Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Tygaland]

NPO: I have the right to kill anyone I want.

Karma: S'okay, sunshine. We've got the right to kill you too.

NPO: But, but, that's so unfair! WAAUUUGGGGHHHHH! You're not the police! WAAUUUGGGGHHHHH! How dare you treat us the same way we treat everyone else? WAAUUUGGGGHHHHH!

I think that about sums up this thread. Harsh terms were fine with the NPO and assorted hangers-on until they were on the receiving end (leaving out that the terms they have been offered are not as horrific as those they readily handed out). Then it is unethical and unfair. If they were truly concerned about ethics and fairness they'd not be in this situation they find themselves in. Add to that the NPO were once again the aggressors in this war and are now trying to portray themselves as victims of big bad Karma.

Heh.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Tygaland

[WarriorConcept]

I would say at the very least, [OOC] The way the game works is hugely different (wonders etc)[/OOC] and the fact that it's much eaisier to rebuild, but then on the other hand, I'd say warfare is more distructive as well.

Exactly, warchests are a ton higher and there are more wonders/improvements around now. Regardless of that NPO is still one of the largest alliances, and if left to their own would rise to prominence much too quickly for their opponent's taste.

[raincoat]

It is not meant to spell out a complete process to a resolution. It was meant to address the current problem with offering contradictory terms in terms of a rights-based argument. Also, your post reflects that you, or so I think, agree with what my post has said, only that it lacks the formerly mentioned process. I concur that process would be difficult to conduct. At the very least, I feel that the first thing that would need to be down is agree to a certain set of rules, by both sides, involving how terms will be laid out. Firstly, the terms would not have to be in breech of the ability of any alliance to remain a sovereign entity. It must only ask an alliance to pay indemnities which force it to bear sufficient burden to pay for the costs of this war, and some additional force past transgressions, but never in a way which would be so extreme as to prevent repayment or seriously hinder the alliance's ability to survive or maintain its sovereignty during the repayment. Finally, such terms must never demand an alliance continue allowing its regular nations, who have committed no war crimes but being regular members, to forcefully allow themselves to be attacked and looted.

1. It does not breech their ability to remain sovereign. NPO retains full control of their alliance outside of the requirement to pay said terms and demilitirization of forces for a set period of time. Loss of sovereignty would require loss of NPOs ability to govern. No terms stop this.

2. Survival- They will be able to survival and pay terms. Its entirely possible to do so, just difficult. So that criteria is met.

3. This only leaves the attack on regular members. To this I see having regular members attacked in surrender terms as no different than them being attacked during war. Just because an alliance went into peace mode does not mean they should be exempt from the fighting. Hundreds of regular members have been attacked during the war, this is no different. If you join an alliance, expect to be responsible for its actions.

PS"forcefully allow" is a contridiction. Allow involves having a privilige, forcefully means you are required to do so.

Edit: On three I dont see how this falls into a rights based argument. There is no such right as the unalienable right to remain in peace mode.

Edited June 16, 2009 by raincoat

[bbrownso]

Yes. The NPO will come back and take the alliances that attacked it down one by one, even if it takes years. Glad to know that you understand.

The power divide is so great that even without the additional terms on the reps, NPO will be struggling to gain a power base to become the superpower it was before this war. If the alliances comprising Karma have any ability to come together again, the NPO won't be a threat to them for quite awhile.

[Groucho Marx]

The 200th page of this post is brought to you by Uncle Same

<image>

Uncle Same?

[mykep]

Uncle Same?

Ninja Edit

[harris2004]

I would like to see these terms forced on KARMA members by other KARMA members one day.

[Nintenderek]

The 200th page of this post is brought to you by Uncle Sam

*Image*

This is the first topic I've ever been here for to reach 200 pages. Obviously, it's been a while. That being said, it's sad that the last 200 pages are all the same thing. NPO people whining about how unfair Karma is, and Karma using something called logic to prove them wrong.

[mykep]

I would like to see these terms forced on KARMA members by other KARMA members one day.

Most likely white peace.

[Ellis]

Exactly, warchests are a ton higher and there are more wonders/improvements around now. Regardless of that NPO is still one of the largest alliances, and if left to their own would rise to prominence much too quickly for their opponent's taste.

Draw whatever conclusions you like from the fact that it's different, but I'm saying in some ways, it's nearly a whole different [OOC] game [/

OOC]

[The FSM]

The power divide is so great that even without the additional terms on the reps, NPO will be struggling to gain a power base to become the superpower it was before this war. If the alliances comprising Karma have any ability to come together again, the NPO won't be a threat to them for quite awhile.

That is the kicker right there, do the Karma alliances have the ability to come together again in 2 years when NPO comes roaring back?

I tend to believe that when this multipolar business comes along Digiterra will essentially start squabbling with itsself and lose any ability to look down the road and prepare for the danger that is coming.

[Voodoo Nova]

Indeed, because the world of CN from 3 years ago is absolutely relevant to the discussion of what to do today.

The present is a direct result from the past.

[WarriorConcept]

Draw whatever conclusions you like from the fact that it's different, but I'm saying in some ways, it's nearly a whole different [OOC] game [/

OOC]

Having been around for a few years, it's still essentially the same.

[Nintenderek]

Indeed, because the world of CN from 3 years ago is absolutely relevant to the discussion of what to do today.

What is happening today is almost exactly what happened to NPO in the past. In the past though, the CoLUEition made a big mistake. They underestimated NPO, and it cost them. The leaders of Karma seem to have learned from this mistake. To say that GW1 is irrelevant just shows ignorance, as it's part of the reason NPO is receiving such terms.

[Delta1212]

The power divide is so great that even without the additional terms on the reps, NPO will be struggling to gain a power base to become the superpower it was before this war. If the alliances comprising Karma have any ability to come together again, the NPO won't be a threat to them for quite awhile.

The short of it is that they don't.

[raincoat]

That is the kicker right there, do the Karma alliances have the ability to come together again in 2 years when NPO comes roaring back?

I tend to believe that when this multipolar business comes along Digiterra will essentially start squabbling with itsself and lose any ability to look down the road and prepare for the danger that is coming.

This is based on the assumption NPO will shoot straight back up to the top after surrender terms are done. I think if sufficiently weakened they will not become a hyperpower again. NPO has lost many of the key members that got it there.

[Roadie]

That is the kicker right there, do the Karma alliances have the ability to come together again in 2 years when NPO comes roaring back?

I tend to believe that when this multipolar business comes along Digiterra will essentially start squabbling with itsself and lose any ability to look down the road and prepare for the danger that is coming.

Most players never had that ability anyway. And some of them that have it to an extent have already lost it to the here-and-now.

[muffasamini]

This is the first topic I've ever been here for to reach 200 pages. Obviously, it's been a while. That being said, it's sad that the last 200 pages are all the same thing. NPO people whining about how unfair Karma is, and Karma using something called logic to prove them wrong.

Well, I'm going to introduce my unique brand of logic, called understanding and not just closing your ears and reapiting the same thing over again. If it was actually used on both sides, I think its pretty safe to say that the end result would be to realize that

Both Sides are Correct. And both sides are exaggerating, because as I've said before, you either have to lie or exaggerate to get heard here.

Karma is correct, we've been successful (you term success as being evil, but semantics) and its time for them to curb stomp us. We "need" to pay some massive reps here. Giving us white peace would be tactically idiotic. But NPO is also right, we cant physically in good faith accept these terms (the side clauses, not the amounts), they are simply logistically impossible.

<And I still think its correct that really, it is kind of slimy to say that you "have to come out of war for two weeks minimum," and "*you* can help your alliance pay reps, but *you* cant," no matter how much you say we deserve it.>

Solution, slightly amend the terms to be possible, reissue, work out a way to be able to dynamically edit and approve term proposals until yall find one that works, and doesnt end in NPO disbandment or eternal war. Done.

NPO accepts it, were crushed for quite some time while yall can get to fighting each other. No matter what you say, the NPO is about to be economically crushed for quite some time

Edited June 16, 2009 by muffasamini

[bbrownso]

The present is a direct result from the past.

So let's use the far past to determine how to do things now? Nice thinking progressively.

[OOC] the game have changed in many ways since GWI. More importantly, nations are much bigger and there are more of them.[OOC] It's foolish to think NPO will post a threat any time soon. And quite frankly, the only thing Karma is doing is further driving in a desire of revenge with their antics. Karma will only have itself to blame if they get rolled down the line.

[Nintenderek]

So let's use the far past to determine how to do things now? Nice thinking progressively.

[OOC] the game have changed in many ways since GWI. More importantly, nations are much bigger and there are more of them.[OOC] It's foolish to think NPO will post a threat any time soon. And quite frankly, the only thing Karma is doing is further driving in a desire of revenge with their antics. Karma will only have itself to blame if they get rolled down the line.

They would have gotten rolled anyway had they given NPO white peace. This is proven by the past. The game may have changed, but the politics have not, If given white peace, NPO would have found a way back, and would attack the people giving them the white peace.

[Kristospherein]

I think that about sums up this thread. Harsh terms were fine with the NPO and assorted hangers-on until they were on the receiving end (leaving out that the terms they have been offered are not as horrific as those they readily handed out). Then it is unethical and unfair. If they were truly concerned about ethics and fairness they'd not be in this situation they find themselves in. Add to that the NPO were once again the aggressors in this war and are now trying to portray themselves as victims of big bad Karma.

Heh.

How exactly could you sum up 200 pages of opinions from 2 mainly divergent sources into a single sentence that comments only on one side of the argument? I tend to disagree.

[Nintenderek]

How exactly could you sum up 200 pages of opinions from 2 mainly divergent sources into a single sentence that comments only on one side of the argument? I tend to disagree.

He just did and there's nothing to really disagree with. Just read the last 202 pages yourself.

[Kristospherein]

I would like to see these terms forced on KARMA members by other KARMA members one day.

Oh it will happen.

[WarriorConcept]

Oh it will happen.

Just like how Valhalla, GGA, etc got terrible terms, right?

[TypoNinja]

Lots of REALLY stupid !@#$. over many pages.

I'm going to my alliance forms right now, and I'm going to argue for upping the terms. Just to compensate for 200+ pages of sheer stupidity from the NPO (mostly yours, you pretty much single handedly prove the wisdom of the initial gag order) and its mouth pieces. I'm gonna push for decomming WRC's for at least the amount of time it takes you to pay off reps, but I'll probably settle for another billion or two.