The Future of the NPO

[Tygaland]

OK, looks like we have thrown OpSec right out the window now...

[fupresti]

OK, looks like we have thrown OpSec right out the window now...

Might as well just make it official now.

I also suggest nominating ChairmanHal as John Edward of Frostbite. Get him his own pip and a magic 8-ball and we will bask in his obvious superior clairvoyance.

[Roadie]

Already, somebody make NPO disband so we can take Sir Paul captive.

[Sir Paul]

Already, somebody make NPO disband so we can take Sir Paul captive.

I'm working on it: You work on it too by voting in this thread. If everyone votes yes, then the NPO will have to disband. That's how CN works.

But seriously, it was really nice of MK to use their graphic skills to add Franco's Star to the Frostbite logo. I think people are really going to like it.

[Fallen Fool]

Ahh...but let's look at history.

The division between the Orders started because of the controversy surrounding Ivan's brief ascension at NPO in August 2007. It was further aggravated by Electron Sponge until finally in 2008 the OoO was dissolved.

The division between the Orders started in the post-GWIII era when several members of the Pacifican "Old Guard" (hereafter defined as members of NPO's government before June 2006) grew increasingly disgruntled with what they saw as Moos ineffectual leadership in the face of the growing power of sub-factions within NPO, and NPO's general ambivalent attitude to the growing power of what would become the Unjust Path. After several of what they viewed as failed attempts to force Moo into handling the issues on his own initiative, those members of the "Old Guard" took matters to the next level and pressured him into resigning.

What followed were the events of August 2007. From there on in, despite a public reconciliation of sorts, the private divide between the Orders was complete as mutual bitterness, loathing, and distrust dominated significant portions of the leadership of both sides up until the point where neither side could agree on any meaningful action due to the large elephant present in every inter-Order meeting room.

Those feelings simmered beneath the surface until finally the events of June-July 2008 caused them to erupt once again. The end result of that was that many of the issues of August 2007 finally fell by the wayside and in turn were replaced by a whole new set of issues which, like the issues of August 2007, largely were suppressed (Pacifica didn't think it did anything wrong/Grub, and partially me, wanted them squashed as counter-productive to our short term goals of survival and the ultimate goal of real reconciliation with Pacifica). This suppression lasted until the recent Karma war when, due to NPO's actions in regards to both its allies and the war overall, Grub canceled the treaty with NPO.

So tl;dr?

The Orders have a huge $@! set of issues which neither side wants to make enough concessions to the other side on which, in turn, prevents real reconciliation.

With a "friendlier" government in place, there are no longer any obstacles to the Orders being reunited.

The only way I ever see the Orders reconciling at this point is if NPO's leadership undergoes a housecleaning akin to what Polar went through last summer (which I doubt they will), and then proceeded to make real, significant efforts to placate most regular Polars feelings of victimization (which again I doubt they will because, as I understand it, they feel they never did anything wrong by Polar).

BTW, how many shots in anger did NPO fire at Polaris?

Polar signed with the leader of Karma and NPO Hater Extraordinaire Bizzaro-Moo (Tygaland), the Pacifican Anti-Christ (Sponge), and its greatest traitor ever (Ivan). At this point, the rank-and-file Polar members issues aside, I think Pacifica feels that Polar is taking more shots at them that need to be accounted for then vice-versa.

or STA?

As I understand it, Pacifican-Siberian relations were never overly rosy before the Second Patriotic War. Since then Pacifica canceled its MDP with STA in its time of greatest need and Tygaland became Bizzaro-Moo leader of Karma.

So, yeah I don't think there's a lot of love (or even apathy) there. Probably more like grim faces on both sides.

NSO wasn't around

I recall a lot of Pacificans being pissed off in private at NSO's formation as a slap in the face to them. If their views have changed, I have not become aware of it. Edited June 18, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[Ghostlin]

What will be of the NPO after this war?

A defeated, probably angry alliance that is still quite large, but no longer holds the body politic.

What kind of changes do you see the NPO will do after this war?

Expect to see IO changes as folks get thrown under buses for the Karma failure. Unless there is a Pacifica uprising, however, Moo is safe.

Will the NPO play a role on the next war? If so, in what capacity?

If they do, it'll be in the capacity of divide and conquer.

Will there be an alliance that is willing to sign a treaty with the NPO, If so, which ones?

Odds are the ones that suffered most from Pacifica entering this war and sticking with them will remain the most loyal. However, NPO won't have a bloc except maybe to swing the next war. (See above.)

Do you see any Karma alliance being allied with the NPO? If so, who and why?

NPO will propose an alliance with one or more Karma alliances. I'm sure some will stick in a few months, probably in the six to nine month time frame when NPO is written off.

Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?

Everyone. From Karma to the folks in Hegemony who bowed out early to leave NPO to their fate.

Will the NPO disband?

Probably not. Too much invested. Too much to live for, hatred is more powerful than loyalty when it comes to these things.

Will there be a leadership change in the NPO?

Some IOs will get thrown under buses. Expect their military command to change. Like, I said, barring an uprising (which I give a 5% chance of happening, tops) Moo's safe.

Do you want to see a leadership change in the NPO? If so? Who do you want to lead it?

Possibly, but I wonder if the attitude is too far gone for anyone to do any good.

What kind of political influence the NPO have left towards the CN community? Do they still have any?

Now, no, except with Hegemonists that have lost an equal amount. However, NPO has nothing but time if they take surrender terms, and the more harsh the terms, the more likely NPO will be left alone.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Ghostlin

[KainIIIC]

Will the NPO play a role on the next war? If so, in what capacity?

It depends on the time. If it is pretty soon after the war and peace terms are given and war breaks out in say December, they'll probably waffle awhile, see the views of their remaining allies, and try to join the war on the winning side, or perhaps only play a peripheral role. I'd see the biggest links into the war for them are through Polar & Frostbite (which would make strange but interesting bedfellows), MHA & The Citadel (again, more interesting bedfellows), or whichever side Purple/IRON/former hegemony sides on (which could be either, or they could abstain).

Will there be an alliance that is willing to sign a treaty with the NPO, If so, which ones?

I doubt that the NPO will get involved in a major web of alliances. Currently, they are in best standing with the Purple sphere as a whole, and probably Orange next.

Do you see any Karma alliance being allied with the NPO? If so, who and why?

Perhaps some peripheral alliances, again, but likely not core of Karma (which I consider SF+C&G+Gram+Sparta).

Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?

Whoever is easiest to take down, is the first answer. In the pacifican view, they kind of deserved the attack by C&G, they've made natural enemies with SF, they still have decent ties with alliances of the citadel (minus Gramlins) and MHA. I think, in their view, the biggest backstabbers of all alliances was probably Sparta.

Will the NPO disband?

no. way. in. hell.

Will there be a leadership change in the NPO?

Probably, but moreso cosmetic than fundamental change.

Edited June 18, 2009 by KainIIIC

[Roadie]

I'm working on it: You work on it too by voting in this thread. If everyone votes yes, then the NPO will have to disband. That's how CN works.

But seriously, it was really nice of MK to use their graphic skills to add Franco's Star to the Frostbite logo. I think people are really going to like it.

That does it. TPF is taking Sir Paul home. His brainwashing commences this weekend and by Monday we'll have him working his OWF magic for us.

Sorry, NPO. He's a keeper.

[Fallen Fool]

What will be of the NPO after this war?

Um..

They'll still be what they've always been?

What kind of changes do you see the NPO will do after this war?

None really.

Will the NPO play a role on the next war? If so, in what capacity?

Probably.

If I had to haphazard a guess based on what little I know today, I'd say they'd try something like FAN did in the Unjust War.

Will there be an alliance that is willing to sign a treaty with the NPO, If so, which ones?

Sure.

Echelon, IRON, TOP, Valhalla, TSO, and TPF are a few of the alliances I suspect will remain allied/re-ally NPO sometime down the road.

Do you see any Karma alliance being allied with the NPO? If so, who and why?

Sure.

I think TOP seems most likely, though I think they might claim that they aren't part of Karma.

Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?

Absolutely.

I am positive they will seek vengeance on all of us (Karma, non-Karma, and ex-Hegemony alike) in one way or another.

Will the NPO disband?

Oh hell no.

Will there be a leadership change in the NPO?

Doubtful.

Do you want to see a leadership change in the NPO? If so? Who do you want to lead it?

Sure why not. To be honest I'm not really a fan of long, long reigns in any alliance or department because I think it leads to inevitable stagnation, and decline.

As for who I'd have lead it...well I don't know heh. Most of the people I'd suggest would probably either turn it down, or laugh at me for mentioning them (or probably aren't really on speaking terms with me at the moment ). So I guess I'll leave that blank? >_>

What kind of political influence the NPO have left towards the CN community? Do they still have any?

Very lttle overt influence. Behind the scenes though I'm sure they could still pull a few string on minor issues due to personal relationships their leadership still has with the "New Hegemony."

[Uhtred]

Ahh...but let's look at history.

The division between the Orders started because of the controversy surrounding Ivan's brief ascension at NPO in August 2007. It was further aggravated by Electron Sponge until finally in 2008 the OoO was dissolved. With a "friendlier" government in place, there are no longer any obstacles to the Orders being reunited.

Yet you ignore all recent history. Grub and his government went to great lengths to mend bridges but in the end NPO only wanted a relationship with a subservient alliance which Polar was unwilling to be, thus the recent treaty cancellation. Therefore I can only assume that by '"friendlier" government in place' you were suggesting a complete overhaul in the NPO's government.

BTW, how many shots in anger did NPO fire at Polaris? or STA? NSO wasn't around...not to worry though, it's the same number for all three. No, it's very safe to say that there is more hatred felt by STA for NPO's proxies as a result of that war last year than for NPO.

Ah, the old 'NPO didn't directly attack Polar or STA' defence. It's never worked before and it still won't now. The NPO was revealed to be the main hand behind the plotting against Polar (and therefore by association against the STA too) during the buildup to the war and in the war itself. The proxies, as you call them, attacked both Polar and the STA with the NPO's full blessing and support. Pacifica may not have shot at us in the front but it certainly stabbed us in the back.

I will grant you that NPO is currently damaged goods. It would therefore not be in the best interest of Polaris or the rest of Frostbite to come forward in defense of NPO or even pretend to like them them at this point. If you are looking longer term and assuming that NPO actually gets peace and someday exits terms, the fit is a natural one and I'm confident that Ivan has already thought about...why? Because I'm thinking it now, and I've not seen a move yet that Ivan has made that I would not have. That's a compliment by the way, I have been impressed by him. He's lived up to his legend.

Yeah that's right, the contempt held for the NPO by Frostbite must all be a cunning ruse to hide our hand before we forget about the slights against our alliances and buddy up with them as though the last three years never happened.

The question is: will NPO be interested? If they are truly interested in going a completely new direction, then no.

Seriously, does this much arrogance come naturally to you or do you have to work on it? Assuming Frostbite's support for the NPO's initiation is assuming too much, Hal. Besides, every signatory of Frostbite split from the NPO at some point or other because each signatory chose a completely different direction from Pacifica - it's amusing to see you pretend otherwise.

Edit: Damnit, guys. How the hell am I supposed to keep denying this if you straight away go and announce the plans to re-align with NPO? )):

Edited June 18, 2009 by Uhtred

[Seerow]

I'm confident that Ivan has already thought about...why? Because I'm thinking it now, and I've not seen a move yet that Ivan has made that I would not have. That's a compliment by the way, I have been impressed by him. He's lived up to his legend.

I can't explain how or why, but this comment made me smile.

[Doitzel]

Already, somebody make NPO disband so we can take Sir Paul captive.

If I've said it once I've said it a million times -- if Dad manages to burn the place down, he's going in a nursing home. I think his senility is just too great to allow for normal human interaction.

[Daimos]

Hi Daimos,

Are you new or returning?

I am fairly new to the game. Registered on February, joined the NPO soon after. Found the game boring at first but this war, the history leading up to it and the political intrigue that goes on at this forum has rekindled my interest in the game.

These are interesting times and looks like I got on board just in time.

Let the war and intrigue continue. I am hook!

PS.

To all Karma nations I have fought and will fight during this war. I bear no ill will, I take nothing personal in this game. I have no vendetta against you. We are in this war because we fight for our alliance and our nation. To me, it is as simple as that.

“I will rest when I die”

[Tygaland]

Seriously, does this much arrogance come naturally to you or do you have to work on it? Assuming Frostbite's support for the NPO's initiation is assuming too much, Hal. Besides, every signatory of Frostbite split from the NPO at some point or other because each signatory chose a completely different direction from Pacifica - it's amusing to see you pretend otherwise.

ChairmanHal speaketh, so it must be. He has never been wrong in the past, right?

But, yes, it takes some arrogance to make something up and then refer to it moments later as accepted fact on which a further story is based.

Edit: Damnit, guys. How the hell am I supposed to keep denying this if you straight away go and announce the plans to re-align with NPO? )):

My poker-face just isn't that good.

[Master-Debater]

What will be of the NPO after this war?

What kind of changes do you see the NPO will do after this war?

None

Will the NPO play a role on the next war? If so, in what capacity?

Nope

Will there be an alliance that is willing to sign a treaty with the NPO, If so, which ones?

Very few but there will be some

Do you see any Karma alliance being allied with the NPO? If so, who and why?

No way

Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?

Yes they will. They have a history of it.

Theyll target everyone.

Will the NPO disband?

Doubt it

Will there be a leadership change in the NPO?

Sadly no

Do you want to see a leadership change in the NPO? If so? Who do you want to lead it?

Yes it needs to change.

The IOs and Moo need to get the boot.

Mary should be emperor.

What kind of political influence the NPO have left towards the CN community? Do they still have any?

NPO has little to none at this point. Everyone sees them for what they are and anyone whos still trying to say they arent is blnd.

[Vol Navy]

What will be of the NPO after this war?

A large alliance, be back at #1 within a year if someone doesn't attack them. Actually I think someone will. To much hate for 1 war to be enough.

What kind of changes do you see the NPO will do after this war?

They will have to handle foreign policy differently. This war showed them that they had quite a few "allies" that were only there on paper and who only stayed as long as they could advance themselves via NPO's aggressive realpolitik. So they will have to abandon their aggressive way of dealing with things and find true friends.

Will the NPO play a role on the next war? If so, in what capacity?

Only if the next war is another alliance or two declaring on them once their protection period is over. Right now that wouldn't surprise me at all. But it also wouldn't surprise me to see a war break out before NPO reaches terms with Karma.

Will there be an alliance that is willing to sign a treaty with the NPO, If so, which ones?

Yes, there will be plenty. Plenty of people are always willing to sign with large alliances. NPO will be a large alliance unless they are forced into a years long war.

Do you see any Karma alliance being allied with the NPO? If so, who and why?

Of course. A good portion of Karma did this for power and not vengence. If NPO in the future allows them to hold and secure that power in some way they'll be knocking at the door, treaty in hand.

Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?

If they do (and really, as Karma as shown, a lot of what happens on Bob boils down to vengence) it will take a long time. Barring some form of major war where they are approached by one side to tip the balance, it will be years before they are in a position to do a whole lot.

Will the NPO disband?

Not likely.

Will there be a leadership change in the NPO?

If that's what they want. But they can do as they please with their internal govt.

Do you want to see a leadership change in the NPO? If so? Who do you want to lead it?

As above, I don't care. That's up to their membership.

What kind of political influence the NPO have left towards the CN community? Do they still have any?

CN has two major motivating forces, the need for revenge and the lust for power. As long as they have hundreds of members they will wield power. They could prove the tipping point in the next big conflict be that conflict someone seeking the top, trying to hold onto the top or just seeking revenge. They will be courted even if Karma won't admit it right now. A good many of the Karma forces have already shown they can stomach being allied to Pacifica just fine if they are achieving their goals while allied to them.

[muffasamini]

What will be of the NPO after this war?

We will still be sanctioned, but at the very bottom (we have too many members to loose sanction, just look at our "growth" charts, we cant get much lower). Quietly rebuilding and paying reps.

What kind of changes do you see the NPO will do after this war?

We set up our alliance image as the global despot to keep the little guy down, that will probably change. We will most likely begin looking for who our real freinds are in this new world.

Will the NPO play a role on the next war? If so, in what capacity?

No.

Will there be an alliance that is willing to sign a treaty with the NPO, If so, which ones?

Not many soon. But eventually.

Do you see any Karma alliance being allied with the NPO? If so, who and why?

All things change in time.

Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?

No. Were not going to sit there and plot revenge. The NPO is not going to open a hit list on our forum and plot to take down ebil alliances. However, people reap only what they sow.

Karma is a wheel.

Will the NPO disband?

No

Will there be a leadership change in the NPO?

No, we know why this has happened, and fixing it does not require leadership changes, which happen dynamically anyway.

Do you want to see a leadership change in the NPO? If so? Who do you want to lead it?

Theres already been several in recent months, I am happy where we are.

What kind of political influence the NPO have left towards the CN community? Do they still have any?

None.

Edited June 18, 2009 by muffasamini

[Lord of the Port]

What will be of the NPO after this war?

At the current rate, there will not be an after this war.

What kind of changes do you see the NPO will do after this war?

See previous answer.

Will the NPO play a role on the next war? If so, in what capacity?

Assuming two wars can happen in the same time, the later started war being referred to as 'next war': probably not.

Will there be an alliance that is willing to sign a treaty with the NPO, If so, which ones?

Would that be a first, a treaty signed during the war?.

Do you see any Karma alliance being allied with the NPO? If so, who and why?

No.

Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?

Yes. All of Karma.

Will the NPO disband?

Never.

Will there be a leadership change in the NPO?

Only if Moo wills it.

Do you want to see a leadership change in the NPO? If so? Who do you want to lead it?

I do not want a new leadership.

What kind of political influence the NPO have left towards the CN community? Do they still have any?

Yes, we have.

Feel free to answer all or some of the questions I post. I might come here and add more questions if I think of something good to ask.

Please edit the opening post in such a case.

[Tromp]

Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?

Yes. All of Karma.

Hello Phoib.

Answers like these are making me feel uncomfortable, you really want to make me feel like that?

(lol)

[Haflinger]

lol

NPO joins Frostbite right after ODN does.

[Glen MoP]

What will be of the NPO after this war?

The NPO will still be sanctioned, but at the very bottom.

What kind of changes do you see the NPO will do after this war?

The NPO's approach to diplomacy will make a significant change. The internal mood of the members of NPO is going to mean a kindler, gentler NPO, one that is less aggressive and less interested in purely on-paper treaty entanglements.

Will the NPO play a role on the next war? If so, in what capacity?

The NPO won't be involved in the next war unless someone attacks them or TPF. The NPO will go to great lengths for TPF after the steadfastness TPF has shown in this war.

Will there be an alliance that is willing to sign a treaty with the NPO, If so, which ones?

The new Red alliances will probably sign treaties with the NPO as they try to promote the whole "Red Team Alliances" thing.

Do you see any Karma alliance being allied with the NPO? If so, who and why?

I can see some of the Karma alliances coming to the NPO for treaties when the next "Lines being drawn" phase occurs. It is likely the NPO will say "no thank you" and sit out the next round of wars, though.

Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?

No. The general mood at the NPO really doesn't support wide-arching revenge these days. People more seem to be, "We lost. Crap happens. Let's move on."

Will the NPO disband?

No, definitely not.

Will there be a leadership change in the NPO?

Unlikely, but not impossible. If there is, the primary motivation will be that people have finally gotten their "epic war" and move on from CN in general and need to be replaced. For some people, this war has been the final apocalyptic battle of their CN career, and they're just hanging around to see it to its conclusion. They'll drift away once the war (some may also stay to finish reps) is concluded.

Do you want to see a leadership change in the NPO? If so? Who do you want to lead it?

I'm fairly ambivalent. I'm more interested in seeing that the average member stays as engaged as this war has made him.

What kind of political influence the NPO have left towards the CN community? Do they still have any?

Directly, none. However, they still have huge "name draw." Just like having David Hasselhoff show up will draw a crowd even if people hate Baywatch and Knight Rider, any thread about the NPO still draws a crowd. This will continue for some time.

[steodonn]

See the after math of GW1

[John Michaels]

What will be of the NPO after this war?

Provided, of course, that there is an end to this war, I see them regaining much of their lost NS and rebuilding their nations. Despite their calculations which state there is no way they will ever pay these terms off ever ever ever ever ever ever it's very possible to do so and rebuild at the same time. They will rebound at a pace that will surprise many, but will fall short of their pre-war numbers

What kind of changes do you see the NPO will do after this war?

They'll go for a "Kinder, gentler NPO" kind of feel to sucker anyone who hasn't played this game for long enough. I do expect there will be some soul-searching amongst NPO members, but I think that their loss is going to be blamed on their allies who abandoned them on the field of battle, and not the incompetent leadership who put them in this place. Any changes are merely going to be the shuffling of deck chairs on the Titanic: the current leadership of the alliance is too power-hungry to give their positions up to more worthy Pacificans, too arrogant to recognize their own base incompetence. In short, I don't think they'll they be making any changes worth noting, but instead try to convince everyone else they have; in other words, just like after GWI.

Will the NPO play a role on the next war? If so, in what capacity?

If this war ends by that point, I don't see it happening. If they are still fighting, expect to see them try to use it as an opportunity to try and escape peace terms

Will there be an alliance that is willing to sign a treaty with the NPO, If so, which ones?

I think there might be a few newer alliances that get suckered into signing with them, but for the most part I don't see anyone who's been playing for any length of time to be that thick. Things are, hopefully, different than after GWI, and people will realize just how destructive allying with the NPO ultimately is.

Do you see any Karma alliance being allied with the NPO? If so, who and why?

No.

Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?

Absolutely. They have a long and proud tradition of holding petty grudges against people for years, in private if necessary to exact revenge. Expect them to target any of their allies who turned on them, and any especially any alliance of Karma.

Will the NPO disband?

No.

Will there be a leadership change in the NPO?

No.

Do you want to see a leadership change in the NPO? If so? Who do you want to lead it?

In all honesty, I don't mind if the same pack of numbskulls keep leading the alliance down the path to ruin.

What kind of political influence the NPO have left towards the CN community? Do they still have any?

They still have some military treaties, although they're moreso formalities at this point. In other words, they have very little political influence anymore, because the war has so isolated them.

[Pingu]

NPO joins Frostbite right after ODN does.

Did you let this slip as well, Tyga? Frostbite OPSEC is laughable. We might have to reconsider your offer of membership.

[Lord of the Port]

Hello Phoib.

Answers like these are making me feel uncomfortable, you really want to make me feel like that?

(lol)

We should discuss that over a glass of port. Beer is an option too.

And bitterballen. Those aren't negotiable, I'm afraid