Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Desperado]

Before we became allies to Pacifica and her friends we were a major target on her list. We were never an alliance that demanded high reps from anyone and we always treated our opponents with civility and, as best we could, a decent sense of humor. Even now we have not asked a damn thing in the way of reps from the order.

Forced an alliance off a color sphere and directly caused disbandment (in your own definition of 'cause' not mine).

[WarriorConcept]

I get the terms were light.

I am implying they were to isolate the NPO and whoever remained. Sustaining an enternal war against 700 nations is easier than one against 1500-2100 nations.

Well duh, NPO was the one who started it.

I should fix my post:

The Battle for "How much we can humiliate,degrade,violate the sovereignty, and destroy our enemies" has just begun.

Yup get back to me when Karma starts EZIing, forcing out of government, take over forums, and installs a viceroy. Until then you're full of hot air.

[youwish959]

I'm sorry that we were ever the NPO's side, but 95% of that time was before I even created my nation, and none of it was during my tenure in our government (As in actively supporting them in war).

Sparta had been on the "karma" side of this war for months before it even happened, back when the war looked like it was going to be dead even (More NS on the Hegemony side, but more nukes on the Karma side). Our government and scope as an alliance has changed quite a bit, much like the government and scope of the New Polar Order has. I guess they have a patent on change, though, and no one else is allowed to do so. Shucks. :\

Edit: Clarification

Wait, so you can use the excuse "I wasn't here for that, but mhawk can't?" Yeah... right.

So basically you admit you broke the non aggression and intelligence clauses of Continuum?

To those of you saying that the NPO will rise again and come back for the Karma alliances, are you all saying that the Karma alliances are so incompetent that they cannot defend themselves? Even after all the time they would have to prepare?

Edited July 6, 2009 by youwish959

[Heft]

The fact that so many people are fighting them shows that people dont fear NPO as they used to.

Many people I talk to have zero fear of NPO and have said they will openly raid the red team with or without a NPO doctrine.

People fear a repeat of history. Weve seen what happens when NPO gets off easy. That mistake wont happen twice.

People fear the NPO rising up from the ashes and exacting revenge. They are right to expect the NPO to make a come back. But the idea that they must cripple the NPO as much as possible or else we're all doomed!!!! is nothing more than political fear-mongering. Quite frankly, it's an open question of whether or not the NPO is capable of staging anything near what happened after GWI, both because of how the NPO has changed since then and, perhaps more obviously, how the rest of the world has changed since then.

See here's the problem with that. You assume that if we don't keep them down, they'll just ruin things for other people.

Tell me, why should I spare them at all then?

Actually I don't think I made that assumption anywhere at all. I do assume they will attempt to strike back at some point, but again, whether they will or can "ruin things" (what is this, \m/?) is an open question, and I don't think it's necessary to refuse to spare them at all.

Oh I'm sure LUE, ONOS, GATO, Legion, GPA, and the others just rolled over and let it happen As I recall there was another war about it in which NPO defied all odds to come back and take them out again. I respect NPO I know how smart and tough they are and personally I don't wan them steam-rolling CnG or anyone again for quite some time. Seeing Heft how you haven't been on that nice side of NPO but right there holding there hand while stomping on small alliances I think your missing some of the perspective on this. Ditto to all the self-righteous Citadel members who for so long sat around and did NOTHING while CnG and BLEU were stomped into the ground... or GATO....or GPA.... OR IAA.... or CIS.... or VE..... The List goes on and on and on.

That's a pretty terrible line up of examples you've got there in that first sentence. An alliance bored with the game and surrounded with incompetent allies, an alliance caught running a long running spy operation and subsequently abandoned, and a neutral alliance with a number of inactive government and woefully unprepared for war and lacking any allies or support due to their neutrality. The only two examples there that are helpful to your cause are GATO and Legion. And the only reason the NPO got away with so much with those two was because everyone let them.

So unless you're of the belief that the NPO are actually an elite team of hypnotists, it seems unreasonable to credit them with the ability to magically sway the entire cyberverse back to their side while they pick off alliances one at a time. Quite frankly, if everyone is that stupid, it doesn't matter what terms you give them and you might as well just lay down now.

[Israfeel]

Your moral high ground has sunk.

Argue as much as you like but you gained supporters by spewing righteous rhetoric and you turn around and put to use the same tactics you were preaching against.

[Sir Paul]

Keep trying to act cute though

Actually, that's currently Echelon's job, unless the NPO surrender terms have been amended.

[kevin32891]

As always Grub you write a great speech.

o/ Grub

o/ Polaris

[Francesca]

I thought this was one of the most amazing announcements in our time. Well worth the read.

I was a member of the Viridian Entente for the first part of this war. I destroyed my nation for Karma, first fighting against the MCXA chancellors and Minister of Finance who swooped down and took the opportunity to attack me alone (VE had overdeployed on Pacifica at that point, and was getting hit hard by MCXA.) I then went on to fight numerous Pacificans, so many I literally lost count. I fought Moo, Mary, Bilrow and others, and personally ZIed Moo and Bilrow. I believed I was fighting on the moral side of the war, for justice, and honour, and other values I hold dear.

Gradually I began to wonder, though, if Karma was really fighting ethically. VE didn't give me the impression that they were upholding the morals I had valued for so long, and neither did Karma as a whole. This was demonstrated when on the VE boards, they claimed that they would be happy to give terms to NPO, if NPO would merely come and negotiate with them about it. NPO did so, but VE refused to give terms on the basis that Karma collectively needed to decide on them, and not individual Karma alliances. Because Karma lacks an overall leader or co-ordinator, this gave them the excuse to continue the war indefinitely. I was more than a little upset at the idea, because I was a Voxian, and I fought against NPO because they condoned things like eternal war.

Then terms were finally given, and I felt sick to the core. They were the opposite of what I had fought for- I had fought for change, for a world that would enable the largest number of people to have fun, for a moral world. Therefore, I left VE the same night. Many of them did not understand, and I was briefly placed on VE's ZI list. After extensive negotiations with their Lord, I was asked to pay 12m and 100 tech instead of a ZI (which wouldn't have meant much at that point, as I had just taken two more Pacifican nukes and was only at 200 infra.)

This announcement by Polar puts into words that which I could not previously express effectively. I wholeheartedly agree with it.

Hail Polaris.

[Spock]

Just a friendly reminder to all to at least put OOC tags around the words "the game" or to attempt to try to not use those words in an IC context. Thanks!

(you just lost it)

[Caliph]

If you cripple them beyond recognition, then you're just doing what they did to you. Then you're not breaking the cycle, you're helping create it just again. If Karma is going to set out with the goal to change CN, it isn't going to come from giving the same terms NPO gave other people. Then you're just helping contribute to the problem. It is the same thing just with a different mask.

Punish NPO if you must, but don't do it with such beyond things that destroy them completely. If you want change, then bring it but don't bring it as revenge gift wrapped up as sugary sweet named Karma when it is just the same thing by another name. I've seen Karma start out with the original goals but as time went on, more and more fell off the track and it is divided now. How is that help anyone reach their goal of changing anything?

No one denies NPO hasn't done things in the past but the argument is if you're doing the same things, how does that make you any better?

Grub said what I think better than I ever could. I do hope his words at least cause some to pause to and think at least, if not to have an effect.

Karma has broken the cycle, in that only a few alliances are receiving harsh terms.

Most the alliance on Hegemonies side this war have received white peace. In all the wars the NPO has fought, never has there been such a proportion of white peace for the enemy to terms for the enemy, much less harsh terms.

Only those who are perceived to have done wrongs are getting punished.

Some people learn their lessons. When Polaris got stomped a year ago they were taking steps to change. NPO has taken no such steps. The Imperial officers have remained the same, no call for regime change by Karma. When Polaris got beat down, terms for peace included members were to be expelled and never again allowed into Polaris. Part of the secret terms. The terms for NPO don't include any of that, and are purely IC terms. No expulsions, no forced government regime changes, no viceroys, simply tech and cash.

While I agree that some aspects of the terms are not needed and would have to be reworded to achieve a quicker peace, I see the reasoning behind them.

[scythegfx]

I agree with you 100% on this Grub. Respect and admiration are all for you.

[Voodoo Nova]

Yup get back to me when Karma starts EZIing, forcing out of government, take over forums, and installs a viceroy. Until then you're full of hot air.

To be fair, those fighting Echelon did ban Caffine from Echelon government as a part of their terms.

[Tygaland]

Tyga will most certainly chew me out for this, but I am forced to quote Tyga's Law at you. "The frequency of an alliance member's whining is inversely proportional to the contribution they make to their alliance."

I'm more shocked anyone had actually read my law.

[Earogema]

Actually I don't think I made that assumption anywhere at all. I do assume they will attempt to strike back at some point, but again, whether they will or can "ruin things" (what is this, \m/?) is an open question, and I don't think it's necessary to refuse to spare them at all.

See, you said that they'll revert to their old ways "Only if we let them."

This implies that they will not change, and that they only way to prevent them from acting up again is if we continue to keep them down.

[WarriorConcept]

I highly doubt anything we do will appease you

You'd be surprised.

As the author of the "Poll: New Home Page" that Muffasamini refers to, I can tell you that there have been a series of topics on the NPO forums regarding our changed position in the world, a self-examination that is attempting to explore our past wrongs (that I, as a member from December 08, had nothing to do with) and chart a course for a different future. I doubt that TWiP would care to report on such a topic, mundane as it may be in this world of warfare.

Also, I doubt any of our apologies would make much of a difference. Who will judge its "sincerity"? Who will judge "all [we've] done wrong in the past"? My Emperor apologized for past wrongs in the surrender thread and it was mocked and derided. All attempts in good faith are rebuffed (by a small minority, I hope). Still, I hope CN knows that the hearts of many Pacificans are changed, and we are the heart of the NPO.

The TWiP comment I made was a snag at the fact that none of us outside of NPO know any of the internal topics, posts, or anything of the like on the NPO forums.

Just as most of the world once hated NpO and come to love and respect them, the same can happen for NPO as well. They just need to do what needs to be done just like NpO did. If they want to change, ball is in their court.

[enderland]

I disagree. Any apology from the New Pacific Order would be a transparent PR stunt done to get sympathy, just like the whole Moldavi Doctrine thing. The best apology the NPO could do would be to disband and delete their nations.

That's the problem when you have fully destroyed your credibility, eh?

[Zangmonkey]

The idea that somehow harsh reps will keep the NPO from re-oppressing the planet is deeply and hilariously flawed. That folks use it are lying through their teeth.

I agree with the Sith here.

Furthermore, I contend that the logical participant doesn't see any dilemma.

If you do seek a more harmonious world then terms, when offered, should be designed to promote rebuilding with the principles in which you believe. In this case, Karma claimed to believe in things like justice and balance.

If you crush your opponent and extend no hand for guidance then they will certainly strive to subvert and harm you in the future. If they have no armies they will set others against you, if you squelch them in public they will work exclusively in the shadows. The system is self-perpetuating.

However, if you levy an appropriate, just, and balanced punishment and then offer support and guidance towards more synergistic goals the cyberverse is the better.

Certainly there are vipers among your enemies, but they will bite regardless of how you behave. The optimal outcome is to encourage friendship and cooperation thus separating the citizens from the serpents.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Matthew PK

[Elendil old]

If that's your attempt at sattire, it's not very good but rather reminds us of the same attitude you've had for a while, and doesn't make it seem as if you've had any change of heart whatsoever.

Keep trying to act cute though

You know it would be regarded as such.

[Matthew Conrad]

Wait, so you can use the excuse "I wasn't here for that, but mhawk can't?" Yeah... right.

So basically you admit you broke the non aggression and intelligence clauses of Continuum?

To those of you saying that the NPO will rise again and come back for the Karma alliances, are you all saying that the Karma alliances are so incompetent that they cannot defend themselves? Even after all the time they would have to prepare?

Yes, we broke the non aggression clause without actually being in Q. As GtG said, we didn't lie. We had been disparaged but we hadn't decided to leave until it got to a breaking point months previous.

[Master-Debater]

You're completely missing the point of the post.

The idea that somehow harsh reps will keep the NPO from re-oppressing the planet is deeply and hilariously flawed. That folks use it are lying through their teeth. At least you're honest about your motivations, rather than using a false moral directive to justify them like most of Karma does.

So you’re really going to argue that if NPO got off on light terms they would not re arm and attempt to get back at people for old grudges?

Have you seen what has happened over the past few years? At all? Need a list of former NPO enemies that were attacked by the NPO on trumped up claims? What about former allies? Neutrals?

[Heft]

What actions do we condone? Punishment on a party that is actually guilty? You're absolutely correct. If we wanted to stand up to something else, we would. We don't disagree with the terms the NPO has been given, and as such, we're not going to disagree with them. Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we haven't changed. I apologize if that knocks Planet Bob's orbit around you a tad off course. We didn't really blatantly lie, either. The only questions we were asked were going to leave Q (which we were asked at least 3 times a week and actually helped lead to our leaving) and if we were going to join another bloc, which we didn't (though we admitted that we were in talks for another bloc). We, and other alliances, did try to change Q while we were in it, it just didn't work.

If you were going to oppose the hegemony then you were going to leave the continuum. I suppose you rationalize it by saying "but we didn't have any intentions at the time!" People were perhaps doubtful of your position because it seemed clear that you weren't really very supportive of those who were your allies, yet you continued to portray yourselves as being supportive.

I don't really want to continue this any further, though, so I'll just leave it.

[Rafael Nadal]

To be fair, those fighting Echelon did ban Caffine from Echelon government as a part of their terms.

And as you've seen, many of us have qualms with that term.

[WarriorConcept]

Actually, that's currently Echelon's job, unless the NPO surrender terms have been amended.

What a funny comment that completely disregarded the rest of my post. The fact of the matter is you'd rather work on sattire instead of actually doing what should be done in order to change your public image.

To be fair, those fighting Echelon did ban Caffine from Echelon government as a part of their terms.

Fair enough, the rest still make a valid enough point.

[WarriorConcept]

You know it would be regarded as such.

If NpO can change its public image by putting a real effort into it, both internally and externally, why can't you?

[Israfeel]

What a funny comment that completely disregarded the rest of my post. The fact of the matter is you'd rather work on sattire instead of actually doing what should be done in order to change your public image.

Fair enough, the rest still make a valid enough point.

"They're only doing some of the things they preached against..."