NPO - A Suggestion

[the rebel]

The greatest victim of the war, sethb, will be your ego. Because when the war is done, you'll be right back where you started.

words of wisdom which will proberly be true

[Matthew Conrad]

Well considering this has been my second ZI of the war, I think I can say with some authority that you don't know what you're talking about.

I use this thing called 'sarcasm', for humorous purposes you see. I allude to the possibility that sethb might oh, damage my income-generating capabilities in mock horror.

This is what us earthlings refer to as 'humor'.

Going to ZI really has no bearing on whether I know what I'm talking about or not. That's like saying everyone who goes to ZI doesn't care about their infra much. It just means they couldn't get out of losing it.

Sarcasm and humor aren't the same thing. I would think you of all people would know that.

[sethb]

Cortath, Do not act like you know me enough to have any sort of idea as to how big my ego is. Which isn't that large tbh, as I have nothing to be egotistical about.

Edited June 30, 2009 by sethb

[Cortath]

Cortath, Do not act like you know me enough to have any sort of idea as to how big my ego is. Which isn't that large tbh, as I have nothing to be egotistical about.

Sethb, you're right. I don't know you very well. I never did, and I doubt I ever will.

I only know what you write and what you say. And what you've been saying is that you "know" why this war started, and moreover you've boasted on more than one occasion that you and you alone are the thing that brought down the New Pacific Order.

You are a tool. And I don't mean in the obscene sense, but simply the functional sense. You were convenient. You were everything those who controlled you and continue to control you wanted. A mid-level government official of a small alliance accepts spied information. Not a big enough alliance that they would be accused of knowing better. Not even high enough in your small alliance that you should know better. But in an alliance that was connected in precisely the way that mattered to activate the treaty web.

I know you're a tool because I understand alliances and alliance growth. This war isn't good for you. You have no reason to hate the NPO. Before this war, we never heard of OV and we never cared. I don't mean that in the callous sense, merely in the sense that our paths never crossed until you decided to cross them.

I know you're a tool because in every negotiation session I've been part during this war, you have been present as well and you barely speak. And I admit, I was curious. I know and knew nothing of you, beyond the events that began this conflict. We spoke briefly on IRC in query, but I wanted to hear your opinions during these peace negotiations on the record, and you did not speak, though I asked your opinions officially. You let the others do the talking for you. Perhaps it's because you value their opinions so much. Perhaps it's because they protect you. But in reality, I suspect it's because they control your destiny, and they do so because you let them.

I think that's sad.

[edit grammar]

Edited June 30, 2009 by Cortath

[Ogaden]

Going to ZI really has no bearing on whether I know what I'm talking about or not. That's like saying everyone who goes to ZI doesn't care about their infra much. It just means they couldn't get out of losing it.

Sarcasm and humor aren't the same thing. I would think you of all people would know that.

Again you don't know what you're talking about, my wars are all offensive wars.

[TehChron]

Sethb, you're right. I don't know you very well. I never did, and I doubt I ever will.

I only know what you write and what you say. And what you've been saying is that you "know" why this war started, and moreover you've boasted on more than one occasion that you and you alone are the thing that brought down the New Pacific Order.

You are a tool. And I don't mean in the obscene sense, but simply the functional sense. You were convenient. You were everything those who controlled you and continue to control you wanted. A mid-level government official of a small alliance accepts spied information. Not a big enough alliance that they would be accused of knowing better. Not even high-enough in your small alliance that you should know better. But in an alliance that was connected in precisely the way that mattered to activate the treaty web.

I know you're a tool because I understand alliances and alliance growth. This war isn't good for you. You have no reason to hate the NPO. Before this war, we never heard of OV and we never cared. I don't mean that in the callous sense, merely in the sense that our paths never crossed until you decided to cross them.

I know you're a tool because in every negotiation session I've been part during this war, you have been present as well and you barely speak. And I admit, I was curious. I know and knew nothing of you, beyond the events that began this conflict. We spoke briefly on IRC in query, but I wanted to hear your opinions during these peace negotiations on the record, and you did not speak, though I asked your opinions officially. You let the others do the talking for you. Perhaps it's because you value their opinions so much. Perhaps it's because they protect you. But in reality, I suspect it's because they control your destiny, and they do so because you let them.

I think that's sad.

Good god...Thats brutal.

I have to say that is one of the most cutting things I have ever read in my life, and frankly speaking; I approve of this post.

[Azaghul]

As we have said, time and time again, there were two main issues with the first set of terms. Firstly, was bringing the nations out of PM in the time allotted to achieve 90% compliance. The second was destroying those nations best able to pay reparations and simultaneously demand large reparations.

The proposal George the Great brings up attempts to eliminate the first issue. Let's pretend we all agree that it does. The second issue still remains and is unaddressed. You cannot both destroy the income generating nations of an alliance and then ask the alliance to pay very large reparations. You can do one. You can do the other. You cannot do both.

Does it yet again need to be explained to you that with as little as a 100 mill left over warchest you can buy from zero infra back into banking/reps paying range? And that it doesn't take a huge amount of aid to get people with lots of economic improvements and wonders back into banking range as well?

Y'all really need to get out of early 2007 in terms of banking principles.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Azaghul

[sethb]

Sethb, you're right. I don't know you very well. I never did, and I doubt I ever will.

I only know what you write and what you say. And what you've been saying is that you "know" why this war started, and moreover you've boasted on more than one occasion that you and you alone are the thing that brought down the New Pacific Order.

This is very very far from the truth, Other people have incorrectly said that on irc and I have either denied that or sarcastically agreed. I know I could not bring the NPO down by myself that is just absurd, If not for our allies and others it would have ended up another NPO curbstomp.

[Cortath]

Does it yet again need to be explained to you that with as little as a 100 mill left over warchest you can buy from zero infra back into banking/reps paying range? And that it doesn't take a huge amount of aid to get people with lots of economic improvements and wonders back into banking range as well?

Y'all really need to get out of early 2007 in terms of banking principles.

You're wrong. Firstly, it takes more than that, even with optimal wonders, improvements, etc., etc.

Secondly, you don't understand alliance economics on this scale, in this kind of alliance, with this kind of rebuilding. You and I have been through this before. If you want to go through it again, I'd suggest querying me so we can spare the OWF another one of these.

[sethb]

Sethb, you're right. I don't know you very well. I never did, and I doubt I ever will.

I know you're a tool because in every negotiation session I've been part during this war, you have been present as well and you barely speak. And I admit, I was curious. I know and knew nothing of you, beyond the events that began this conflict. We spoke briefly on IRC in query, but I wanted to hear your opinions during these peace negotiations on the record, and you did not speak, though I asked your opinions officially. You let the others do the talking for you. Perhaps it's because you value their opinions so much. Perhaps it's because they protect you. But in reality, I suspect it's because they control your destiny, and they do so because you let them.

I think that's sad.

[edit grammar]

The reason I didn't constantly speak up in the 'negotiations' was that you, and your fellow govt members kept spewing the same senseless arguments about how you couldn't possibly get your nations out of peace mode because they were all inactive and could not get to a computer.

[Cortath]

This is very very far from the truth, Other people have incorrectly said that on irc and I have either denied that or sarcastically agreed. I know I could not bring the NPO down by myself that is just absurd, If not for our allies and others it would have ended up another NPO curbstomp.

Of course it's absurd. No one is doubting that it is absurd.

What's absurd is you trying to make pithy one-line posts as if you control any single aspect of your situation and your destiny. Yes, we, the New Pacific Order don't really have much say in these terms, as the losing power, but what's most sad, is that as the victorious power, you don't seem to have any say either.

[Matthew Conrad]

Again you don't know what you're talking about, my wars are all offensive wars.

You really have no idea what I said actually meant do you?

[Cortath]

The reason I didn't constantly speak up in the 'negotiations' was that you, and your fellow govt members kept spewing the same senseless arguments about how you couldn't possibly get your nations out of peace mode because they were all inactive and could not get to a computer.

How about when our government contacted your government (by your government, I mean you, the Foreign Minister) and made peace overtures, but more than a week later, after no progress at even getting a meeting together, we had to go to other alliances who told us that they weren't aware the NPO had contacted anyone? How about when your government promised a meeting that never materialized?

No, the reason you didn't speak up is that you don't have anything to say. You didn't have a say in how this war began, you didn't have a say in this war was fought, you don't have a say in how this war will end, and you are fooling yourself if you think you will have any say in the peace.

Get used to it. This is your world now.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Cortath

[sethb]

No, the reason you didn't speak up is that you don't have anything to say. You didn't have a say in how this war began, you didn't have a say in this war was fought, you don't have a say in how this war will end, and you are fooling yourself if you think you will have any say in the peace.

Get used to it. This is your world now.

You honestly think that the only aspect of the Karma effort I have been involved in was those negotiations?

[Big Z]

You're wrong. Firstly, it takes more than that, even with optimal wonders, improvements, etc., etc.

He's pretty much on the dot actually. It can cost as little as 112 mil to rebuild from straight ZI to banking range.

[Dr hairy Ballz]

^^^^^^^^^^I think we call that MAJOR OWNAGE!

[Cortath]

You honestly think that the only aspect of the Karma effort I have been involved in was those negotiations?

Yes, that is precisely what I think.

What did you offer? You control nothing. Do you have an advanced war system? A vast and strong military? An advanced military intelligence system? A large and deep network of diplomats? Is it your orators and rhetoricians to win the hearts and minds? No. All I see are your attempts at pithy one-liners.

But you are correct, you offered more. A tool, although a very specialized tool. And I say that with a certain amount of respect. When you have a nail, a hammer is a darn good thing to have, but it's not good for much else. Your problem, personally, and what your alliance will have to face, is what to do when you're only a hammer and you soon find out that there was only one nail.

[Azaghul]

You're wrong. Firstly, it takes more than that, even with optimal wonders, improvements, etc., etc.

With a standard 3BR trade set and IS, from ZI it takes:

~41 mill to get to 2999 infra

~80 mill to get to 3999 infra

~147 mill to get to 4999 infra.

Since a 3999 infra nation can easily send out 18 mill and/or 50 tech on 6 slots a cycle, it actually takes less than 100 million. That's the point where a lot of people convert from selling to buying tech, and it's also been the dividing line for several alliances I've worked with for becoming a bank. A 2999 infra earns enough to send money and/or tech all slots as well if really needed.

Secondly, you don't understand alliance economics on this scale, in this kind of alliance, with this kind of rebuilding. You and I have been through this before. If you want to go through it again, I'd suggest querying me so we can spare the OWF another one of these.

I coordinated roughly 130 people split between those able to bank immediately, those that had to rebuild but banked later, and others acting as tech producers in producing large amounts of tech reps and rebuilding.

I outlined a plan that uses 40 banks and 50 tech producers to pay off the reps in 6 months. At just 83% efficiency among designated bank nations and 67% among tech producers, and only uses 60% of eligible participants in reps. Take out the banks and you have 50/110 nations, less than 50% participation rate. Over 1000 tech nations aren't noobs, but have some experience using aid slots.

I understand that you can't be expected 100% participation and efficiency, but those rates are by no means unattainable.

[Dr hairy Ballz]

Yes, that is precisely what I think.

What did you offer? You control nothing. Do you have an advanced war system? A vast and strong military? An advanced military intelligence system? A large and deep network of diplomats? Is it your orators and rhetoricians to win the hearts and minds? No. All I see are your attempts at pithy one-liners.

But you are correct, you offered more. A tool, although a very specialized tool. And I say that with a certain amount of respect. When you have a nail, a hammer is a darn good thing to have, but it's not good for much else. Your problem, personally, and what your alliance will have to face, is what to do when you're only a hammer and you soon find out that there was only one nail.

And we get to see NPO's fascist mindset once again, wonderful. Some people and alliances care for more than what you have proposed, I suggest you bite down hard and re-evaluate your alliances view of the world.

[Llednar Twem]

And we get to see NPO's fascist mindset once again, wonderful. Some people and alliances care for more than what you have proposed, I suggest you bite down hard and re-evaluate your alliances view of the world.

And how does us caring for what Cortath said make us fascist?

Are you just throwing out that word because it sounds cool? Did I misread your post?

Who knows?

[Dr hairy Ballz]

When you learn the facets of fascism we can have this discussion...

Oh, and you completely missed what I wrote. But I expect no less from the NPO.

Do your homework, come back prepared and we can discourse further.

Thanks.

[Llednar Twem]

When you learn the facets of fascism we can have this discussion...

Oh, and you completely missed what I wrote. But I expect no less from the NPO.

Do your homework, come back prepared and we can discourse further.

Thanks.

Oh, I know the basics of fascism.

Rather than insult my intelligence, would you care to explain your post in more detail?

Oh, wait. I would expect nothing less from our foes and detractors.

[Dr hairy Ballz]

(Cortath @ Jun 29 2009, 10:44 PM)

"Yes, that is precisely what I think.

What did you offer? You control nothing. Do you have an advanced war system? A vast and strong military? An advanced military intelligence system? A large and deep network of diplomats? Is it your orators and rhetoricians to win the hearts and minds? No. All I see are your attempts at pithy one-liners.

But you are correct, you offered more. A tool, although a very specialized tool. And I say that with a certain amount of respect. When you have a nail, a hammer is a darn good thing to have, but it's not good for much else. Your problem, personally, and what your alliance will have to face, is what to do when you're only a hammer and you soon find out that there was only one nail."

DHB:

"And we get to see NPO's fascist mindset once again, wonderful. Some people and alliances care for more than what you have proposed, I suggest you bite down hard and re-evaluate your alliances view of the world."

How exactly should I break this down for you...

Fascism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Then read what Cortath wrote.

Cortaths argument is that Seth has nothing to offer Karma militarily and therefore would be of no use and thus has no say in it.

My response points out the hard line thinking that you must be using to take that view and retorts that some (like OV) care for things far greater than the number of soldiers ones nation has.

Good to go now?

Edited June 30, 2009 by Dr hairy Ballz

[Cortath]

And we get to see NPO's fascist mindset once again, wonderful. Some people and alliances care for more than what you have proposed, I suggest you bite down hard and re-evaluate your alliances view of the world.

Fascist? Do I advocate the creation of syndicalist government-run semi-monopolies uniting industry and workers? Nope.

I think when you say "fascist," the word you're looking for is "mean." Yes, I know it hurts, but I only speak the truth. And I only speak it to you because your comrade's one-liners annoyed me. Most people won't tell you what I tell you, but it's not as if you were my friends before.

Your alliance is not in a good way, and it won't be for a long time. When a small alliance wants to make its debut on the world stage, being a tool of others is not a good way to go about it. When your Minister of Foreign Affairs, who represents you on the world stage, makes the claims he does and says the things he does, he only demeans your alliance. I understand you are proud, but you have to earn that, and while you might be proud while standing under the wing of your protectors right now, don't think for a second that they care for you. Like the mother bird who recognizes when a chick can't fly, you'll soon find yourself pushed out of your nest, bloodied and mangled beneath a greater tree.

Perhaps you'll learn to fly, but your attempts thus far don't look good.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Cortath

[Dr hairy Ballz]

Fascist? Do I advocate the creation of syndicalist government-run semi-monopolies uniting industry and workers? Nope.

I think when you say "fascist," the word you're looking for is "mean." Yes, I know it hurts, but I only speak the truth. And I only speak it to you because your comrade's one-liners annoyed me. Most people won't tell you what I tell you, but it's not as if you were my friends before.

Your alliance is not in a good way, and it won't be for a long time. When a small alliance wants to make its debut on the world stage, being a tool of others is not a good way to go about it. When your Minister of Foreign Affairs, who represents you on the world stage, makes the claims he does and says the things he does, he only demeans your alliance. I understand you are proud, but you have to earn that, and while you might be proud while standing under the wing of your protectors right now, don't think for a second that they care for you. Like the mother bird who recognizes when a chick can't fly, you'll soon find yourself pushed out of your nest, bloodied and mangled beneath a greater tree.

Perhaps you'll learn to fly, but your attempts thus far don't look good.

Nope, I meant Fascism

Edited June 30, 2009 by Dr hairy Ballz