NPO - A Suggestion

[Cortath]

Nope, I meant Fascism

I admire your cogent and on-point response.

When I said "perhaps you'll learn to fly," I expected that you would at least give it a try. But not every bird knows which way is up, and that's why they fall down.

[TehChron]

Nope, I meant Fascism

To be fair, you did quote yourself saying "fascist" in the first place.

[Dr hairy Ballz]

To be fair, you did quote yourself saying "fascist" in the first place.

(OOC) OK, fine it is late and I am tired and you are correct... jkh jkhfl (/OOC)

[Dr hairy Ballz]

I admire your cogent and on-point response.

When I said "perhaps you'll learn to fly," I expected that you would at least give it a try. But not every bird knows which way is up, and that's why they fall down.

Nope, not here, and we are doing just fine thanks. We seem to be flying fairly well as it were.

I did see an interesting picture the other day, I think it was a cow trying to fly, seems to have plummeted like a rock tho... Maybe it was just me.

[Cortath]

Nope, not here, and we are doing just fine thanks. We seem to be flying fairly well as it were.

I did see an interesting picture the other day, I think it was a cow trying to fly, seems to have plummeted like a rock tho... Maybe it was just me.

Your attempt to match my metaphor, is as crude as is it ineffective, and much more importantly, far off the point of the entire conversation both you and I were having, as well as your Minister of Foreign Operations and myself.

Care to take a gander at responding it, or would you like to call me some more names based on ideologies which have little to no application in this world? You already tried Fascist. Could I perhaps suggest Stalinist?

[Llednar Twem]

How exactly should I break this down for you...

Fascism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology[1][2][3][4] and a corporatist economic ideology.[5] Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak.[6] Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state.[7] Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[8] Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.

I don't see where most of those points can apply to the NPO.

Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology[1][2][3][4] and a corporatist economic ideology.

As for the first point, most positions are given based on merit and hard work. There are also monthly elections for representatives of our membership. These representatives make sure that the views of the membership are heard. That's their job.

I think of it like a hybrid.

As for the second point, wouldn't this be common in all alliances?

Corporatism is a system of economic, political, and social organization where corporate groups such as business, ethnic, farmer, labour, military, patronage, or religious groups are joined together under a common governing jurisdiction to try to achieve societal harmony and promote coordinated development.

I certainly hope that alliances would try to achieve "society harmony and promote coordinated development". If they didn't, they would probably not last very long.

Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak.

I don't think anyone in the Order believes that the alliances in CN are in perpetual conflict, even though it has certainly had its fair share of wars. I am aware that NPO has been involved in many conflicts, but I believe that is because people cannot resist poking the bear with a stick, not because of an evil conspiracy to wipe out every alliance in the game.

Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state.

When I think of alliances in CN, I think of each one as a separate single-party state. The party is the membership of the alliance. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.

Criticism and opposition is certainly not forbidden in the NPO, at least from what I can see. In fact, many of our improvements and advances have come from someone seeing issues with the current system and proposing something that they feel is better. Debates and discussions are actively encouraged, and leadership takes part in these discussions and considers the ideas brought up.

Then read what Cortath wrote.

Cortaths argument is that Seth has nothing to offer Karma militarily and therefore would be of no use and thus has no say in it.

My response points out the hard line thinking that you must be using to take that view and retorts that some (like OV) care for things far greater than the number of soldiers ones nation has.

Cortath's list brings up far more than just numbers of soldiers of nations. He is bringing up different departments that would be common to most alliances. He is asking if Seth has anything to offer from any of those areas, not just soldiers from nations of alliance members.

Edit: I also see my post is a little late. Sorry for beating a possible dead horse; I just wanted to reply.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Llednar Twem

[raincoat2]

Sethb, you're right. I don't know you very well. I never did, and I doubt I ever will.

I only know what you write and what you say. And what you've been saying is that you "know" why this war started, and moreover you've boasted on more than one occasion that you and you alone are the thing that brought down the New Pacific Order.

You are a tool. And I don't mean in the obscene sense, but simply the functional sense. You were convenient. You were everything those who controlled you and continue to control you wanted. A mid-level government official of a small alliance accepts spied information. Not a big enough alliance that they would be accused of knowing better. Not even high enough in your small alliance that you should know better. But in an alliance that was connected in precisely the way that mattered to activate the treaty web.

I know you're a tool because I understand alliances and alliance growth. This war isn't good for you. You have no reason to hate the NPO. Before this war, we never heard of OV and we never cared. I don't mean that in the callous sense, merely in the sense that our paths never crossed until you decided to cross them.

I know you're a tool because in every negotiation session I've been part during this war, you have been present as well and you barely speak. And I admit, I was curious. I know and knew nothing of you, beyond the events that began this conflict. We spoke briefly on IRC in query, but I wanted to hear your opinions during these peace negotiations on the record, and you did not speak, though I asked your opinions officially. You let the others do the talking for you. Perhaps it's because you value their opinions so much. Perhaps it's because they protect you. But in reality, I suspect it's because they control your destiny, and they do so because you let them.

I think that's sad.

[edit grammar]

I would like to address this point. I will agree that this war is not good for OV, however remember that NPO started this war. It would not have been good for them regardless of Karmas involvement. You seem to think OV is being "used" by Karma. However, OV asked for their Karma allies help. You act as if had Karma not intervened in any way, OV would have happily gotten out of this situation. No, instead of being at the "mercy" of their allies(which I don't see as any different than any war situation, an alliance is always at the mercy of its allies to come and defend it), they would be at the mercy of the NPO. OV made a choice, they could have been rolled by the NPO or protected with their allies help, I dont see how they are now considered a "tool" because they had their allies help them in a war instead of being rolled by the NPO.

Just because Karma may have had motives other than helping OV, does not mean OV did not accomplish what it wanted from this war.

[Dr hairy Ballz]

Your attempt to match my metaphor, is as crude as is it ineffective, and much more importantly, far off the point of the entire conversation both you and I were having, as well as your Minister of Foreign Operations and myself.

Care to take a gander at responding it, or would you like to call me some more names based on ideologies which have little to no application in this world? You already tried Fascist. Could I perhaps suggest Stalinist?

Another stall tactic from the glorious NPO. You can try to trivialize the fact that NPO does indeed hold ideals very similar to that of a fascist regime but people only buy your bs for so long. And why should I call you Stalinist?

There was no attempt to match anything Cortath, OV does not have "envy issues", we are quite happy on our own building lasting relationships instead of sitting in the corner plotting everyone else's downfall.

As for your issues with Seth, I think he is quite secure in his position in OV and Karma. I wouldn't worry about him, he's doing just fine.

[raincoat2]

Of course it's absurd. No one is doubting that it is absurd.

What's absurd is you trying to make pithy one-line posts as if you control any single aspect of your situation and your destiny. Yes, we, the New Pacific Order don't really have much say in these terms, as the losing power, but what's most sad, is that as the victorious power, you don't seem to have any say either.

1. Do you have any evidence that Seth is not involved in other aspects of Karma? How exactly do you know the inner workings of the faction?

2. Wouldn't it be possible Seth is not speaking up because he is happy with the current terms and has nothing to add? There is no point in talking just to prove you can, it would just be nonsensical chatter.

[muffasamini]

Another angry indignation tactic from the esteemed OV.

You can move a philisophical debate over our IC government type to a better place. Unless you of course just meant it as pejorative, in wich I have no idea why were having such a ridiculous discussion.

Another stall tactic from the glorious NPO. You can try to trivialize the fact that NPO does indeed hold ideals very similar to that of a fascist regime but people only buy your bs for so long. And why should I call you Stalinist?

There was no attempt to match anything Cortath, OV does not have "envy issues", we are quite happy on our own building lasting relationships instead of sitting in the corner plotting everyone else's downfall.

As for your issues with Seth, I think he is quite secure in his position in OV and Karma. I wouldn't worry about him, he's doing just fine.

Repeat that too me a month after this war ends. See how much your Karma buddies care. You were used as a conduit for the worlds bloodlust, nothing more.

Edited June 30, 2009 by muffasamini

[Cortath]

I would like to address this point. I will agree that this war is not good for OV, however remember that NPO started this war. It would not have been good for them regardless of Karmas involvement. You seem to think OV is being "used" by Karma. However, OV asked for their Karma allies help. You act as if had Karma not intervened in any way, OV would have happily gotten out of this situation. No, instead of being at the "mercy" of their allies(which I don't see as any different than any war situation, an alliance is always at the mercy of its allies to come and defend it), they would be at the mercy of the NPO. OV made a choice, they could have been rolled by the NPO or protected with their allies help, I dont see how they are now considered a "tool" because they had their allies help them in a war instead of being rolled by the NPO.

Just because Karma may have had motives other than helping OV, does not mean OV did not accomplish what it wanted from this war.

You know what would have happened if OV didn't cede its sovereignty to its allies? They would have apologized for accepting spied information, and maybe sethb would have one round of war.

I think, from the perspective of Ordo Verde, that's quite preferable to the present situation. And you know who agrees with me? Sethb. He apologized and he agreed to go for one round of war in the initial round of negotiations ... but something held him back -- his "allies." And what happens when you cede your sovereignty to people who don't have your best interests at heart?

Well, in this case, it's clear: eternal war. Many of OV's allies don't want peace. They want this war to continue forever, until the New Pacific Order is not and never can be a "threat." I fail to see any situation, save our ceasing to exist, where we can't, somehow, theoretically, in the future, be a "threat." That's the line they parrot, and it's the line that sethb happily accepted, to his and his alliance's doom.

What doom is that? Well, the doom of an eternal war they didn't want. I know they didn't want it, because they were able to go to reasonable steps to avoid it, as were we. But their allies saw an opening. They saw a unique tool, and I certainly don't blame them for grasping the hammer and pounding the nail; I give them credit for their guile, but I have little sympathy for the hammer that put itself in the hands of someone else.

The problem with being a hammer is that you're in someone's fist.

[Dr hairy Ballz]

Another angry indignation tactic from the esteemed OV.

You can move a philisophical debate over our IC government type to a better place. Unless you of course just meant it as pejorative, in wich I have no idea why were having such a ridiculous discussion.

Repeat that too me a month after this war ends. See how much your Karma buddies care. You were used as a conduit for the worlds bloodlust, nothing more.

You do remember YOU attacked us right?!

NPO seems to forget that a lot.

[muffasamini]

You do remember YOU attacked us right?!

NPO seems to forget that a lot.

You had ample sane ways to avoid bieng attacked. You chose to stay and fight, for what reason, I can only guess. Oh wait, thats an easy one, you were told to. You were told by your allies not to accept a measly slap on the wrist for spying, they would all attack the NPO through the treaty web, while you are stuck in an e-war. The world was itching for a war, I dont have to bring up all the topics and polls saying so to prove it, and you provided the means of the world doing so.

Your "allies" were rallying together behind you to make create this war. Did they expect the whole world on their side? No. But they were planning out a good handful of a war at your expense.

You could, tomorrow, save your crushed alliance from this mess you let your allies drag you into, but no. That would mean an end to their war, and their having too much fun e-moralizing their way to anything they want. Those terms, as they are, cannot be accepted in good faith and will not be signed. So, whatever they are saying to you to stay in this, they arent doing it because they care about you. You were used, and you need to accept that.

EDIT: Kept adding stuff, done

Edited June 30, 2009 by muffasamini

[Lord Valleo]

Good god...Thats brutal.

I have to say that is one of the most cutting things I have ever read in my life, and frankly speaking; I approve of this post.

I have to agree, this post is one of the best I have ever read and totally demoralizing.

Aside from that, imo opinion a year from now what will we see from OV? My guess is nothing as they will no longer exist

[Dr hairy Ballz]

Well Muffasa, considering we are not the ones facing "eternal sanctions" to paraphrase NPO's crying points, I am not as concerned for OV as I am NPO.

And "ample sane ways to avoid being attacked", orly, as deemed by who, the one inflicting said penalties. Give me a break.

EDIT: I'm sleepy so no more discussion for me tonight. Night folks.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Dr hairy Ballz

[Petar the 5th]

Hmm I can asure you that we will be here in a year. Our side is doing pretty well now. We survived one year; why warring with NPO should gives us troubles with second year? And eternal war.... We have no problems with it; question is, do you guys have?

[Lord Valleo]

Well Muffasa, considering we are not the ones facing "eternal sanctions" to paraphrase NPO's crying points, I am not as concerned for OV as I am NPO.

And "ample sane ways to avoid being attacked", orly, as deemed by who, the one inflicting said penalties. Give me a break.

Please we don't need your concerns, and no worries about your concerns for OV as they really have no say what happens but perhaps one of their puppet masters could shed what purpose your alliance could possibly have for the future.

Have a twix and coffee and your break is covered

[muffasamini]

Well Muffasa, considering we are not the ones facing "eternal sanctions" to paraphrase NPO's crying points, I am not as concerned for OV as I am NPO.

And "ample sane ways to avoid being attacked", orly, as deemed by who, the one inflicting said penalties. Give me a break.

No, your facing eternal war, because were not going to accept those "eternal sanctions." We've said that. Our mind isnt going to change. Either the 90% gets changed, (is that really a big deal?) or you get to stay getting screwed by an eternal war you engendered. Oh wait, OV doesnt have a say in how to end the war OV started.

Edited June 30, 2009 by muffasamini

[Lord Valleo]

Hmm I can asure you that we will be here in a year. Our side is doing pretty well now. We survived one year; why warring with NPO should gives us troubles with second year? And eternal war.... We have no problems with it; question is, do you guys have?

Ok, I guess you are missing the point. "Your side" is winning, sure, but will this really guarantee the existance of OV a year from now? IMO, not hardly.

[Hydro]

You are assuming of course that a gaggle of alliances that generally dislike each other and are only united in their even greater dislike of us could keep up such a vindictive charade for that long.

Keeping the NPO down has nothing to do with emotions. It is simply the logical thing to do, because anyone with half a brain knows that the NPO will try and wipe out any alliance that was responsible for its downfall. To be frank, if I were in charge here I wouldn't even bother offering the NPO surrender terms and would instead form a cyclic attack schedule for the KARMA alliances fighting the NPO, so that every month someone new could keep hammering away at the NPO until it disbanded. I could understand how that might piss a lot of people off, but when it comes down to it, the strategic advantages of an NPO free world would simply be too great for the KARMA alliances currently fighting Pacifica to not take action. That said, it's fairly obvious that the NPO will still be allowed to continue playing (which is an enormous strategical error on KARMA's part imho) and it will be allowed to pursue its vengeance on its own terms.

edit: Ok, keeping the NPO down does have alot to do with emotions for some people, but I'm assuming they don't come into play here iinstead of logic and reason.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Hydro

[Gandroff]

Keeping the NPO down has nothing to do with emotions. It is simply the logical thing to do, because anyone with half a brain knows that the NPO will try and wipe out any alliance that was responsible for its downfall. To be frank, if I were in charge here I wouldn't even bother offering the NPO surrender terms and would instead form a cyclic attack schedule for the KARMA alliances fighting the NPO, so that every month someone new could keep hammering away at the NPO until it disbanded. I could understand how that might piss a lot of people off, but when it comes down to it, the strategic advantages of an NPO free world would simply be too great for the KARMA alliances currently fighting Pacifica to not take action. That said, it's fairly obvious that the NPO will still be allowed to continue playing (which is an enormous strategical error on KARMA's part imho) and it will be allowed to pursue its vengeance on its own terms.

edit: Ok, keeping the NPO down does have alot to do with emotions for some people, but I'm assuming they don't come into play here iinstead of logic and reason.

We have been beaten down 9 sanction spots, have few allies left, and a majority of the world hates us. This is not GW1. I don't care how many times you say it, but thinking we are going to come back and kill 18 alliances is absurd.

The only reason GW1 is even brought up is as a reason to keep attacking us.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Gandroff

[sethb]

No, your facing eternal war, because were not going to accept those "eternal sanctions." We've said that. Our mind isnt going to change. Either the 90% gets changed, (is that really a big deal?) or you get to stay getting screwed by an eternal war you engendered. Oh wait, OV doesnt have a say in how to end the war OV started.

Ahhh, Please link me to the OV DoW.

[Lord Valleo]

Keeping the NPO down has nothing to do with emotions. It is simply the logical thing to do, because anyone with half a brain knows that the NPO will try and wipe out any alliance that was responsible for its downfall. To be frank, if I were in charge here I wouldn't even bother offering the NPO surrender terms and would instead form a cyclic attack schedule for the KARMA alliances fighting the NPO, so that every month someone new could keep hammering away at the NPO until it disbanded. I could understand how that might piss a lot of people off, but when it comes down to it, the strategic advantages of an NPO free world would simply be too great for the KARMA alliances currently fighting Pacifica to not take action. That said, it's fairly obvious that the NPO will still be allowed to continue playing (which is an enormous strategical error on KARMA's part imho) and it will be allowed to pursue its vengeance on its own terms.

edit: Ok, keeping the NPO down does have alot to do with emotions for some people, but I'm assuming they don't come into play here iinstead of logic and reason.

Actually, yes your are right. This war has everything to do with emotions. It continues past the point of Karma's CB that keeps changing as it pertains what has been done in the past and fear of what we may do in the future, all of which is beyond logic and reason.

Ahhh, Please link me to the OV DoW.

I don't have to even look for link, as OV has never had the wherewithal to make such on their own

[sethb]

Can you maybe try and come up with your own argument instead of repeating Cortath's?

[Baldr]

You demanded that all GATO nations leave peace mode, and they complied. Now Karma is demanding that 90% of all NPO nations leave peace mode.

These GATO nations that were forced to leave peace mode, what happened to them? Were they ZI'd? Were they nuked for 2 or 3 weeks? I'm honestly not sure, but I don't believe they were destroyed, as Karma plans to do to our banks.

Was GATO forced to give NPO tons of money and tech? (That one is rhetorical, as I know that we paid them for the tech they sent us, at better rates than we were paying our own tech sellers at the time.)

These demands are "We get to nuke down the nations who we haven't already beat down, then we demand reps much larger than Planet Bob has ever seen before, and we tie your hands with limits on who can pay those reps. In the meantime, most of your aid slots must be used to send to Karma nations at all times, so the rest of your alliance is not only not allowed to pay the reps, but they aren't allowed to use their aid slots for rebuilding.

And if we aren't careful to make sure that we have more aid slots in use for Karma reps than rebuilding, if we don't make the minimum rep payment (very easy to miss the first month) or if Karma can find any other excuse, then it's back to full war.

Many Karma members have stated that they want the NPO completely destroyed. The "peace" offer we've seen so far is designed to make that happen. And none of you can understand why the NPO won't just say "Sure, Karma, nuke the rest of us, give us any terms you want, we'll help you".

You're forgetting the part where their banks hiding in other AAs (MCXA applicant jman3478 of Libya, I'm looking at you) suddenly send out 6 aid packages and then attack a Ragnarok nation. Wonder how many other banks they have hiding out there.

I believe he left the NPO, aided some friends, and started fighting. I'm not positive, but that's my guess.

Regardless, when he *declared* a war, pretending that he's "hiding" is a bunch of nonsense.

No it's not hard, but NPO doesn't really have a say in the terms. There are two options: Accept them or Deny them, there is really no negotiation to be had.

Karma keeps saying "no negotiation is possible", and then complaining "OMG, Moo posted on the forums about why NPO didn't accept the terms! That's whining! NPO should have negotiated with us!". We tried to negotiate. We offered *higher* rep payments. We were told "No Negotiation", just as you've said here. And we haven't accepted the terms.

If Karma wants all the tech and money that they are demanding, they'll have to come to an agreement with NPO. The NPO would certainly like to find a way to end this war. We've been beat black and blue and we know it. But if the only terms we are offered end up as "Let us nuke down the entire alliance, then pay huge reps for awhile, then get attacked again for failing to meet the impossible terms" then the war will have to continue.

Personally, that's what I think Karma wants. Eternal war until the NPO no longer exists. Many Karma members have openly stated that they want the NPO completely destroyed. I believe Karma is unwilling to just come out and say that for PR reasons, so they offer terms that will either be refused, or accepted even though we won't be able to meet the terms.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Baldr