NPO's Reps - An attempted unbiased View

[Denial]

I thought the reps had passed the $14 billion and 500k tech mark.

Yes, because you consistently choose to skip the "reading" and "comprehending" parts of rational discussion and head straight to posting.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Revanche

[Prime minister Johns]

I thought the reps had passed the $14 billion and 500k tech mark.

Wasn't that just the pre-terms?

[Sande]

Your maths are wrong imo.

Let's look at it at a 5k infra nation's view.

(Collection - Taxes) per one day > 3000000

Every 10 days, you have 30 mil to spent/send as reps. (And that's a minimum, a 5k infra nation earns a LOT more!)

50 tech costs 800k (if you have sent all your current tech)

You can send 15 mil and 250 tech every 10 days. Total cost about 20 mil needed every 10 days if you don't have any tech left.

Now, you definitely have some warchest yourself to spend. I know how nations work so they do have all the money needed at the right time.

You saying that you don't have the money or tech at this moment is irrelevant. As days pass, your nations will collect taxes and therefore, you will have all the money needed to pay the reps.

Also, you won't have enough slots to pay the reps in one day even if you had all the money and tech today. Just pay the reps, you can do it and you will have enough left.

Your MoF just has to organise stuff to pay the reps just as planned. Hey, I could help you do it if you ask. I have done it before.

Now, maths.

300000 tech - 6000 slots

7 bil - 2334 slots

It will take 6000 slots to pay all the reps. 2334 slots will be 3 mil + 50 tech.

180 members to pay it ---> 34 slots per member.

One nation has 5 aid slots (or 6) - 7 cycles to pay the reps. It is 2-3 months! Why the hell are you whining here? You kept GATO under terms for a whole year!

Edit: and if your nation DOES receive a beating, your warchest should cover at least the first 2 cycles. And you can regrow a bit in that time.

Even if there are 90 people left with large enough nations, 4-6 months is not a long time. Besides, the other nations can start regrowing on their own.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sande

[Baden-Württemberg]

It will take 6000 slots to pay all the reps. 2334 slots will be 3 mil + 50 tech.

180 members to pay it ---> 34 slots per member.

One nation has 5 aid slots (or 6) - 7 cycles to pay the reps. It is 2-3 months! Why the hell are you whining here? You kept GATO under terms for a whole year!

Edit: and if your nation DOES receive a beating, your warchest should cover at least the first 2 cycles. And you can regrow a bit in that time.

Even if there are 90 people left with large enough nations, 4-6 months is not a long time. Besides, the other nations can start regrowing on their own.

Not sure about that 2 - 3 months part given that only nations over 1k tech are allowed to pay, and give that they have to face another to weeks for war.

I don't think that the NPO has a problem with the amount of money or tech.

[toto]

Your maths are wrong imo.

Let's look at it at a 5k infra nation's view.

(Collection - Taxes) per one day > 3000000

Every 10 days, you have 30 mil to spent/send as reps. (And that's a minimum, a 5k infra nation earns a LOT more!)

50 tech costs 800k (if you have sent all your current tech)

You can send 15 mil and 250 tech every 10 days. Total cost about 20 mil needed every 10 days if you don't have any tech left.

Now, you definitely have some warchest yourself to spend. I know how nations work so they do have all the money needed at the right time.

You saying that you don't have the money or tech at this moment is irrelevant. As days pass, your nations will collect taxes and therefore, you will have all the money needed to pay the reps.

Also, you won't have enough slots to pay the reps in one day even if you had all the money and tech today. Just pay the reps, you can do it and you will have enough left.

Your MoF just has to organise stuff to pay the reps just as planned. Hey, I could help you do it if you ask. I have done it before.

Now, maths.

300000 tech - 6000 slots

7 bil - 2334 slots

It will take 6000 slots to pay all the reps. 2334 slots will be 3 mil + 50 tech.

180 members to pay it ---> 34 slots per member.

One nation has 5 aid slots (or 6) - 7 cycles to pay the reps. It is 2-3 months! Why the hell are you whining here? You kept GATO under terms for a whole year!

You maths is FALI, you forget to factor in the fact that only nations over 1,000 tech can send. you also fail to factor in the beatdown those 'over 5k' nations will take over 2 weeks. I also cant find any justification for the 180 members able to pay it.

[Sande]

the people who had 1000 tech at the time when the reps were announced was 181 people. So... these nations will have to pay. If they do take some large damage, they can rebuild and/or send the reps in tech, still.

[toto]

the people who had 1000 tech at the time when the reps were announced was 181 people. So... these nations will have to pay. If they do take some large damage, they can rebuild and/or send the reps in tech, still.

Looking at the proposed reps, it says 'All reparations of the 300,000 technology must be paid by nations with greater than or equal to 1000.00 technology upon the signing of these terms.'If NPO accepted right now they would not have 180 nations over 1k tech, and a good chunk of the ones over 1k have very little infra and most likely very little WC given the whole 'fighting for over 1 month' thing.

[Sande]

the ones who have 1000 infra at the moment...

7 x 250 tech = 1750

I'm sure an average NPO member can pay that.

For the 3 mil packages, I'm sure there will be more than enough members left after the 2 weeks of fighting.

[Alterego]

Yes, because you consistently choose to skip the "reading" and "comprehending" parts of rational discussion and head straight to posting.

seriously...I lol'd all over the place

[Bob Janova]

There is already a thread about this ... shame it's 60 pages

[Tojamn]

the people who had 1000 tech at the time when the reps were announced was 181 people. So... these nations will have to pay. If they do take some large damage, they can rebuild and/or send the reps in tech, still.

Re read the terms sande, it wont be 181 people, the terms state that the reps can be paid by those nations with equal too or over 1k tech at the end of the 14 day mandatory war beatdown.

not the 181 members now.

soo at the end of the 14 day mandatory beatdown war their might be say 7 or 8 people over or near 1k tech

[shahenshah]

Too far is debatable. I know I was willing to keep talking and try to get something that was palatable to everyone. But many felt we had made enough concessions. Perhaps they were right. The majority rules, in any case. And the NPO publicity stunt isn't real helpful for their cause.

Oh Londo..whats the problem with bringing the issue out in public? Was'nt it your side that whined about back-channel dramas for so long? What happened to all that cheering regarding Tattlers and TWiPs? Karma is morally righteousness and its resolve is stronger than ever, so whats the problem even if the issue is brought to the public? Aftertall, having so high confidence in your strong resolve and high moral ground, I cannot imagine even a scratch on Karma remnants.

Edited June 13, 2009 by shahenshah

[Teriethien]

I thought the reps had passed the $14 billion and 500k tech mark.

The pre-terms were supposed to have been included in the final terms.

Oh Londo..whats the problem with bringing the issue out in public? Was'nt it your side that whined about back-channel dramas for so long? What happened to all that cheering regarding Tattlers and TWiPs? Karma is morally righteousness and its resolve is stronger than ever, so whats the problem even if the issue is brought to the public? Aftertall, having so high confidence in your strong resolve and high moral ground, I cannot imagine even a scratch on Karma remnants.

I think we're all intelligent enough here to know that this is the NPO's attempt at gaining positive PR.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Teriethien

[King DrunkWino]

Oh Londo..whats the problem with bringing the issue out in public? Was'nt it your side that whined about back-channel dramas for so long? What happened to all that cheering regarding Tattlers and TWiPs? Karma is morally righteousness and its resolve is stronger than ever, so whats the problem even if the issue is brought to the public? Aftertall, having so high confidence in your strong resolve and high moral ground, I cannot imagine even a scratch on Karma remnants.

I have yet to see Londo whining about the fact that monster thread exists, only him stating that the monster thread isn't going to be a help to the NPO in further surrender discussions.

/this is an IC/OOC area, you don't have to have the switch flipped on high here.

[shahenshah]

Only in the very first two weeks of war, when Pacifica's total technology was dispersed amongst over 900 nations did your alliance lose technology that quickly. Even if every single nation currently in peace mode comes out and fights, it is highly unlikely, at this stage of the conflict, 150,000 technology will be destroyed in just two weeks. All public calculations from Pacificans declaring how dramatic their losses would be from two weeks of fighting have each made the assumption that every single ground, air and missile attack will be successful. Anyone that has had the least bit of experience with the CN battle system would realise that even when you're fighting against the odds, there are plenty of times where you successfully defend yourself and greatly limit damage.

What people seem to be missing is pounding wont be 2 weeks, there will be a period between 90% compliance and 2 week trigger starting, Its ridiculous to demand somehow to get specific 17x nations online on one day...so Damages will be in excess of Karma's conservative estimates of 2 weeks curb stomping.

[Teriethien]

What people seem to be missing is pounding wont be 2 weeks, there will be a period between 90% compliance and 2 week trigger starting, Its ridiculous to demand somehow to get specific 17x nations online on one day...so Damages will be in excess of Karma's conservative estimates of 2 weeks curb stomping.

This is a good point and where I think Karma overstepped. It would have been even better to discuss with Karma and work out something mutually acceptable, however.

[Tojamn]

What people seem to be missing is pounding wont be 2 weeks, there will be a period between 90% compliance and 2 week trigger starting, Its ridiculous to demand somehow to get specific 17x nations online on one day...so Damages will be in excess of Karma's conservative estimates of 2 weeks curb stomping.

Thank you Shahen

[shahenshah]

I have yet to see Londo whining about the fact that monster thread exists, only him stating that the monster thread isn't going to be a help to the NPO in further surrender discussions.

/this is an IC/OOC area, you don't have to have the switch flipped on high here.

I referred to his side in General, not himself . I did not understand your point regarding OOC/IC btw.

I think we're all intelligent enough here to know that this is the NPO's attempt at gaining positive PR.

I am sorry I did not get your point. TWiP and Tattler had everything to do with PR...where sensitive issues were brought to light and cheered by thunderous applause...by Karma's side in general, so its the same things, should not be a problem, afterall, the principles are not something that change when poisoned by power do they.

Regarding PR stunts being helpful or not..I would like to point out thats what NPO thought too..some of us, included I thought so too. But that believe has changed, PR matters, attempts to ignore it have not worked well in past..You can cite Hegemony...you can cite me as an example..I went from 7k to 67 and I used to be of same opinion...PR isnt helpfull bla bla this bla bla that. It matters, you dont agree or not admit that is entirely another matter and I respect that choice. But...'been there, done that', PR matters. Some of the key personalities of Karma have disowned these terms, you know who they are, forget about us neutrals or people fighting against you like TPF etc...people within Karma are moving away from these terms.

Edited June 13, 2009 by shahenshah

[Tojamn]

This is a good point and where I think Karma overstepped. It would have been even better to discuss with Karma and work out something mutually acceptable, however.

that is our problem Teriethien, karma dont want too discuss and work it out. as stated in the original thread by the KARMA members the terms are staying as they are..

[King DrunkWino]

I did not understand your point regarding OOC/IC btw.

I guess it depends on how much in terms of role playing you do or try to do. In my case, my IC self is appalled by those terms since they're just gonna lead to further wars. My OOC self is a little more understanding. The NPO has a whole lot of blood on their hands from over the years and I honestly think that the folks fighting them right now realize that unless the NPO is crushed right here and now, it won't be long before the NPO comes for vengeance.

So, if you are trying to put some sort of differences between your IC nation ruler and OOC player, I'm just saying that this particular forum is more of an OOC place where the player can talk as opposed to AP where the IC nation ruler is your voice.

[shahenshah]

This is a good point and where I think Karma overstepped. It would have been even better to discuss with Karma and work out something mutually acceptable, however.

When confronted with this, I heard some Tom, Dick or was it Harry? mention something along the lines like -Dont blame us for their incompetency.- In purely technical and utopian sense, its true, in reality...you all know what that statement amounts to.

[shahenshah]

I guess it depends on how much in terms of role playing you do or try to do. In my case, my IC self is appalled by those terms since they're just gonna lead to further wars. My OOC self is a little more understanding. The NPO has a whole lot of blood on their hands from over the years and I honestly think that the folks fighting them right now realize that unless the NPO is crushed right here and now, it won't be long before the NPO comes for vengeance.

So, if you are trying to put some sort of differences between your IC nation ruler and OOC player, I'm just saying that this particular forum is more of an OOC place where the player can talk as opposed to AP where the IC nation ruler is your voice.

Ah ok, in that case I was generally referring to IC stuff as many above me were doing the same in similar context. I believed the culture was when one goes OOC, they use the OOC tag or flip around, seldom I see IC tag being used, my bad if I created some sort of confusion in that regard.

NPO has already agreed to 300k Tech and 8Bn King DrunkWino, thats alot of time, please ignore the utopian mathematics where some kid will come and post theoretical number backed by 100% efficiency, where does that happen in real world? maybe if NPO was Gramlins or TOP styled alliance..once could make that argument...basically What NPO I think are disagreeing to is being put responsible for something that is not in their control..and if it goes back, they pay the price i.e. get specific 17x people online for a small window of time. You know if that goes wrong, NPO will be stuck in endless ZI with their nations unable to pay the reps for God knows how long.

So I disagree with your opinion that NPO will come back before long. Even if Karma takes 8bn and 300k tech, its going to be a long while that NPO is anywhere near strong enough to avenge anything.

Lets say even if 8 months from now, NPO is back and somehow, manages to create a new pole in international relations, is this not what many demanded?

Edited June 13, 2009 by shahenshah

[Teriethien]

that is our problem Teriethien, karma dont want too discuss and work it out. as stated in the original thread by the KARMA members the terms are staying as they are..

Actually,

NPO was told that the counter-offer was rejected for now, and that it probably wouldn't be accepted down the line either, but maybe.

Although I would agree that Karma likely won't change its stance on requiring most of the NPO to exit peace mode first, I do not believe 2 weeks of war is the reason behind the NPO's refusal. From what I can tell in the original thread, NPO is concerned that Karma will use the 90% figure to ensure that the Pacificans exiting peace mode gets beaten up for prolonged periods. And this is something that the NPO should have talked to Karma about. Something could have been worked out or clarified regarding the logisitical difficulties of moving virtually everyone out of peace mode and the conditions under which the timer could have started.

[Systemfailure]

NPO were the #1 alliance in the game before this war, you dont just get there by luck.

if they bite the bullet now and take the terms offered there's no reason they cant climb back up, its just a question of whether or not they will drag out the fighting and further reduce their power base.

[King DrunkWino]

heh, you can drop the King. The thing I was trying to say is that many of the alliances fighting the NPO know the NPO's track record. Pacifica has been pretty proud of it up till now, and that is "mess with us and we'll obliterate you." I honestly think that along with the more brutal parts of their history are fueling these kinds of demands. I haven't run the math (and I'm not going to ) so I really couldn't tell you if it's theoretically possible or not. All I can tell you is that people don't want to have to deal with the NPO threat for a long long time.

The interesting thing to me, which is just a sidebar to this, is the TPF situation as a comparison. You go back in time to when this shindig kicked off, you'd find most people on the Karma side wanting TPF just as demolished at the end of things as they wanted the NPO. Then comes mhawk who basically put a whole new face on TPF in the middle of the fight. Now, I can imagine, there a lot of those folks that wanted them buried have a much different perspective on the whole thing.

One of those tidbits that may just interest me.