Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[shahenshah]

Actually quite a few of those fighting aren't carrying the burden of change - the only change they wanted was a change in who was leading, not in the way business is done. I don't think this is true of MK, I think MK's motivations are good and I really do believe it when you say you're fighting for change. Some of the others who call themselves "Karma" however? They're the ones who haven't bothered washing Polar (and MK) blood off their hands, and are doing the same thing to former allies that they once did to us. That's what I'm talking about when I talk about a cycle of retribution and betrayal. There's another way, and I'd like to see people rise above this.

I didn't spend all those months in the resistance to see business as usual. The change I was fighting for, and what Vox Populi as a whole was fighting for, wasn't just a change in who gets to act like a vampire. What we were looking for was a change in the way we treated each other, and a breakup of consolidated power so no one could ever lord over others with exorbitant demands and capricious whims. At least the hegemony is broken, that's a plus. I look forward to the day when the modus operandi of the hegemony is also broken.

I remember you saying to Karma not having enough to get the job done and addressing their fears of how NPO will seek vengeance...I guess you have a hand in charming them more than the original intentions...but what can one do if he's as Handsome as ES?

Edited July 6, 2009 by shahenshah

[Prime minister Johns]

OOC: oops double post.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Prime minister Johns

[Starfox101]

There is a marked difference between ''light'' and ''reasonable''.

What exactly did you call? Whatever is was is not Frostbites agenda my friend nor will it be.

I called Frostbite inevitably sticking up for Pacifica, and in the aftermath of the war, allying with Pacifica, who will be looked at as going back to it's old roots.

We'll just have to wait and see where it goes.

[Caliph]

Thats because it attempts to remove your guilt for the crimes you and your bloc committed in the karma war. You are the hegemony now and you are crushing all potential future opposition, handing out draconian terms and banning people from serving in the governments of other alliances. I love the way you guys are still trying to blame the name of your bloc for the crimes you are committing like its out of your hands.

You do realize by spouting the party line word for word that won't make us believe it, right?

[shahenshah]

Countless white peaces and light terms for alliances that deserved far worse is obviously a "much worse regime." Please spare me and come back when people are EZIed, forums are taken over, and dictatorships are forced on alliances, ok?

With highest reps ever and crippling conditions, it kinds of compensates for the lack of other forms of oppressions.

Edited July 6, 2009 by shahenshah

[WarriorConcept]

No, these are the first steps along that path, it is best correct these errors at an early stage.

I would rather not wait until people are EZIed and forums are taken over and dictators are forced on other alliances.

After all an ounce of prevention is better than a ton of cure.

A better world is our responsibility and we must ensure that the sins of the past regime are not allowed to be repeated with our silent consent.

No, they're not the first steps. This stuff won't be happening and if you want you can ask every single Karma leader yourself to find out. Stop trying to play the oracle here please, you can't predict the future.

The better world is being brought about because of this war, just because some of you won't get your hands dirty in order to completely fulfill it does not give you any moral superiority. This is the most change the planet has seen in years, and seldom any of those since are being "repeated." When they are then you'll have an argument, otherwise you really are speaking with no factual backing.

[Trinite]

I would go farther than this. I don't think it's a coincidence that NPO members have been referring to the possibility of a Karma civil war for the past week. And then, just a few days ago, we have NSO members sending out recruitment letters to neutral alliances. Do we perhaps have a few NPO sympathizers within the NSO, who were trying to drum up a convenient civil war on the NPO's behalf? And no sooner does it become clear that a civil war is not going to happen, then we have AlmightyGrub no less, entering the PR battle on the NPO's behalf. Is he truly acting on his own initiative, or could it be that even within the NpO there are still NPO sympathizers?

Posts like this look strikingly like Hegemony posts made several months prior to the war. I really hope alliances in karma don't start taking actions against shadows until they become real. Paranoia is another Pacifican legacy I would like to see behind us.

I came late to the party, so I won't rehash old arguments. People make a lot of incorrect assumptions about Sparta, but this isn't really the thread for it.

Problem with all of this debate on the OWF is that now any reduction in terms will look like a PR victory for NPO. This makes said reduction far less likely, which is unfortunate. This public spectacle makes it far more difficult for those fighting NPO who think the terms too harsh to make any arguments on their behalf.

[Duncan King]

Karma is not a new hegemony nor is it a unified front other than in its conflict with the NPO and her allies. As such, comments like these are misguided and misleading.

Then why were people claiming to be the Voice of Karma, etc. and having inquiries directed to them?

If you find terms harsh, then complain to those who determined and signed them. Pointing fingers at this amorphous entity named Karma is pointless. We all knew from the outset that many in Karma held differing views but the one common thread was that they were tired of NPO aggression.

Many parts of Echelon and NPO's peace terms were non-negotiable when they were originally offered and were set by those with axes to grind for their own personal reasons. When faced with terms that were non-negotiable, the choice is to accept or continue fighting (resulting in your alliance being further weakened and making the same peace terms even more difficult to pay).

The tech threshold for who is able to assist in paying reparations is a new term that I hope is never repeated. Not because it's damaging (which it is, that's why it's there), but because it divides the alliance into who can pay and who cannot. Reparations can be a team building exercise for an alliance because everyone pays their small amount. A term like this divides who can pay and who cannot and may well degrade the community of the paying alliance.

[WarriorConcept]

With highest reps ever and crippling conditions, it kinds of compensates for the lack of other forms of oppressions...and frankly, the political norms at present will not even allow an alliance with absolute power to carry out the terms you are saying. Those are compensated with other forms that as seen here are also on the edge of acceptibility by wider audience.

Yes, for one alliance that was the main perpetrator of all the "sins" which you've been ranting on about. You know what's amazing about this new political landscape, the fact that really no absolute power can carry out the terms I'm saying so I agree with you there. That's the point of this whole change and you're blissfully ignoring that fact.

I wonder where you were when the hegemony was committing all these sins, actually I know you were there supporting them.

[astronaut jones]

Actually, I think there is a crap load of NS around BOB that thinks exactly the same way, I would remind Karma what happened the last time the powers to be started spewing "do something about it"

True, the whole "do something about it" crap is just plain dumb, because it's not a show of toughness, it's people hiding behind their allies. And that's pretty much what happened last time around, anyway, and people finally got fed up with it.

[baseballer790]

o/ Polaris

[shahenshah]

Yes, for one alliance that was the main perpetrator of all the "sins" which you've been ranting on about. You know what's amazing about this new political landscape, the fact that really no absolute power can carry out the terms I'm saying so I agree with you there. That's the point of this whole change and you're blissfully ignoring that fact.

I wonder where you were when the hegemony was committing all these sins, actually I know you were there supporting them.

I cannot recall IRON having directly offer such terms to anyone, our latest was white peace year before Karma. We've paid more than enough the price for being silent partners when these things occurred, but then, if that crime was the criteria, you would not stand and fight beside many today. Nonetheless, Did I support these actions? No, Did I knew about such actions? Frankly, I wasnt quite active in world affairs and so for that ignorance and for failing to raise my voice, my nation went from 7k infra to 60. Common sense dictates I wont simply sit silent when such crimes in different degrees or forms are repeated. You can choose to believe it or you cant. I don't care. Anyway, yesterday is gone, but today you're the one supporting harsh terms and I am the one opposing them.

Edited July 6, 2009 by shahenshah

[Zangmonkey]

I do have a bit of ambivalence regarding the anniversary that is being noted - not exactly the high point of my time here, and not exactly a high point for the alliance I spent years leading. Grub took over at a really bad time, and led Polaris through its darkest hours since the Great Patriotic War. Their resurgence as a world power is indeed a credit to his brilliant leadership. He is certainly the right man for the job, and he's taken Polaris to places that I likely would have been unable to. Those of you who are upset with his frank words regarding the recent Echelon terms need to remember that 11 months ago it was Polaris on the receiving end of terms like these. Grub has very wisely found the third way - a break with the cycle of retribution and betrayal that has fueled conflict for the past couple years.

After reading your post I checked the CN Wiki regarding Polar's terms. My recollection was that the terms were lighter and that some alliances had given white peace and that we had paid full price for our tech (which we did because Gremlins and Polaris could benefit from the organized trade).

So it occurred to me when reading the wiki....

I am unable to find the official terms listed for the war.

This is interesting because it opens an avenue for revisionist history. I'm not accusing Polar of anything because I am certain that the majority of war entries do not list the terms; but we're all guilty of not keeping adequate records of the past; how can we ever hope to remember it and learn from it?

[Heracles the Great]

Precisely. A movement that was promoted as being better than the previous regime turned out to be much much worse. Just because something is mathematically possible doesn't mean it should be done.

Hahaha - I must have missed the multiple EZI's and imposed Viceroys - I do hope this was sarcasm that I whiffed on

[Bill Wallace]

I'd like to take a moment and clarify a few things for the sake of historical context -

I was a member of the Viridian Entente for the first part of this war. I destroyed my nation for Karma, first fighting against the MCXA chancellors and Minister of Finance who swooped down and took the opportunity to attack me alone (VE had overdeployed on Pacifica at that point, and was getting hit hard by MCXA.)

What? We had kept a considerable force in reserve for the inevitable counter attack by NPO's allies. I know because I was one of those in reserve. Hit hard by MCXA? You're kidding me right? No offense to MCXA because there were some in that alliance that fought well, but come on! Hit hard? MCXA was decimated and it was because of the buzz saw known as VE and her allies.

I then went on to fight numerous Pacificans, so many I literally lost count. I fought Moo, Mary, Bilrow and others, and personally ZIed Moo and Bilrow.

You weren't the only one fighting and you didn't ZI anyone by yourself. One would think after reading this that you were a member of the 300 with no support. Give me a break.

I believed I was fighting on the moral side of the war, for justice, and honour, and other values I hold dear.

The tone here is crap. You were fighting for justice and honor! Since you now don't believe so, you must now think VE is dishonorable. Right? Your attempt at self promotion is a slap in the face to all of us who've completely given our nations to defend our allies against NPO aggression.

VE didn't give me the impression that they were upholding the morals I had valued for so long, and neither did Karma as a whole.

What are your morals? What did we do to give the the impression that we are immoral? Accusing VE of being immoral is ludicrous. VE is so damn moral and honorable, I sometimes I want to puke because of it.

This was demonstrated when on the VE boards, they claimed that they would be happy to give terms to NPO, if NPO would merely come and negotiate with them about it.

Again, what are you talking about? I don't remember anything remotely relating to what you are saying. If anything, the discussion amongst the general membership was what reparations should be/shouldn't be or should we just offer white piece. And that was at the very start of the war. In fact, VE government's stance was "the war just started and we haven't won anything yet so just worry about winning this thing." There was never any discussion on being "happy to give terms...if NPO would merely come and negotiate".

NPO did so, but VE refused to give terms on the basis that Karma collectively needed to decide on them, and not individual Karma alliances. Because Karma lacks an overall leader or co-ordinator, this gave them the excuse to continue the war indefinitely.

So you're saying VE should give terms separately from it's allies who are also fighting NPO and leave them in the lurch? Come on Fran, you know as well as everyone who's reading this that this isn't going to happen. Your attempt at spin is atrocious.

Then terms were finally given, and I felt sick to the core. They were the opposite of what I had fought for- I had fought for change, for a world that would enable the largest number of people to have fun, for a moral world. Therefore, I left VE the same night. Many of them did not understand, and I was briefly placed on VE's ZI list. After extensive negotiations with their Lord, I was asked to pay 12m and 100 tech instead of a ZI (which wouldn't have meant much at that point, as I had just taken two more Pacifican nukes and was only at 200 infra.)

I'm not familiar with the details of this, but you left in the middle of a war and many considered this desertion. Heck, let's call a spade a spade, you're a deserter. I'm not sure what your endgame is, but how anyone could trust you at this point would be beyond me. Your attempt to smear VE is laughable. I must not forget to tip my waitress.

To Grub -

You seem like a good guy and I have nothing but respect for what you and your fellow mates have accomplished in the last year. I mean, you guys are writing the book on how an alliance should operate. I'm in awe.

In fact Grub, from what I've seen of your posts, you remind me of Cornelius in the way you go about your business. That's as big a compliment as I can give to anyone and I hope you take it as such.

But, I disagree with you here. You've made a good argument and have no doubt convinced many. The problem is you're comparing apples to oranges and you're doing it from the sidelines in regards to Karma's war against NPO. The alliances that have been fighting on the NPO front will decide what happens and no one else.

When this is over, Karma will disband and we will each go our own way. In the end Polaris will be one of two or three alliances that will benefit the most from the Karma War. You've said your piece. Now let us do what we have to do.

[WarriorConcept]

I cannot recall IRON having directly offer such terms to anyone, our latest was white peace year before Karma. We've paid more than enough the price for being silent partners when these things occurred, Did I support these actions? No, Did I knew about such actions? Frankly, I wasnt quite active in world affairs and so for that ignorance and for failing to raise my voice, my nation went from 7k infra to 60. Common sense dictates I wont simply sit silent when such crimes in different degrees or forms are repeated. You can choose to believe it or you cant. I don't care. Anyway, yesterday is gone, but today you're the one supporting harsh terms and I am the one opposing them.

Today the final acts of the change that countless nations for are almost done and the new political landscape and world at large won't stand for anything harsh anymore, as you yourself admitted that no one has the power to do it anymore.

[Innerspeaker]

As a member of Polaris, I have the highest respect for Almighty Grub, along with every emperor that lead us beforehand. But I simply don't agree with much of what he has said. :/ I completely understand the rhetoric, of course, and I absolutely can associate with what he says, but from a logical standpoint, rather than a moral one, I cannot agree with his words regarding Karma.

It's my opinion that Karma has been overglorified not only by its insane and super-effective propaganda, but also by every member of the CN community reading too far into and essentially associating the reighteousness of select few Karma alliances with teh rest of them. This was never a game-changing event, merely the result of somebody unplugging the haterade and letting it spill. This was revenge in its purest form, and anybody who has this strange delusion that revenge is wrong or unjustified is just... well, delusional. This war was as justified as every war in history, and by that I mean that no justification was needed, but an ungodly amount was supplied anyways.

People here seem to underestimate the speed with which the alliances in CN will turn into wild animals. When the chips are down, when mhawk is "rolling the hard six" for example, it would foolish not to assume that the hegemony's arrogance and strength would be met with an entire sphere of CN going berserk. For that very reason, one could merely use logic to assume that this war was engineered to kill the NPO. Echelon stepped in front of the steamroller, and was subsequently steamrolled. And for getting in the way of the Karma machine, and !@#$%*ing about it no less, Echelon was hit with the hardest terms it could manage. The other alliances smart enough to save their own asses got out early (like GGA and Valhalla) and those with whom Karma had a bone to pick, like MCXA, were smacked with some reps of their own. And IRON, which failed to escape the steamroller unharmed, was hit with hard reps. Simple logic, really.

NPO knows what's coming. And yet they have completely failed to even play up a "we've changed" motif, unlike Polaris who actually underwent one. The NPO then went on to !@#$%* and moan in public about their "unfair" reps. Yet it is my opinion that these reps are simply the most logical reparations applied in history. The main Leag- I mean, Karma alliances responsible for the terms are, I'm sure, cautious as to how they will deal with a vengeful (once again) NPO in the future. They aren't going to make the same mistake this time. It's a natural response to a big $@! monster that simply won't die, and remembers your name and address (regardless of whether or not you change it). Cripple it and send it to the hospital for as long as possible. Which is why I can't say I disagree with the NPO getting ridiculous terms, from the most rational and logical standpoint.

And I find it amusingly ironic that most of the members hailing this thread are from alliances that Grub directly called out for taking advantage of the situation and flip-flopping off the Hegemony frying pan. TSO and TOP are the big ones here, both of whom were essentially NPO's right and left hand (TSO being the fingers of the MCXA hand before they bailed on their sinking ship).

Edited July 6, 2009 by Gairyuki

[Brotherington]

Everyone can have their new era of fairness after the criminals who have pushed the bounds of cruelty for the last 3 years have been adequatly crippled. I for one and grateful towards the alliances who are shouldering the burden of seeing the job through to the end.

[KingSuck]

probably the best OP i've ever read on the OWF.

o/ Grub

o/ Polaris

[Grinder]

What has Pacifica done to be treated so well, when they won't even accept their punishment?

As someone who felt their wrath for years, I feel your stance on letting Pacifica off so easily is wrong. They haven't changed at all. They need to pay, and maybe then they will change. I've still never received an apology from even the lowest of the low on the Pacifican heirarchy for over 2 years of EZI.

Anyway, I called this when Frostbite formed. I feel smart now.

And thus why TSO always made sure to specify that we are not part of Karma, and are just Oblivion, there because of a treaty to the only ones that had the guts to stand up for us...

We'd have to be crazy not to take an opportunity to learn from others' mistakes without making the same ones ourselves. Look at your own bitterness and how much it has fueled and dominated every motivation you've had in this game since then. And you still don't see why it is important to NOT show them better treatment? You're praising the idea of unleashing 650 individuals as motivated and active back on this world all still operating in one of the best organized groups this world has ever seen.

If for no other reason to avoid an even harsher backlash to your own revenge, it's only logical to beat them, and leave it at that, and not turn into the thing you've been lusting to kill. If you really think you're so much better than them by virtue of the way they treat their enemies, prove it by showing them how they should do it.

Leading by example is the mark of true strength and character, not waging war with a "NO U" mentality.

[Heracles the Great]

It is amusing to see some of the same people who were shouting down TOP and TSO for leaving the Echelon front...for the same reasons, now praising Almighty Grub's words however.

How soon people forget.

You noticed that too? Haha

[King Srqt]

Precisely. A movement that was promoted as being better than the previous regime turned out to be much much worse. Just because something is mathematically possible doesn't mean it should be done.

No, they are not even close to worse, just not nearly as good as they should be.

[Affluenza]

I dunno, I think the guy who led an alliance through the fastest post-war recovery in the history of the game to the point that both coalitions in the very next major military conflict wanted them active on their side could be said to have done something pretty good.

But then again I regularly go home drunk with fat chicks so maybe my standards are screwed?

He has led NpO's revival really well...but shaping Bob and progressing an alliance are poles apart...

Which was my original point...making public statements will not change anything. If Grub wants to see what he has spoken of he must put his alliance in the front lines and be heading change not calling for change but getting the cogs in motion...until then as I said he can join the long line of complainers and moaners which has always and will always exist. The current political climate is not unique.

[cookavich]

After reading your post I checked the CN Wiki regarding Polar's terms. My recollection was that the terms were lighter and that some alliances had given white peace and that we had paid full price for our tech (which we did because Gremlins and Polaris could benefit from the organized trade).

So it occurred to me when reading the wiki....

I am unable to find the official terms listed for the war.

This is interesting because it opens an avenue for revisionist history. I'm not accusing Polar of anything because I am certain that the majority of war entries do not list the terms; but we're all guilty of not keeping adequate records of the past; how can we ever hope to remember it and learn from it?

Here are the terms you're looking for.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=34051

[Drostan]

Then why were people claiming to be the Voice of Karma, etc. and having inquiries directed to them?

Many parts of Echelon and NPO's peace terms were non-negotiable when they were originally offered and were set by those with axes to grind for their own personal reasons. When faced with terms that were non-negotiable, the choice is to accept or continue fighting (resulting in your alliance being further weakened and making the same peace terms even more difficult to pay).

The tech threshold for who is able to assist in paying reparations is a new term that I hope is never repeated. Not because it's damaging (which it is, that's why it's there), but because it divides the alliance into who can pay and who cannot. Reparations can be a team building exercise for an alliance because everyone pays their small amount. A term like this divides who can pay and who cannot and may well degrade the community of the paying alliance.

Who claims to be the voice of Karma? Who claims to handle all the public relations of Karma? I guess I missed those memos.

What specific elements of the NPO surrender terms were non-negotiable? And what does it mean for something to be non-negotiable? It is my opinion that nothing is truly non-negotiable. You start by discussing what is on the table and as talks open up you get to suggest that what is/is not on the table should change. But that step only happens when you take the first ones. As I said before, Londo is not a partisan and vengeful person. I believe he would even have advocated on NPO's behalf in matters that he felt were just and thus the argument of "non-negotiable" terms seems a deception. How do you know what terms were not negotiable? It sounds to me like a large assumption is being made to rationalize NPO's paltry attempts at negotiation.

I support reopening surrender talks but that motion must come from NPO's side and efforts.

As for Echelon's terms, I have said before that there is much I disagree with but I had no call in determing those terms. Therefore, you are addressing yourself to the converted. If I had an issue with the terms I would direct my outrage at the signatories.

As for Trinite's post, though I do agree that we should ease into the situation, concerns over Frost Bite's posturing are not entirely unfounded. But I agree that they should be considered as such: as concerns. The example you draw, that of NPO's suspicions of being attacked and overthrown, are perhaps not the best as that is indeed what happened. The difference is circumstance. While I think it is premature to imagine that Frost Bite is planning an attack I also think that alliances should be mindful of the aggressive moves made by members of that bloc and the weight they have been throwing around. The comments made by several NPO members in this thread also invite some scrutiny.

I don't fear any sort of pre-emptive strike on the part of Karma (whoever those parties might be) because once again... KARMA IS NOT A BLOC. Not everyone decided that they were going to join 'Karma', rather that was the name given to one side of a war. Instead of paranoia I invite suspicion because this is a world of ambition and Frost Bite has been looking mighty ambitious lately. I do not disagree with all that Grub has said but it is the tone of recent FB-related discussions that awakens the fear of opportunism in me. And I think rightfully.

Your point is taken well though, Trinite. That in flaring this discussion up publically, it makes it harder for those offering terms to soften them as it would be like conceding some of their victory back to the NPO. Much like Sal Paradise's comments earlier, I simply wish to remind the people of Planet Bob that they are well-served to be suspicious of anyone claiming to be the saviours of our planet.