NPO's Reps - An attempted unbiased View

[Cortath]

My math is here. I invite those interested to read that post.

[Drostan]

How many million do you think it takes to buy back 6k infra? Let's not be ridiculous here. While I feel that 90% may be a high figure to be shooting for some of NPO will have to exit peace mode before surrender is accepted.

[Viluin]

Don't forget about all the NPO nations that need aid to get out of bill lock and rebuild. That takes some time too and it has priority, you can't just leave nations bill locked for half a year.

NPO were the #1 alliance in the game before this war, you dont just get there by luck.

if they bite the bullet now and take the terms offered there's no reason they cant climb back up, its just a question of whether or not they will drag out the fighting and further reduce their power base.

I personally don't think prolonging this war hurts us all that much at this point, we've already been beaten down to the point where the ones out of peace mode don't really have anything of value anymore, but we're sure as hell doing a ton of damage to our enemies with our nukes and military wonders.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Viluin

[Rajistani]

Only in the very first two weeks of war, when Pacifica's total technology was dispersed amongst over 900 nations did your alliance lose technology that quickly. Even if every single nation currently in peace mode comes out and fights, it is highly unlikely, at this stage of the conflict, 150,000 technology will be destroyed in just two weeks. All public calculations from Pacificans declaring how dramatic their losses would be from two weeks of fighting have each made the assumption that every single ground, air and missile attack will be successful. Anyone that has had the least bit of experience with the CN battle system would realise that even when you're fighting against the odds, there are plenty of times where you successfully defend yourself and greatly limit damage.

Its not going to be for only 14 days, as outlined in the post, that would mean 90% efficiency (somewhere it was stated that this is 7 nations still in peace mode), most likely that will not happen.

Your maths are wrong imo.

Let's look at it at a 5k infra nation's view.

(Collection - Taxes) per one day > 3000000

Every 10 days, you have 30 mil to spent/send as reps. (And that's a minimum, a 5k infra nation earns a LOT more!)

I took into account that nations with a war chest over 50 million at the END of the 14 days will be able to build back up to 5k infra. And that they will be able to send out 3 million indefinitely.

50 tech costs 800k (if you have sent all your current tech)

You can send 15 mil and 250 tech every 10 days. Total cost about 20 mil needed every 10 days if you don't have any tech left.

It has to be paid by nations over 1,000 tech level.

Now, you definitely have some warchest yourself to spend. I know how nations work so they do have all the money needed at the right time.

You saying that you don't have the money or tech at this moment is irrelevant. As days pass, your nations will collect taxes and therefore, you will have all the money needed to pay the reps.

Also, you won't have enough slots to pay the reps in one day even if you had all the money and tech today. Just pay the reps, you can do it and you will have enough left.

Your MoF just has to organise stuff to pay the reps just as planned. Hey, I could help you do it if you ask. I have done it before.

I don't see where this "your" comes from, since I am not NPO, and also collecting while being nuked daily is not much of a collect, dunno if you know.

Now, maths.

300000 tech - 6000 slots

7 bil - 2334 slots

It will take 6000 slots to pay all the reps. 2334 slots will be 3 mil + 50 tech.

180 members to pay it ---> 34 slots per member.

One nation has 5 aid slots (or 6) - 7 cycles to pay the reps. It is 2-3 months! Why the hell are you whining here? You kept GATO under terms for a whole year!

Edit: and if your nation DOES receive a beating, your warchest should cover at least the first 2 cycles. And you can regrow a bit in that time.

Even if there are 90 people left with large enough nations, 4-6 months is not a long time. Besides, the other nations can start regrowing on their own.

This doesn't take into account that nations over 1,000 tech will have to pay the reps. Also, its not "2 cycles" NPO would have been at war for 11 cycles if they signed the terms yesterday. As of now, who knows?

the ones who have 1000 infra at the moment...

7 x 250 tech = 1750

I'm sure an average NPO member can pay that.

For the 3 mil packages, I'm sure there will be more than enough members left after the 2 weeks of fighting.

And 300,000/1750 = 1200 tech cycles, which means 12,000 days. You want NPO to pay reps for 4 years?

Actually,

Although I would agree that Karma likely won't change its stance on requiring most of the NPO to exit peace mode first, I do not believe 2 weeks of war is the reason behind the NPO's refusal. From what I can tell in the original thread, NPO is concerned that Karma will use the 90% figure to ensure that the Pacificans exiting peace mode gets beaten up for prolonged periods. And this is something that the NPO should have talked to Karma about. Something could have been worked out or clarified regarding the logisitical difficulties of moving virtually everyone out of peace mode and the conditions under which the timer could have started.

Aye, that seems to be their main concern.

My math is here. I invite those interested to read that post.

Yours calculates the amount of damage, and the ability to pay reps; mine is to calculate how long the reps would take if signed.

[Dochartaigh]

well this certainly sounds somewhat familiar. didn't NPO pull some weak crap with FAN over peace terms that ended up in what 2 years or so of war?

i am seriously getting amused at NPO and their allies thinking that NPO does not deserve stuff like this since NPO has pulled similar stuff in the past. GATO and viceroy for a year.

Surrender terms to FAN meant to get them right back into war just before terms were up.

Indefinite war against FAN that was only stopped due to this war.

am i or anyone else seriously supposed to feel sorry for NPO after having watched them for the past 3 years and have seen them ditch "brothers" and other allies left, right, and center? Or watched them ride roughshod or allow their allies to ride roughshod over much of Planet bob? please.

all i have to say is NPO needs to man up and realize that this is everything they deserve.

[Ogaden]

well this certainly sounds somewhat familiar. didn't NPO pull some weak crap with FAN over peace terms that ended up in what 2 years or so of war?

i am seriously getting amused at NPO and their allies thinking that NPO does not deserve stuff like this since NPO has pulled similar stuff in the past. GATO and viceroy for a year.

Surrender terms to FAN meant to get them right back into war just before terms were up.

Indefinite war against FAN that was only stopped due to this war.

am i or anyone else seriously supposed to feel sorry for NPO after having watched them for the past 3 years and have seen them ditch "brothers" and other allies left, right, and center? Or watched them ride roughshod or allow their allies to ride roughshod over much of Planet bob? please.

all i have to say is NPO needs to man up and realize that this is everything they deserve.

This is a fine example of a the sort of foolish arrogance that we are so often accused of.

Hopefully I will still be around in the game by the time this sort of talk comes back to haunt you.

[Rebel Virginia]

Wait, wait, wait, hold on a minute. Did I read this right, but does Karma want to continue the war while NPO is paying reps? Attack those who were formerly in peace mode while they are sending out money? Is that right?

[Qaianna]

Wait, wait, wait, hold on a minute. Did I read this right, but does Karma want to continue the war while NPO is paying reps? Attack those who were formerly in peace mode while they are sending out money? Is that right?

From the terms I read, it seems that the sequence is supposed to be:

-The Order signs the peace terms.

-The Order somehow gets 90% of its big nations (70 when I counted ten hours ago, so 63) and 90% of its total membership (731) into war mode. During this time, anyone who does make it out of war mode gets attacked as vigorously as the warriors can manage. (I'll disagree with 4-on-1s, since I can't imagine the Order actually suggesting offensive declarations, but 3-on-1 is likely.)

-The day AFTER that happens, a 2 week countdown to ending the actual war starts.

-After the two weeks, everyone stops attacking.

-THEN the Order starts paying.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[Nintenderek]

tl;dr it will take NPO 1.8 years to pay reps if using 100% of slots.

That's the point of the terms

[Alterego]

From the terms I read, it seems that the sequence is supposed to be:

-The Order signs the peace terms.

-The Order somehow gets 90% of its big nations (70 when I counted ten hours ago, so 63) and 90% of its total membership (731) into war mode. During this time, anyone who does make it out of war mode gets attacked as vigorously as the warriors can manage. (I'll disagree with 4-on-1s, since I can't imagine the Order actually suggesting offensive declarations, but 3-on-1 is likely.)

-The day AFTER that happens, a 2 week countdown to ending the actual war starts.

-After the two weeks, everyone stops attacking.

-THEN the Order starts paying.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

I think the clock doesnt start until they get all 90% out. Thats assuming anyone still believes karma will stop after 2 weeks. I wouldnt bet on it!

That's the point of the terms

Your high horse is long gone I see. Should be fun the next time you are looking for reps.

[Nintenderek]

Your high horse is long gone I see. Should be fun the next time you are looking for reps.

Hey, I have never been a fan of huge terms. I enjoyed seeing so much white peace in this war. However, I do think that the alliances that were part of Q and 1V should have been given normal terms, and that NPO should be given the type of terms they would give if they were in Karma's shoes. If NPO was winning this war, most likely they would be giving similar terms to the alliances at war with them. NPO has proven before that white peace doesn't work on them. They came back to destroy all the alliances that gave them that white peace.

There is a time for morals. There is also a time for logic. This is the time for logic.

Also, don't tell me about who has the high horse. You sure didn't seem to care when NPO was the one giving GPA the largest terms in history.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Rebel Virginia]

That's the point of the terms

I don't care who you are, but nearly two years of terms is simply unacceptable. I'm not saying the NPO is innocent of anything they've been accused of, but I thought the point of this war was to show that we're better than them. And now, here we are, doing exactly what we criticized them for. Call it Karma or payback if you want. Try to justify it if you must. But there is none.

[TypoNinja]

Wait, wait, wait, hold on a minute. Did I read this right, but does Karma want to continue the war while NPO is paying reps? Attack those who were formerly in peace mode while they are sending out money? Is that right?

No, they terms include the NPO banks who have sat on the side lines this whole time getting two weeks of war, THEN the fighting stops and rep payments begin.

PS. If a self professed bank isn't sitting on on a war chest large enough to war for 2 weeks and then rebuild themselves, said bank is weapons grade stupid.

My numbers on the reps are a wee bit more interesting.

We currently see the first three pages on NPO nations in peace mode. So let us go with the number of 60 banks just for the reps, any other nations able can help with the rebuilding of the alliance right away. Let us also assume that each nation has a DRA, NPO tells us that combat orders mean only banks are allowed to be in peace mode longer than the 5 day minimum, so again any bank without a DRA is a pretty poor excuse for a bank.

7 billion / 60 nations = $116,666,666.66~ per nation

6 aid slots * 3mil a piece = 18 mil an aid cycle

$116,666,666.66~ / 18 mil is 6.5 (i rounded up) aid cycles, or a little over two months.

The tech of course takes longer but mostly because its just harder to move tech than cash. however assuming 50 tech goes out with each cash payment about 115,000 tech is served in the same time. however thats with a very small sample size. The current number of NPO nations eligible to send tech is 181, but lets go with 150 for easy math and a lowball since who knows some people might not chip in. Now you'd also figure somebody with enough wealth to be over 1000 tech would have a DRA as well, but maybe not, in the interest of being generous we'll say only 5 aid slots for tech a nation.

150*5*50= 37,500 tech an aid cycle, or if you need it the other way 8 aid cycles to pay it off or a little under three months. If we do assume 6 aid slots for all 150 that number changes to 45,000 tech an aid cycle for 6.666~ aid cycles to pay it off. In short, the NPO could be free to terms in a hair over two months if they took the terms now and put the much vaunted Pacifican banking system to work. Also the numbers I've worked out has less than 10% of their alliance paying the cash, and about 20% of the alliance paying tech. Not exactly huge participation numbers.

Its also interesting to note that spreading the load out like that means each nation paying hits 6k tech payed total, most are holding onto well under this. It means they can buy tech from 0 as they need to send it out there by drastically reducing the cost of paying off the reps.

And finally, for the complaint about the war depleting their banks and making them unable to pay, first and foremost, if your banks are reduced to poverty after two weeks of war, your doing it wrong. And second, if Karma judges that the NPO is too beaten to pay (these are banks, if they've been banks a long time who knows, they may utterly suck at war) then its written right into the terms that the amounts can be lowered.

Edit: oh yes, it case its not obvious, the longer they fight the longer it will take them to pay off the tech portion of the reps, as more nations slip under the 1k tech mark.

Edited June 13, 2009 by TypoNinja

[Nintenderek]

I don't care who you are, but nearly two years of terms is simply unacceptable. I'm not saying the NPO is innocent of anything they've been accused of, but I thought the point of this war was to show that we're better than them. And now, here we are, doing exactly what we criticized them for. Call it Karma or payback if you want. Try to justify it if you must. But there is none.

First off, after reading the entire OP, I think it forgets something.

1. I do not believe the terms said that NPO couldn't get outside aid, just that outside aid could not help pay for it. They could rebuild. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that would help decrease the amount of time.

2. It doesn't take in to account the people in NPO's willingness to pay it off. There are some smart people in NPO when it comes to game mechanics from what I hear. They could pay this off in a shorter time then 1.8 years if they tried hard enough.

In fact, I dare someone to do this same math with the terms MK, Polar or Athens was given in the last war, or the terms GPA was given after their war, and compare it to what actually happened.

Now to RV, I don't want any more alliances getting attacked. I don't want these same alliances who are giving these terms, to be attacked later after giving white peace (which would happen if they gave anything less than this) and I don't want NPO to regrow quickly. Usually, I'd be all for the moral side of this, and if it was any other alliance or any other war, I'd be against this, but this seems fitting for all that NPO has done.

Now, if this keeps NPO at war for more then 6 months, and if 6 months later, these are still the same terms being given to NPO, then I'll be calling out for lower terms or white peace, just like everyone else. Until then, these terms are fine just the way they are. The only thing I don't like that much is the term requiring 14 days of fighting first, but even that is kinda understandable the way peace mode has been being used during this war.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Azaghul]

You underestimate the number of peace mode nations with really large warchests. You also have them only using 3 slots, using the rest for rebuilding. If they are using half of them for rebuilding, they'll be able to relatively quickly (within a month or so) build up a bunch of other nations with tons of economic improvements and wonders into banking range.

Your interpretation of the technology terms is simply incorrect, the nations have to have 1000 tech at the point the terms are signed, they don't have to have 1000 tech when paying the reps.

[shahenshah]

You underestimate the number of peace mode nations with really large warchests. You also have them only using 3 slots, using the rest for rebuilding. If they are using half of them for rebuilding, they'll be able to relatively quickly (within a month or so) build up a bunch of other nations with tons of economic improvements and wonders into banking range.

Your interpretation of the technology terms is simply incorrect, the nations have to have 1000 tech at the point the terms are signed, they don't have to have 1000 tech when paying the reps.

In your opinion Azaghul, what can be done to address one of the sticking points, that is the gap that is most likely to occur between NPO nations meeting 90% compliance and the 2 week timer starting off?

[Cortath]

No, they terms include the NPO banks who have sat on the side lines this whole time getting two weeks of war, THEN the fighting stops and rep payments begin.

PS. If a self professed bank isn't sitting on on a war chest large enough to war for 2 weeks and then rebuild themselves, said bank is weapons grade stupid.

My numbers on the reps are a wee bit more interesting.

We currently see the first three pages on NPO nations in peace mode. So let us go with the number of 60 banks just for the reps, any other nations able can help with the rebuilding of the alliance right away. Let us also assume that each nation has a DRA, NPO tells us that combat orders mean only banks are allowed to be in peace mode longer than the 5 day minimum, so again any bank without a DRA is a pretty poor excuse for a bank.

7 billion / 60 nations = $116,666,666.66~ per nation

6 aid slots * 3mil a piece = 18 mil an aid cycle

$116,666,666.66~ / 18 mil is 6.5 (i rounded up) aid cycles, or a little over two months.

The tech of course takes longer but mostly because its just harder to move tech than cash. however assuming 50 tech goes out with each cash payment about 115,000 tech is served in the same time. however thats with a very small sample size. The current number of NPO nations eligible to send tech is 181, but lets go with 150 for easy math and a lowball since who knows some people might not chip in. Now you'd also figure somebody with enough wealth to be over 1000 tech would have a DRA as well, but maybe not, in the interest of being generous we'll say only 5 aid slots for tech a nation.

150*5*50= 37,500 tech an aid cycle, or if you need it the other way 8 aid cycles to pay it off or a little under three months. If we do assume 6 aid slots for all 150 that number changes to 45,000 tech an aid cycle for 6.666~ aid cycles to pay it off. In short, the NPO could be free to terms in a hair over two months if they took the terms now and put the much vaunted Pacifican banking system to work. Also the numbers I've worked out has less than 10% of their alliance paying the cash, and about 20% of the alliance paying tech. Not exactly huge participation numbers.

Its also interesting to note that spreading the load out like that means each nation paying hits 6k tech payed total, most are holding onto well under this. It means they can buy tech from 0 as they need to send it out there by drastically reducing the cost of paying off the reps.

And finally, for the complaint about the war depleting their banks and making them unable to pay, first and foremost, if your banks are reduced to poverty after two weeks of war, your doing it wrong. And second, if Karma judges that the NPO is too beaten to pay (these are banks, if they've been banks a long time who knows, they may utterly suck at war) then its written right into the terms that the amounts can be lowered.

Edit: oh yes, it case its not obvious, the longer they fight the longer it will take them to pay off the tech portion of the reps, as more nations slip under the 1k tech mark.

This is an automated response from Cortath, an Imperial Officer of the New Pacific Order.

You have generated this response for the following reasons: [poor mathematics, efficiency estimates].

Please read this post.

Thank you for your time.

[TypoNinja]

In your opinion Azaghul, what can be done to address one of the sticking points, that is the gap that is most likely to occur between NPO nations meeting 90% compliance and the 2 week timer starting off?

I know I'm not Azaghul, but would think the answer is obvious. Thats something the NPO could have talked about before going public with the PR attempt. Now however after a PR stunt, they might find it harder to gain sympathy for their logistical difficulties in complying with the terms.

An obvious solution that could have been explored is expelling members who aren't obeying the order to leave peace mode, combined with a list of those expelled being attacked afterwards to insure its not just an attempt to get banks out of the line of fire.

Edit so as not to double post.

This is an automated response from Cortath, an Imperial Officer of the New Pacific Order.

You have generated this response for the following reasons: [poor mathematics, efficiency estimates].

Please read this post.

Thank you for your time.

What poor math? you mean multiplication? or are you claiming that asking 10% of your alliance to pay cash while 20% of it pays tech is too high an efficiency for the much bragged of Pacifican bank?

Edited June 13, 2009 by TypoNinja

[shahenshah]

I know I'm not Azaghul, but would think the answer is obvious. Thats something the NPO could have talked about before going public with the PR attempt. Now however after a PR stunt, they might find it harder to gain sympathy for their logistical difficulties in complying with the terms.

An obvious solution that could have been explored is expelling members who aren't obeying the order to leave peace mode, combined with a list of those expelled being attacked afterwards to insure its not just an attempt to get banks out of the line of fire.

Edit so as not to double post.

What poor math? you mean multiplication? or are you claiming that asking 10% of your alliance to pay cash while 20% of it pays tech is too high an efficiency for the much bragged of Pacifican bank?

NPO talked about it and there was no change, the logs are on the big thread. They were staring at a wall.

-

1. So they are being put to disadvantage for pulling a PR stunt? I thought Karma stood against all the back-channel conspiracies? Has that changed lately? Also why should Karma be worried at all about PR stunts given the moral cliff they're standing on?

2. To achieve a quick 90% compliance would likely result in alot of expulsions, that would greatly reduce their ability to pay reps don't you think? If they don't expel people quick enough, others would get battered more than they need to and again that will have negative effect in paying the reps.

Edited June 13, 2009 by shahenshah

[Rajistani]

well this certainly sounds somewhat familiar. didn't NPO pull some weak crap with FAN over peace terms that ended up in what 2 years or so of war?

FAN said they would only take white peace; NPO is paying the reps, they have no problem doing so.

Hey, I have never been a fan of huge terms. I enjoyed seeing so much white peace in this war. However, I do think that the alliances that were part of Q and 1V should have been given normal terms, and that NPO should be given the type of terms they would give if they were in Karma's shoes. If NPO was winning this war, most likely they would be giving similar terms to the alliances at war with them. NPO has proven before that white peace doesn't work on them. They came back to destroy all the alliances that gave them that white peace.

There is a time for morals. There is also a time for logic. This is the time for logic.

Also, don't tell me about who has the high horse. You sure didn't seem to care when NPO was the one giving GPA the largest terms in history.

GPA was also the largest alliance in history. Even larger than NPO is/was now/at their peak. But yes, I see your point.

No, they terms include the NPO banks who have sat on the side lines this whole time getting two weeks of war, THEN the fighting stops and rep payments begin.

PS. If a self professed bank isn't sitting on on a war chest large enough to war for 2 weeks and then rebuild themselves, said bank is weapons grade stupid.

My numbers on the reps are a wee bit more interesting.

We currently see the first three pages on NPO nations in peace mode. So let us go with the number of 60 banks just for the reps, any other nations able can help with the rebuilding of the alliance right away. Let us also assume that each nation has a DRA, NPO tells us that combat orders mean only banks are allowed to be in peace mode longer than the 5 day minimum, so again any bank without a DRA is a pretty poor excuse for a bank.

7 billion / 60 nations = $116,666,666.66~ per nation

6 aid slots * 3mil a piece = 18 mil an aid cycle

$116,666,666.66~ / 18 mil is 6.5 (i rounded up) aid cycles, or a little over two months.

The tech of course takes longer but mostly because its just harder to move tech than cash. however assuming 50 tech goes out with each cash payment about 115,000 tech is served in the same time. however thats with a very small sample size. The current number of NPO nations eligible to send tech is 181, but lets go with 150 for easy math and a lowball since who knows some people might not chip in. Now you'd also figure somebody with enough wealth to be over 1000 tech would have a DRA as well, but maybe not, in the interest of being generous we'll say only 5 aid slots for tech a nation.

150*5*50= 37,500 tech an aid cycle, or if you need it the other way 8 aid cycles to pay it off or a little under three months. If we do assume 6 aid slots for all 150 that number changes to 45,000 tech an aid cycle for 6.666~ aid cycles to pay it off. In short, the NPO could be free to terms in a hair over two months if they took the terms now and put the much vaunted Pacifican banking system to work. Also the numbers I've worked out has less than 10% of their alliance paying the cash, and about 20% of the alliance paying tech. Not exactly huge participation numbers.

Its also interesting to note that spreading the load out like that means each nation paying hits 6k tech payed total, most are holding onto well under this. It means they can buy tech from 0 as they need to send it out there by drastically reducing the cost of paying off the reps.

And finally, for the complaint about the war depleting their banks and making them unable to pay, first and foremost, if your banks are reduced to poverty after two weeks of war, your doing it wrong. And second, if Karma judges that the NPO is too beaten to pay (these are banks, if they've been banks a long time who knows, they may utterly suck at war) then its written right into the terms that the amounts can be lowered.

Edit: oh yes, it case its not obvious, the longer they fight the longer it will take them to pay off the tech portion of the reps, as more nations slip under the 1k tech mark.

You seem to have skipped a few key points:

- It can only be paid by people above 1,000 tech

- You are saying Every nation in peac emode has been in peace mode since the beginning, thats not the case, only 63 have. So your number 60, suggests all of them have about 2 bill saved, which can't be the case since some are in the middle of jumps (one is at like 5,050 iirc), which means they have little to no warchest. Otherwise they would have put it in infra, especially if they have around 2 billion. Also, if you divide the number of wonders these "banks" have with their seniority and correlate it with the fact that they have never been in war (as moo said in some logs), you will see that they haven't been buying wonders every 30 days. If they had warchests so large, it is probable that they would be doing so. Also, only 25 have bought wonders since the war started, 58 days, which means that approximately 35 don't have an excessively large war chest.

- Some others coverd by other people.

You underestimate the number of peace mode nations with really large warchests. You also have them only using 3 slots, using the rest for rebuilding. If they are using half of them for rebuilding, they'll be able to relatively quickly (within a month or so) build up a bunch of other nations with tons of economic improvements and wonders into banking range.

Your interpretation of the technology terms is simply incorrect, the nations have to have 1000 tech at the point the terms are signed, they don't have to have 1000 tech when paying the reps.

See above. Also, that 1000 tech was clarified by Londo while i was posting this in the 60 page thread. The original terms said that they had to have 1,000 tech.

I know I'm not Azaghul, but would think the answer is obvious. Thats something the NPO could have talked about before going public with the PR attempt. Now however after a PR stunt, they might find it harder to gain sympathy for their logistical difficulties in complying with the terms.

An obvious solution that could have been explored is expelling members who aren't obeying the order to leave peace mode, combined with a list of those expelled being attacked afterwards to insure its not just an attempt to get banks out of the line of fire.

I believe the problem is not the amount of reps, or the fact that nations will be attacked or forced to exit peace mode. The problem is that natoins will be forced to exit peace mode and stay out of peace mode until 90% of NPO is out of peace mode PLUS 14 days.

Edit so as not to double post.

What poor math? you mean multiplication? or are you claiming that asking 10% of your alliance to pay cash while 20% of it pays tech is too high an efficiency for the much bragged of Pacifican bank?

After 2 months of perpetual war... (73 days after these 14 days).

[TypoNinja]

If your talking surrender terms with somebody, and when they don't like it, instead of addressing concerns to you they run to the OWF are you more likely to

1. Cave and give them better terms.

or

2. Remember that you are the victor in a war they started and remind them that victors dictate terms and any concessions are an act of generosity from you.

Of course Londo told them the terms wouldn't change, he'd just finished getting 18 (i think it was 18) alliances to agree on something, He can speak for his alliance and maybe a couple of his closest allies, but not everybody. I have a hard enough time getting 4 guys together once a week for a D&D game, and you think instant answers are going to come from 18 alliance leaders who may or may not be on the same time zones?

Does it suck for the NPO that fighting continues while the admittedly slow process goes on? yes it does. But thats something they can balance agaisnt the terms, taking them now ends the fighting sooner while more talks makes the fighting go on longer.

[Qaianna]

If your talking surrender terms with somebody, and when they don't like it, instead of addressing concerns to you they run to the OWF are you more likely to

1. Cave and give them better terms.

or

2. Remember that you are the victor in a war they started and remind them that victors dictate terms and any concessions are an act of generosity from you.

Of course Londo told them the terms wouldn't change, he'd just finished getting 18 (i think it was 18) alliances to agree on something, He can speak for his alliance and maybe a couple of his closest allies, but not everybody. I have a hard enough time getting 4 guys together once a week for a D&D game, and you think instant answers are going to come from 18 alliance leaders who may or may not be on the same time zones?

Does it suck for the NPO that fighting continues while the admittedly slow process goes on? yes it does. But thats something they can balance agaisnt the terms, taking them now ends the fighting sooner while more talks makes the fighting go on longer.

..so you're saying that getting a group of people (let's say 54, assuming all 18 alliances need three people to sign off) together is difficult?

The sticking point is getting 63, and then 654, to do things. A limit of 6.9 peacemode nations (when I checked 12 hours ago, one out of the 70 at 4,000 NS was in war mode, and subject to going down in infra as a result) is pretty razor-thin. Outside factors (computer fried, away from network, visiting someone else who's in the game) can be reasons to not immediately open up the letter saying 'go to war and get pounded for two weeks'.

I also don't know how long members of that group of 69 (or the other group of 654) have been in peace mode. There's a mandatory 5 day waiting period. If someone did a strategic withdraw to peace to wait out nuclear anarchy with the full intent of rejoining, and then these terms were accepted, that's four days where that nation is physically incapable of complying with an order.

And the other sticking point is that signing off now does NOT end the fighting.

Not an edit: I didn't catch anything about outside assistance paying being prohibited. Mind if I ask why that kind of condition would be put in? Wouldn't that punish anyone who liked Pacifica enough to just shell out the aid and tech?

[Azaghul]

In your opinion Azaghul, what can be done to address one of the sticking points, that is the gap that is most likely to occur between NPO nations meeting 90% compliance and the 2 week timer starting off?

Considering large bank nations should compose the majority of that count and also be active members, I don't think it is that unreasonable to reach 90% compliance within a couple of days. Especially if they have the power to kick out and not count ghosts and those who refuse to obey orders. Regarding those who are just on vacation or something, I don't think that it's going to be over 10% and if it is they can probably reach some kind of compromise on those nations rather than throwing out the whole war thing like they want.

[kch674]

A lot of nations have six aid slots.

[Vladimir]

Of course Londo told them the terms wouldn't change, he'd just finished getting 18 (i think it was 18) alliances to agree on something, He can speak for his alliance and maybe a couple of his closest allies, but not everybody.

So you're saying that Karma's sole negotiator doesn't speak for Karma, even when he is directly asked: "We'd like it to be crystal clear: Formally, Karma has rejected the counter-offer, and refuses to alter the original terms in any way?" and responds in the affirmative along with "The group is not willing to alter the terms as they stand."?

2. Remember that you are the victor in a war they started and remind them that victors dictate terms and any concessions are an act of generosity from you.

Long has the question troubled us, does might makes right? Now we know.