Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Caliph]

What war do you think they started? Agreed that the wording isn't the best, but instead of shooting down the multiple people who have told you what the term means, why don't you tell us what you think it means?

How would he get his post dosage of denouncing Karma then?

[TehChron]

I did read it. That is part of the problem. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why you would even write what you did when you are considered, by fiat if nothing else, part of Karma? I do not believe my statement is stupid and false, but challenging the wisdom of the OP. Why do you profess leniency to an organization that A) has tried to destroy you in the past, and B) has vowed to destroy you in the future? (I believe you said "We are on top of your(NPO) hit list.") And, why do you still have a soft spot for them as "brothers" when you already have a group that are more "brothers" than the people you have a soft spot for ever were? That is what I question.

You should invest in a "Jump to Conclusions" mat, I bet you'd be a natural at it.

How does "Karma terms are hypocritical !@#$%^&*"

Become "Polar is gonna sell out STA and then become NPO bunk buddies"?

No, really. Explain this for me. It sounds very entertaining.

Seriously. How do you reach that conclusion?

Considering you dont understand why Grub would do it, surely you must have some other logical basis for believing why the OP is a comment in support of the NPO?

Surely. Please share it with us, so we may better understand your wisdom.

[BamaBuc]

Echelon started the "Echelon vs OV, VE, Athens, GR, R&R, RoK, MOON, Int, Orion, DiCE, IOTA, Avalanche, GOD, GUN and FOK War". I don't think they actually fought half of those alliances, but they declared war on them.

Heh, we still make fun of TBW here in CSN for his blanket DoW a year ago.

There was never such a war. When this all started, the Karma War was one big clusterfark, not a set of neatly organized fronts. Many alliances that Echelon fought were also fighting other people in the larger Karma War. Not until most of the Hegemony surrendered did we get these nice little fronts.

-Bama

[Lord Brendan]

You are the only one who considers him a part of Karma.

He makes valid points, points that you seem unable to respond to, so instead you attack motive and do some other crap.

The New Polar Order fought on the side of Karma, albeit on a minor front.

That makes two.

[BamaBuc]

What war do you think they started? Agreed that the wording isn't the best, but instead of shooting down the multiple people who have told you what the term means, why don't you tell us what you think it means?

Try as I might, I can only think of one possible meaning for "so-and-so started the war." And that is that so-and-so started the war. I really don't see how anyone could have gotten confused there.

-Bama

[Puppet Master]

A very well worded decree AlmightyGrub. It follows everything I have come to expect from you and I wish NpO a year of grace and stability.

To those who are attacking Grubs post, you are only hurting yourselves. It would be better for you if this post simply died so you could get back to shoveling the PR down our necks.

[TehChron]

The New Polar Order fought on the side of Karma, albeit on a minor front.

That makes two.

So did NSO.

Seriously, you fail due to the fact that you miss the actual accusation of the post.

Which is that Grub will betray STA due to some kind of bizarre obsession with NPOs approval.

[mortimier]

Well said!

o/ grub

o/ NpO

o/ fair terms???

[Minilla Island]

You are the only one who considers him a part of Karma.

He makes valid points, points that you seem unable to respond to, so instead you attack motive and do some other crap.

You can roll all the points into one ball: He does not like the terms offered to NPO.

Look, every Alliance in a war blathers and bleats, thumps their chests, trash talk, and trolls posts. They did it to us during GPW II, we did it back. Sure, Karma may be veering off the path a bit, who doesn't? This war is about addressing all the injustices that have been made against those in Bob for years. Pent up anger explodes, ask anyone who shot up a Post Office or a school. That is what you have here: Pent up anger exploding. There is no question there is BOTH revenge and justice being meted out. My question is why is Grub asking for leniency to an Alliance that has tried to destroy him, and vowed to destroy him in the future? That is what i cannot understand. If it is to become brothers again, I ask "Why?", especially when you have a group of people that actually ARE brothers who are more brothers than the Alliance he is trying to gain leniency for. Not an attack, but making a point.

[TehChron]

You can roll all the points into one ball: He does not like the terms offered to NPO.

Look, every Alliance in a war blathers and bleats, thumps their chests, trash talk, and trolls posts. They did it to us during GPW II, we did it back. Sure, Karma may be veering off the path a bit, who doesn't? This war is about addressing all the injustices that have been made against those in Bob for years. Pent up anger explodes, ask anyone who shot up a Post Office or a school. That is what you have here: Pent up anger exploding. There is no question there is BOTH revenge and justice being meted out. My question is why is Grub asking for leniency to an Alliance that has tried to destroy him, and vowed to destroy him in the future? That is what i cannot understand. If it is to become brothers again, I ask "Why?", especially when you have a group of people that actually ARE brothers who are more brothers than the Alliance he is trying to gain leniency for. Not an attack, but making a point.

But you're not making a point.

Youre making a straw man. No one said anything about Grub betraying STA except you in some kind of bid for attention. Then when you're called out on it by substantive points, you ignore the posts you actually cant wriggle your way out of.

You're pathetic. Really.

Grub isnt asking for mercy for NPO, hes asking for consistency and some degree of self-control from Karma. The entire post is about Karma and his view on the coalition, not NPO.

Once more, feel free to ignore this post since you cant actually rebut what im saying, but the fact of the matter is that you're just fishing for attention here, and making up straw men in some kind of half-baked attempt at character assassination. Frankly speaking, if you're gonna accuse someone of doing something, at least have some proof, otherwise, dont bother wasting everyone's time by having to read it. And yours for having contributed absolutely nothing to the conversation.

[Caliph]

Try as I might, I can only think of one possible meaning for "so-and-so started the war." And that is that so-and-so started the war. I really don't see how anyone could have gotten confused there.

-Bama

Perhaps a better wording might be "started war on that front", because I'm sure you realize that this war had multiple "fronts", in which different alliances banded together in a wartime coalition to fight certain alliances.

Echelon had a choice, to DOW or not to DOW. If they chose not to DOW, they would not be in this position now. I am sure many alliances would be looking for a chance to roll them, but they would not have been attacked this war.

Instead Echelon chose to DOW many alliances, including some whom they had a history of agression against, and bad history with. Echelon started their war against those alliances by their own actions.

The fact that you refuse to see this makes me think you are too blind in your hatred of Karma to have any useful opinion regarding this war.

[Kim Jaym Il]

You can roll all the points into one ball: He does not like the terms offered to NPO.

Look, every Alliance in a war blathers and bleats, thumps their chests, trash talk, and trolls posts. They did it to us during GPW II, we did it back. Sure, Karma may be veering off the path a bit, who doesn't? This war is about addressing all the injustices that have been made against those in Bob for years. Pent up anger explodes, ask anyone who shot up a Post Office or a school. That is what you have here: Pent up anger exploding. There is no question there is BOTH revenge and justice being meted out. My question is why is Grub asking for leniency to an Alliance that has tried to destroy him, and vowed to destroy him in the future? That is what i cannot understand. If it is to become brothers again, I ask "Why?", especially when you have a group of people that actually ARE brothers who are more brothers than the Alliance he is trying to gain leniency for. Not an attack, but making a point.

He has also noted his dislike for the Echelon terms; does that mean he wants to be friends with them too?

Ray, the point Grub is making has nothing to do with the NPO itself. It could be any alliance being offered the terms, NPO, UINE, Sparta, anyone. The issue Grub is bringing up is related to the terms themselves, not the alliance they're being offered to.

[Strudeldorf]

This war is about addressing all the injustices that have been made against those in Bob for years. Pent up anger explodes, ask anyone who shot up a Post Office or a school.

So, you would say you're the

? :v

[D34th]

You can roll all the points into one ball: He does not like the terms offered to NPO.

Look, every Alliance in a war blathers and bleats, thumps their chests, trash talk, and trolls posts. They did it to us during GPW II, we did it back. Sure, Karma may be veering off the path a bit, who doesn't? This war is about addressing all the injustices that have been made against those in Bob for years. Pent up anger explodes, ask anyone who shot up a Post Office or a school. That is what you have here: Pent up anger exploding. There is no question there is BOTH revenge and justice being meted out. My question is why is Grub asking for leniency to an Alliance that has tried to destroy him, and vowed to destroy him in the future? That is what i cannot understand. If it is to become brothers again, I ask "Why?", especially when you have a group of people that actually ARE brothers who are more brothers than the Alliance he is trying to gain leniency for. Not an attack, but making a point.

You are wong man, since your first post here, Grub never said that NpO couldn't survive without NPO and neither he said that was our destiny that we march as brothers, I dare you to prove that. What he said was in that moment the treaty was necessary just it. Now say where Grub said that he wants become NPO's best friend in this very thread? Please come back when you have idea of what you are talking about.

[Tygaland]

Perhaps a better wording might be "started war on that front", because I'm sure you realize that this war had multiple "fronts", in which different alliances banded together in a wartime coalition to fight certain alliances.

Echelon had a choice, to DOW or not to DOW. If they chose not to DOW, they would not be in this position now. I am sure many alliances would be looking for a chance to roll them, but they would not have been attacked this war.

Instead Echelon chose to DOW many alliances, including some whom they had a history of agression against, and bad history with. Echelon started their war against those alliances by their own actions.

The fact that you refuse to see this makes me think you are too blind in your hatred of Karma to have any useful opinion regarding this war.

You have to realise that a number of people shilling for Echelon now about being merely in a defensive war were the ones claiming the STA was in a war of aggression during the NoCB war to justify the terms handed down to us. The crucial, but often ignored, difference is that Echelon assisted their allies in a war their allies started. They are then, by definition, one of the aggressors regardless of what clauses they enacted to become involved. The STA, on the other hand, was attacked before we were involved in the NoCB war and then declared war in support of our allies who were attacked via heir protectorate to kick off the war itself.

But I'm sure the moral equivalence arguments will rage on regardless.

For the record, I don't like terms specifying people are removed from government or the alliance but I was told fairly early on my opinion on terms was not required so I'll say no more on the specifics.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Tygaland

[AlmightyGrub]

You can roll all the points into one ball: He does not like the terms offered to NPO.

Look, every Alliance in a war blathers and bleats, thumps their chests, trash talk, and trolls posts. They did it to us during GPW II, we did it back. Sure, Karma may be veering off the path a bit, who doesn't? This war is about addressing all the injustices that have been made against those in Bob for years. Pent up anger explodes, ask anyone who shot up a Post Office or a school. That is what you have here: Pent up anger exploding. There is no question there is BOTH revenge and justice being meted out. My question is why is Grub asking for leniency to an Alliance that has tried to destroy him, and vowed to destroy him in the future? That is what i cannot understand. If it is to become brothers again, I ask "Why?", especially when you have a group of people that actually ARE brothers who are more brothers than the Alliance he is trying to gain leniency for. Not an attack, but making a point.

Again I will refer you to the first post in the thread.

I will save you all the effort as thus. Polaris and Pacifica have irreconcilable differences. Our relationship as brothers is finished. Both sides have acknowledged that. When we signed Frostbite Moo indicated that we would never be entertained by the NPO again. I had previously made an extremely public statement to that effect in the cancellation of the treaty between us. We are finished, we are over and there will be no going back. So surrender that particular fantasy.

This thread is not about saving Pacifica, this thread is a social comment on the state of the community and the degree that self-regulation is now failing us as a community. This is not about sucking up to Pacifica, I have clearly stated they need to pay their terms, in fact increase them if you are so concerned. You are being blinded by the talk of propaganda and all the secondary personal insults. I have not suggested ever they should get light terms, white peace or even a piece of cake.

This is a simple enough concept for you to follow, the NPO is a vital part of the dynamic of this world, it is simple to dismiss them as villans when the reality is they have contributed much to the world. They too in counter balance have done things that they rightly deserve to be held accountable for. So hold them accountable but do so in a manner which allows the dynamic of this world to continue and de-escalates the spiraling costs of reps and of war in general. War is Peace, enjoy war, but leave your opponent alive to fight again another day... unless your fear is that great that you believe 600 isolated nations pose that much of a threat to you.

After all that is what you are really hiding behind now, 600 odd nations are going to rise up like a pheonix from the ashes and beat you all to death with their sheer will power and determination. Spare me.

They have been punished by isolation, they have been punished by decimation and reps will finish the job nicely. By deliberately being provocative with the terms in the current form you are not inspiring great confidence in many people not directly involved in your ''pulling the wings off the fly'' exercise you are now engaging in. The war is won, take your victory, take your spoils and get ready for the next one, but spare me all the ''they did this so we must smash their heads in'' crap. Dynamic misunderstanding of dynamics right there.

[Joe Stupid]

Grub, once again I'm honored to call you an ally.

o/ GRUB

o/ Polaris

[Minilla Island]

Grub, I thank you for the clarification. My hope for the future is renewed. Hail!

[JustinCox]

You can roll all the points into one ball: He does not like the terms offered to NPO.

Look, every Alliance in a war blathers and bleats, thumps their chests, trash talk, and trolls posts. They did it to us during GPW II, we did it back. Sure, Karma may be veering off the path a bit, who doesn't? This war is about addressing all the injustices that have been made against those in Bob for years. Pent up anger explodes, ask anyone who shot up a Post Office or a school. That is what you have here: Pent up anger exploding. There is no question there is BOTH revenge and justice being meted out. My question is why is Grub asking for leniency to an Alliance that has tried to destroy him, and vowed to destroy him in the future? That is what i cannot understand. If it is to become brothers again, I ask "Why?", especially when you have a group of people that actually ARE brothers who are more brothers than the Alliance he is trying to gain leniency for. Not an attack, but making a point.

Your demonstrating a particular informational selectiveness in your analysis of this situation. Below, I've bolded a few specifics from particular relevant segments of the Emperor's post which I'd recommend you read more carefully:

...

I have seen the terms offered to Pacifica, they are pathetic and spiteful. I do not care about your maths, your thought process or your justifications for the terms, they are wrong to the very core. There is no conceivable justification that promotes the sense of community regulation contained in those terms. They are designed to fracture, humiliate and destroy, they are not punishment they are simply a kick to the head of a man lying bleeding in the gutter.

I have no great love for Pacifica, I will never justify what they do or say in any way, but as someone who knows the process of surrendering in the face of overwhelming defeat, I can not in good conscience stand by and let this community effectively destroy yet another chunk of itself in the name of revenge.

On the the 4th of July 2008 Polaris undertook some hard lessons, we were called to account. One year later I am publicly calling Karma to account. Punish Pacifica if you must, but end the spiteful and vindictive nature of these terms. The community needs better from you, lead from the front. Remove the peace mode stipulations, achieve the punishment the same way Polaris was punished for our peace mode nations and end this senseless quest. Take their filthy money, take their filthy technology and take their surrender, watch them closely but cease with the quest to destroy them whether directly or by stealth.

...

Bearing this in mind, I think that your analysis of the Emperor's decree is a bit flawed. You've asserted in your post that the Emperor is demanding leniency in the peace terms offered to the Pacific. However, I don't think anybody here could argue that the terms we recieved following the Second Patriotic War (as we refer to it) were at all lenient. The final portion of the selections from the Emperor's post are emphasized to carry this point. There is a middle ground here. This force calling themselves Karma have been in argument over the peace terms following this war since the war began, but yet the individual alliances making up this coalition are selectively practicing leniency ranging from a white peace to light peace terms while others are attempting to issue peace terms which will yield nothing but a continuation of the powers the Pacific have had stripped away from them. The Emperor is asserting that the peace terms given should not aim to destroy the community of any alliance, the very actions which seem to have led to this point, but that they should aim to punish those alliances which have acted against this principle.

EDIT: I suppose Grub beat me to it.

Edited July 7, 2009 by JustinCox

[Caliph]

You have to realise that a number of people shilling for Echelon now about being merely in a defensive war were the ones claiming the STA was in a war of aggression during the NoCB war to justify the terms handed down to us. The crucial, but often ignored, difference is that Echelon assisted their allies in a war their allies started. They are then, by definition, one of the aggressors regardless of what clauses they enacted to become involved. The STA, on the other hand, was attacked before we were involved in the NoCB war and then declared war in support of our allies who were attacked via heir protectorate to kick off the war itself.

But I'm sure the moral equivalence arguments will rage on regardless.

So you are saying there are people here who change their story depending on how it benefits them the most, and don't stick to their principles?

I couldn't have said it better myself. Its funny how all these people are not anti Karma but were silent or even supportive of the "hegemony" when they similar actions.

For the record, I don't like terms specifying people are removed from government or the alliance but I was told fairly early on my opinion on terms was not required so I'll say no more on the specifics.

I can agree with you here, some terms I don't agree with, but as they were given by "hegemony" I see it as "karmic justice" to see them offered.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Grub;

Frankly, I don't understand you. Here was an Alliance that a) Had ordered the rolling of Polar, B) start a "trade bloc" in order to spit in your face, c) Which treated you like absolute $%^& when you put your hand out, d) which has vowed to destroy Polaris whenever it got the strength to do so.......and you CONTINUE to beg Karma to turn the other cheek? For what? To get in Moo's good graces again? To be "brothers" with Pacifica again? This was a slap in the face to your true "brothers", STA. Are you willing to put a bullseye on the back of STA so NPO/NpO can be brothers again? Tell me you are kidding, right? The last thing you want is an opportunity for Pacifica to rise again, for they see Polaris as Fredo in "The Godfather". You betrayed them, and when you are out getting Penguin his fish, they are going to put a bullet in your head.

You may not like it, but Polaris is part of Karma. Maybe not in word or deed, but by perception. You showed your brotherly love by not standing with your "brothers" when you cancelled/Suspended your treaty. From that point on, whether you like it or not, IN THE EYES OF THE PACIFICAN, you are part of Karma.

Get used to it.

Some would consider it simply being the bigger person.

Also, one does not have to be in the New Pacific Order to be Pacifican and this one has never considered Grub to be part of Karma.

[Tygaland]

So you are saying there are people here who change their story depending on how it benefits them the most, and don't stick to their principles?

I couldn't have said it better myself. Its funny how all these people are not anti Karma but were silent or even supportive of the "hegemony" when they similar actions.

Well, partly. I was more saying that some people will try and draw moral equivalence between certain events to justify their ever-changing viewpoint. Whereas others remain consistent in their views and are generally pilloried for it.

[Authur]

This is a simple enough concept for you to follow, the NPO is a vital part of the dynamic of this world, it is simple to dismiss them as villans when the reality is they have contributed much to the world. They too in counter balance have done things that they rightly deserve to be held accountable for. So hold them accountable but do so in a manner which allows the dynamic of this world to continue and de-escalates the spiraling costs of reps and of war in general. War is Peace, enjoy war, but leave your opponent alive to fight again another day... unless your fear is that great that you believe 600 isolated nations pose that much of a threat to you.

This is a sediment I expressed even before this war was a realistic possibility. We as a community need to stop imposing terms designed to cripple or destroy an alliances ability to succeed. Fear of reprisal should not be a factor in peace terms. Sadly it is and has been for far too long.

Karma needs to stop fearing a destroyed Pacifica, give them reasonable terms, and move on. Just end this already. Drag it out and the animosity will only grow.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Authur

[Caliph]

This is a sediment I expressed even before this war was a realistic possibility. We as a community need to stop imposing terms designed to cripple or destroy an alliances ability to succeed. Fear of reprisal should not be a factor in peace terms. Sadly it is and has been for far too long.

Karma needs to stop fearing a destroyed Pacifica, give them reasonable terms, and move on. Just end this already. Drag it out and the animosity will only grow.

What would you consider "reasonable" terms?

[wandmdave]

What's your point? GtG just admitted to actively working to undermine/destroy Q while Sparta was still a member of Q. The word honor is the last word that could ever be used to describe Sparta.

Thats what happens when you spy on an ally. They realize you werent actually a friend to begin with. Perhaps next time you should treat your allies like friends instead of like pawns and they'll stick by you.

Edited July 7, 2009 by wandmdave