NPO - A Suggestion

[Stetson76]

lol, dont be nieve, they are watching very closely.

I never said they weren't, just that some of your nations might get a day or two of not being attacked while in war mode to reduce the ultimate damage a little bit.

Umm, lets think about this for a second. The terms stated that we would be in 14 days of war after the terms are signed, and all nations in compliance. Lets just say for easy math, that our alliance (that section of it in duress of the terms) is one single nation.

The standard way of thinking:

x days after signing before we reach compliance + 14 war days = 14+x

Your way:

y (y =somewhere around 7) days of war after leaving peace before signing terms + x days after signing before complaince is reached + 14 war days = 14 +x + y (approx 21+x)

14 +y +x > 14+x. Why was this a good idea?

Perhaps you've misunderstood the terms, or I misunderstand your logic.

The terms that I read stated that upon signing the terms those nations that are in peace mode will be instructed to come out for 14 days of war. If they are not in peace mode when the terms are signed, there's no reason for them to come out and then be attacked. Cortath in the next post doesn't seem to have an issue understanding my logic.

--- Now let's be realistic and and discuss some of the proposals of "remove your nations from PM and sign peace." We are not fools. If we removed our banks from peace mode and tried signing peace terms the same night, Karma would reject the peace. Karma wants war. They want war against our banks. These terms were specifically designed to achieve, from Karma's perspective, at worst, a lot of damage against our banks, and at best, an eternal war. If we did like some suggest, by removing nations from PM in preparation for an immediate signing of peace terms, the peace terms would be off the table as soon as could be.

Okay, so finally someone addressed the fundamental issue with my proposal, the idea that the terms might be pulled if this plan is put into effect.

It is interesting that the bolded part seems to say that you guys can get your peace mode nations out of peace same day, something that I thought was indefinitely impossible hence the reason I built in the additional time to the plan. That additional time is what Muffasamini says above that he has a problem with.

But to the point of your reply...that Karma will pull the terms if you bring your banks out of peace mode to "play" the terms as written. That's definitely a risk and not one that I would take lightly either. The fact is though that they have stated many, many times that these are the terms, you either comply, or keep at war. At some point, you have to trust them. If they accept your counter proposal tomorrow and you bring your nations out of PM to begin to pay the reps, they can just attack them then. What's to stop them from doing that? The public perception and their own honor, the same things that would make them accept the terms that they presented to you using this plan.

Bottom line, no matter what you'll have to trust them or not. If not, that's fine, then quit saying its an issue of the terms being impossible and just say that no matter what the terms are, you don't trust them and will fight forever. I'm sure your members would like to know that they have no chance of peace no matter what terms are handed down. Because under any terms, your peace mode nations will have to come out whether for "punishment" or to help pay off the reps.

So, trust em now when it's in their self interest to appear honorable, or later when you've got no chance of rebuilding.

[Azhrarn]

The proposal George the Great brings up attempts to eliminate the first issue. Let's pretend we all agree that it does. The second issue still remains and is unaddressed. You cannot both destroy the income generating nations of an alliance and then ask the alliance to pay very large reparations. You can do one. You can do the other. You cannot do both.

After considering the unjustness of this demand, I have wept tears for your alliance. How silly of us to assume that just because the WAE was able to get all of its nations out of peace mode, that the NPO would be able to do the same. So I would like to suggest a compromise for the Karma negotiators with which I'm sure you'll agree. I'd like to suggest that the NPO's peacemode nations be offered the same terms that the NPO itself offered to GATO's peacemode nations.

It has come to my attention that there are members of the Rebelling Brown Colony who are not embracing the passion that is within their souls.

This disturbs me deeply, for I have given all of the Brown Colony the chance to truly be free and be overrun with the passion within the souls of my storm troopers as well as within their own souls. I refuse to allow the members of the Brown Colony to miss the greatest event in their lives… the event that will set them free.

Today is the last day of April, and the Imperial Military Analysts have scribed the name of every GATO nation in peace mode. On May 3rd, they shall check their list and any nation still in peace mode shall only know peace or death.

Their nations shall become a prison, cut off from the world of trade, relations, and life. No system shall harbor them under penalty of war. No aid shall be given under penalty of death. Long after the Brown Rebellion is put down, those that refused to fight will continue to struggle in this world.

Be it Ordered this 30th day of April, 2008

Emperor Revenge

New Sith Order

PS: This goes for IAA too since they saw fit to try and keep all their top nations out of war.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Cortath]

Okay, so finally someone addressed the fundamental issue with my proposal, the idea that the terms might be pulled if this plan is put into effect.

It is interesting that the bolded part seems to say that you guys can get your peace mode nations out of peace same day, something that I thought was indefinitely impossible hence the reason I built in the additional time to the plan. That additional time is what Muffasamini says above that he has a problem with.

But to the point of your reply...that Karma will pull the terms if you bring your banks out of peace mode to "play" the terms as written. That's definitely a risk and not one that I would take lightly either. The fact is though that they have stated many, many times that these are the terms, you either comply, or keep at war. At some point, you have to trust them. If they accept your counter proposal tomorrow and you bring your nations out of PM to begin to pay the reps, they can just attack them then. What's to stop them from doing that? The public perception and their own honor, the same things that would make them accept the terms that they presented to you using this plan.

Bottom line, no matter what you'll have to trust them or not. If not, that's fine, then quit saying its an issue of the terms being impossible and just say that no matter what the terms are, you don't trust them and will fight forever. I'm sure your members would like to know that they have no chance of peace no matter what terms are handed down. Because under any terms, your peace mode nations will have to come out whether for "punishment" or to help pay off the reps.

So, trust em now when it's in their self interest to appear honorable, or later when you've got no chance of rebuilding.

I'm just dealing with the theoretical issue of the peace terms now, not the actuality of coordinating a same-day peace mode exit, which, as I think me and my brethren have stated time and time again, is impossible. I'm addressing the fundamental issue with why we would never accept the proposal you've made -- if we did (and I don't think we are able to) do it, the terms would be pulled. Karma has made it clear through negotiations time and time again: they want to destroy this group of nations. They do not care how they do it, but they want to. E-lawyering our way out of the these terms with a proposal like yours would simply result in the terms being pulled, and no doubt our nations being subjected to even more war than the terms themselves would theoretically call for.

[Angrator]

Give it up already NPO. You lost. Prolonging this just makes it harder to rebuild in the future.

[Cortath]

After considering the unjustness of this demand, I have wept tears for your alliance. How silly of us to assume that just because the WAE was able to get all of its nations out of peace mode, that the NPO would be able to do the same. So I would like to suggest a compromise for the Karma negotiators with which I'm sure you'll agree. I'd like to suggest that the NPO's peacemode nations be offered the same terms that the NPO itself offered to GATO's peacemode nations.

This has been addressed time and time again and by the Emperor himself in his Imperial Decree. 1. The terms were never enforced. 2. It was a bad idea, though it was never enforced, and we regret. We've made these statements, privately and unofficially to GATO long ago, and publicly and officially more recently.

[muffasamini]

Give it up already NPO. You lost. Prolonging this just makes it harder to rebuild in the future.

Where have you been? We admitted defeat a while ago.

After considering the unjustness of this demand, I have wept tears for your alliance. How silly of us to assume that just because the WAE was able to get all of its nations out of peace mode, that the NPO would be able to do the same. So I would like to suggest a compromise for the Karma negotiators with which I'm sure you'll agree. I'd like to suggest that the NPO's peacemode nations be offered the same terms that the NPO itself offered to GATO's peacemode nations.

Oh please, you arent GATO, and you dont speak for them. Everyone knows that term was in poor choice, so it was never ever enforced, and there were apologies all around. Get off it.

So if you'd you like to do what we did to GATO and decree that then not enforce it, fine, that would be a pretty good deal for me.

Edited June 29, 2009 by muffasamini

[Azhrarn]

This has been addressed time and time again and by the Emperor himself in his Imperial Decree. 1. The terms were never enforced. 2. It was a bad idea, though it was never enforced, and we regret. We've made these statements, privately and unofficially to GATO long ago, and publicly and officially more recently.

I have to admit I've never quite understood how GATO complying with the demand to have all nations leave peace mode = the terms were never enforced.

So if you'd you like to do what we did to GATO and decree that then not enforce it, fine, that would be a pretty good deal for me.

Works for me. So when can we expect all your nations to leave peace mode?

Edited June 29, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Azhrarn]

Double post.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Azhrarn

[muffasamini]

I have to admit I've never quite understood how GATO complying with the demand to have all nations leave peace mode equates = the terms were never enforced.

you've based your whole arguments around this havent you? your sig, everything. Your revisional history is incorrect, and furthermore, you arent GATO. If we need to be punished for our regrettable actions toward GATO, please, by all means, have them come out here and demand it. But they arent, GATO is its own entity trying to say out of this conflict, GATO isnt a political pawn for your use.

[Azhrarn]

you've based your whole arguments around this havent you? your sig, everything. Your revisional history is incorrect, and furthermore, you arent GATO. If we need to be punished for our regrettable actions toward GATO, please, by all means, have them come out here and demand it. But they arent, GATO is its own entity trying to say out of this conflict, GATO isnt a political pawn for your use.

I don't need GATO's permission to point out the hypocrisy of your alliance, which somehow never realized the unjustness of those demands until it found itself on the losing side of a beat down. Just a coincidence of timimg, amirite? Your emperor's proclamation certainly wasn't made in bad faith, was it? And he certainly wasn't attempting to use GATO as a political pawn for the NPO's own purposes, now was he?

You demanded that all GATO nations leave peace mode, and they complied. Now Karma is demanding that 90% of all NPO nations leave peace mode.

Stop whining and get to it.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Midkn1ght]

I don't need GATO's permission to point out the hypocrisy of your alliance, which somehow never realized the unjustness of those demands until it found itself on the losing side of a beat down. Just a coincidence of timimg, amirite? Your emperor's proclamation certainly wasn't made in bad faith, was it? And he certainly wasn't attempting to use GATO as a political pawn for the NPO's own purposes, now was he?

You demanded that all GATO nations leave peace mode, and they complied. Now Karma is demanding that 90% of all NPO nations leave peace mode.

Stop whining and get to it.

This. If they can flipping click the collect taxes and pay bills buttons seemingly very often for them being so unreachably inactive, you know, while they're buying wonders, and some are taking part in large tech movements, they can hit the damned edit nation button, and swap over to war, and take part in a cycle or two of war... so they can be nuked 3 times a day right?

[Ogaden]

This is a pretty standard NPO thread.

"neutral" observer: Hey you should just do this NPO

NPO: That makes no sense

KARMA: Stop whining

[Azhrarn]

This. If they can flipping click the collect taxes and pay bills buttons seemingly very often for them being so unreachably inactive, you know, while they're buying wonders, and some are taking part in large tech movements, they can hit the damned edit nation button, and swap over to war, and take part in a cycle or two of war... so they can be nuked 3 times a day right?

You're forgetting the part where their banks hiding in other AAs (MCXA applicant jman3478 of Libya, I'm looking at you) suddenly send out 6 aid packages and then attack a Ragnarok nation. Wonder how many other banks they have hiding out there.

Edit. You can only be nuked once per day.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Essenia]

This is a pretty standard NPO thread.

"neutral" observer: Hey you should just do this NPO

NPO: That makes no sense

KARMA: Stop whining

James Dahl: I'm not entirely sure what is going on, but I must post to defend NPO's honor.

Fix'd.

[Ogaden]

You're forgetting the part where their banks hiding in other AAs (MCXA applicant jman3478 of Libya, I'm looking at you) suddenly send out 6 aid packages and then attack a Ragnarok nation. Wonder how many other banks they have hiding out there.

Hehheh.

This conspiracy theory always cracks me up.

Since we have this legion of hidden banks, why bother demanding our banks come out of peace mode?

In fact you should just attack every alliance applicant in the game, they might be a bank of ours.

[Azhrarn]

Hehheh.

This conspiracy theory always cracks me up.

Since we have this legion of hidden banks, why bother demanding our banks come out of peace mode?

In fact you should just attack every alliance applicant in the game, they might be a bank of ours.

MCXA applicant jman3478 of Libya is no conspiracy theory. I noticed him the same day he switched his AA to NPO. He still had an active aid transaction from when he wore the "MXCA applicant" AA. I guess he never learned how to spell MCXA, lol. Six open aid transactions total, all to NPO nations at war, and then declares war himself.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Stetson76]

NPO: That makes no sense

What about this doesn't make sense? The fact that you'd have to trust Karma to fulfill the terms they offered you? 'Cause if that's your rationale, you'll never accept any peace terms because you'll never be able to trust that Karma won't just jump your peace mode nations once you start to rebuild.

So, got, it. NPO will not accept any peace terms that allow them to rebuild because they may get attacked by those untrustworthy Karma alliances. You're right, that makes a ton more sense. With bowed head and a humble heart I say "It's true James Dahl, you have shown me the error of my ways. From now on, I will emulate your fine example, because being right can only get me so far."[/sarcasm]

[sethb]

Hehheh.

This conspiracy theory always cracks me up.

Since we have this legion of hidden banks, why bother demanding our banks come out of peace mode?

In fact you should just attack every alliance applicant in the game, they might be a bank of ours.

What you don't think we have been tracking your nations?

[Zeta Defender]

What you don't think we have been tracking your nations?

We know you have, except we get blamed for having secret banks in other AAs anytime someone goes rogue, we get blamed. See how this gets old fast for us.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Zeta Defender

[Systemfailure]

assuming that karma isn't watching, ready to divebomb them the second they come out, of course. big assumption

wouldnt matter really, Moo signs term next update...or hell 1hr after they come out and theres a cease fire, bank nations can offer peace and start paying of that mighty sum of reps

[Qaianna]

Hm. Weren't many here applauding the Federation of Armed Nations when they were concerned about treachery?

Then again, terms are always up to the honour of those who administer them; on a personal note, I will say that ours were handled pretty well. I guess the concern they have is whether anyone would actually CARE if terms were cheated on. Granted, some may voice concern, but given how many people threw bile in the thread noting the temporary illness of their Emperor, there's an appearance that allegations from the Order of rescinded terms or inappropriate attacks while under terms would be shouted down in a frenzy of jeering.

I'm also curious whether the idea of bringing people out of peace mode and then signing the terms would actually be accepted by the alliances attacking Pacifica. Would any representatives of them like to state their opinion?

Edit: I should've said 'official' representatives.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Qaianna

[Stetson76]

wouldnt matter really, Moo signs term next update...or hell 1hr after they come out and theres a cease fire, bank nations can offer peace and start paying of that mighty sum of reps

<Hi-Five> That's what I've been trying to say! LOL

--- there's an appearance that allegations from the Order of rescinded terms or inappropriate attacks while under terms would be shouted down in a frenzy of jeering...

It could be shouted down, but the publicity of the terms and the availability of war declaations would seem to make that impossible to hide.

[Ogaden]

MCXA applicant jman3478 of Libya is no conspiracy theory. I noticed him the same day he switched his AA to NPO. He still had an active aid transaction from when he wore the "MXCA applicant" AA. I guess he never learned how to spell MCXA, lol. Six open aid transactions total, all to NPO nations at war, and then declares war himself.

That's what's called a rogue.

We have a tool to check to see if someone is a member of ours, and he is not.

He's hardly the only person to ghost our AA.

Edited June 29, 2009 by James Dahl

[Azhrarn]

That's what's called a rogue.

We have a tool to check to see if someone is a member of ours, and he is not.

He's hardly the only person to ghost our AA.

A ghost? Heh. Not hardly.

Do all of your ghosts contribute $21 million in aid to your alliance, and fight upwards of 4 wars for your alliance? If so, you should probably get rid of those peacemode warriors you have, the ones who can't be bothered to follow their Emperor's orders, and find some more "ghosts."

A "ghost," by definition, does not aid and does not fight. How else do you think they got the name "ghost?"

Edited June 29, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Joe Kremlin]

A "ghost," by definition, does not aid and does not fight. How else do you think they got the name "ghost?"

It could just be someone fighting for their cause who put on their AA for the war. I wish our ghosts were that useful.