pointless because Athens had jumpers. There had to have been enough of a charged environment in Athens to make people think there was a war coming.

5. Mhawk posted this thread in an effort to either encourage the parties to reconsider or to give the effort some extremely negative PR. Whether or not it succeeded or not, it certainly was amusing to see how much leaked out.

Finally. Rationality.

[Wabooz]

Thread full of drama queens. Check.

GL working this out Athens and Menotah.

[Rebel Virginia]

You wanted TPF to change.

Well, you guys sure did, and you're not the only ones. I think I'll like this new and improved Athens. They're not afraid to show the little guy who's boss. Takes balls.

[Sylar]

errr Duncan King im pretty sure this whole thing was hush hush should edit the names out lol.

[UberSpion]

I was pretty hammered last night and wasn't online so I'm not sure how active this topic still is, but my guess is we'll attack some 100 man alliance with about 5 people over 20k because they accidentally recruited one person who was in our applicant AA and was getting raided. We won't worry about finding a diplomatic solution...I mean hey, as long as they don't have diplomatic ties everything is ok, right? Oh you know what else I should do? I should register all the IRC channels that would make sense for them to use since they're not very experienced and haven't used it before. I bet their forums are run poorly, so I'll go register and read everything I can.

You know what would make it even better?

How about once we absolutely wreck this alliance, we ask for 2k tech as reps for all the terrible damage I'm sure we'll take.

You're so full of !@#$ mhawk. Let me know if I left anything out or just go back to posting "TPF is still at war" topics to make yourself feel better.

EDIT: Hungover spelling is hungover

But mhawk has changed... Don't you see.. He has broken his cocoon of wrong and spreading his wings of right...

[Nintenderek]

While the correct answer is not up there, I am starting to see divisions between alliances already. I predict 8 months.

[Ejayrazz]

errr Duncan King im pretty sure this whole thing was hush hush should edit the names out lol.

It isn't hush hush. The dilemma is known everywhere and any attempts now to keep it hush hush are futile.

ESPECIALLY when participating leaders/members are actively posting, even if attempting to be vague they're still making the situation obvious.

[D34th]

Dear Mr.D34th,

Thank you for lodging your case with the Chief Justice of the Cyberverse. After reviewing your case we regretfully inform you that the case has been dismissed.

The Chief Justice has deemed the case to be frivolous and as a result has awarded costs and damages of a total of 250 technology and $15 million for mental anguish and damage done to the reputation of the esteemed leader of the Siberian Tiger Alliance.

The full amount awarded is to be paid to the nation of Tygaland at your earliest convenience in consultation with the leader of this nation.

This ruling is binding under the Tygaland Act 2009 (pending).

King Regards,

Crown Prince Mishka of Tygaland

Supreme Chancellor of the Siberian Tiger Alliance

Chief Justice of the Cyberverse

Thanks for your wise and fair decision.

*Note to myself. Never ask again for justice to a n00b chief.

[janax]

One might even suspect that was the intent all along.

One more reason to not let it get that far.

[Kryievla]

So if you speak up about a perceived wrong, you are a 'mouth breather', 'drama queen', or are just trying to force a war by telling people about an upcoming war?

Good to know I guess.

[Vol Navy]

Speaking out against things is so 2008 Kryievla.

Now that the power structure has shifted it's not appreciated.

I'm certain the NPO is at fault for this entire situation anyway.

[Shurukian]

Seems mostly correct. However, I'm under the impression that Menotah mass recruited from Athens-DE, not just one message. Also, they were told ahead of time, that they would be attacked if they recruited from Athens-DE during the process.

If there was a mass recruit, wouldn't there be more than one screenshot? I know if I was in the situation, I would have asked all involved to screenshot it. Second, I've never preemptively told an alliance not to recruit from us. That seems silly. Should I go to all the alliances on Bob and say, "You better not recruit from us or I'll be mad!" I don't think that's very logical.

[Rafael Nadal]

If there was a mass recruit, wouldn't there be more than one screenshot? I know if I was in the situation, I would have asked all involved to screenshot it. Second, I've never preemptively told an alliance not to recruit from us. That seems silly. Should I go to all the alliances on Bob and say, "You better not recruit from us or I'll be mad!" I don't think that's very logical.

The alliance formed from members who left during the Athens-DE merger process. They were explicitly told not to recruit from Athens-DE. That is completely different than just going around willy-nilly and choosing random AA's, warning them not to recruit from you.

Also, several members of the new Athens left and joined Menotah after being in Athens for several days. Most of these nations have never checked the boards, and thus, aren't what you would call active members. Being that Menotah has not posted a DoE, the only ways to know about it is to either be active and know about its forming, or be pm'ed or otherwise contacted to join afterwards.

[BamaBuc]

The alliance formed from members who left during the Athens-DE merger process. They were explicitly told not to recruit from Athens-DE. That is completely different than just going around willy-nilly and choosing random AA's, warning them not to recruit from you.

Also, several members of the new Athens left and joined Menotah after being in Athens for several days. Most of these nations have never checked the boards, and thus, aren't what you would call active members. Being that Menotah has not posted a DoE, the only ways to know about it is to either be active and know about its forming, or be pm'ed or otherwise contacted to join afterwards.

Or maybe they just heard about some of their DE friends starting a new alliance and decided to join. If two friends are talking and one says "yeah, I'm starting a new alliance" an the other says "can I join", that's not recruiting. Friends talk, and often they stick together. If people leaving to join a breakoff with friends is evidence of recruiting, I can think of at least two alliances I could have rolled when I was TOOL HoFA. But that's not evidence. You shouldn't roll someone because you suspect they might have mentioned something to their friends about a new alliance.

-Bama

[Shurukian]

The alliance formed from members who left during the Athens-DE merger process. They were explicitly told not to recruit from Athens-DE. That is completely different than just going around willy-nilly and choosing random AA's, warning them not to recruit from you.

Also, several members of the new Athens left and joined Menotah after being in Athens for several days. Most of these nations have never checked the boards, and thus, aren't what you would call active members. Being that Menotah has not posted a DoE, the only ways to know about it is to either be active and know about its forming, or be pm'ed or otherwise contacted to join afterwards.

My alliance was formed out of a splinter, and we didn't feel the need to talk about that before hand. It's known that people will go where there friends are, so things need to be looked at much closer. Second, you're saying that most of the Menotah nations are inactive, and have no basis of politics, so why should the entire alliance suffer for something one person did? They won't even understand why they're being attacked, for god's sakes.

[Ejayrazz]

The person who did the recruiting...was this individual government?

[BamaBuc]

The person who did the recruiting...was this individual government?

No. He was recruitment director, which is not a government position.

-Bama

[magicninja]

Or maybe they just heard about some of their DE friends starting a new alliance and decided to join. If two friends are talking and one says "yeah, I'm starting a new alliance" an the other says "can I join", that's not recruiting. Friends talk, and often they stick together. If people leaving to join a breakoff with friends is evidence of recruiting, I can think of at least two alliances I could have rolled when I was TOOL HoFA. But that's not evidence. You shouldn't roll someone because you suspect they might have mentioned something to their friends about a new alliance.

-Bama

Haha of course they heard about it Bama.

The question is how did they hear about it?

I've let Athens and our common allies know how I feel about it.

[BamaBuc]

Haha of course they heard about it Bama.

The question is how did they hear about it?

I've let Athens and our common allies know how I feel about it.

But can anyone prove how they heard about it? No. Speculation is not a CB. Every breakoff alliance has people who, somehow or another, find out about it and join. But their former alliances usually don't go out for blood.

-Bama